I think there are a few reasons why Jackie Robinson is so well celebrated and other players (and races) aren't.
-He played in a huge market, on a legendary team, just as the tv era was starting. That distorts his significance to some degree. If he had played in Kansas City in 1937, it wouldn't be as celebrated. Consider Larry Doby in Cleveland.
Or the first black NBA player or first black NFL player (which you rarely if ever hear mentioned). There's a certain romance with the Dodgers.
-American History (the kind I heard in high school 10 years ago) is very, very simplified and glossed over.
It's Christopher Columbus, George Washington, Abe Lincoln, the depression...Jackie Robinson. It's neat, feel good history. It's hard to hear objective, well rounded history from a government school.
-And then all these media and political agenda's (black history month).
Publius, good catch on the constitution. Every founding father realized the contradiction of their words of freedom on one hand, and holding slaves on the other. They basically had a choice, continue with slavery and deal with it later, or do what they did and create a country. The consitution would never have been accepted if slavery were clearly banned at that moment. Chaos could very well have been the result if no constitution had been accepted(of course it reached a head 60 odd years later).
In 1783 in the closing moments of the war, chaos had already almost reigned because the Continental Congress could not pay the soldiers and officers. A military coup was in the works, and in this hour George Washington probably had one of his greatest moments ever with the Newburgh address, basically blowing out the flames of impending doom. It is in this light one has to think how fragile the holding together of the country was, and how just making a blanket simple remark that abolishing slavery right away should have been done, as if the founding fathers were simply idiots or totally greedy. They were certainly out for money, but they also had some very nice virtues and philosophies in making a country.
But again, everyone is saying how black America is the only one that needs special recognition. Hey, many African American's are pretty darn well off right now. Their ancestors had it rough, but they have every advantage now(and even then some). The rest is up to them and their will to do well just like anybody else. My Italian ancestors didn't exactly have it easy in the beginning of this country either, but I suspect we are far better off having our ancestors endure some early struggles, as their family line certainly did better off then if they stayed in their country of origin. Just imagine if all minorities had never endured and struggles here, and they continued to stay forever in their original country...pretty harsh reality of that alternative for them.
Yet again, Native Americnas had it FAR WORSE than black america, far worse...and they never recovered. I salute Louis Sockalexis, a man who's people and culture endured more pain than any other society in possibly the history of the world, for playing pro ball in spite of many jeers and many not wanting him there. He was the first Native American to play pro ball.
To the first grader who told me "tough luck", and "life isn't fair"....when does recess start?
<< <i>To the first grader who told me "tough luck", and "life isn't fair"....when does recess start? >>
Here is what I said: "So what - life isn't fair. To recognize the significance of what Jackie Robinson did takes nothing away from anyone else." I don't think that sounds like a first grader - perhaps you did not read it right. Again I will ask, "How does the recognition of Jackie Robinson take away from anyone else?" Does the recognition diminish the contributions of anyone else? I also said: "Is it a shame that we don't recognize the achievements of some other great people? Absolutely!"
So I agree it's unfair - but JR still deserves the recognition for his courage and character. As do others, but let's not take away from one because the others have been neglected. Is the only choice to honor everyone or no one? I can see where that would go.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>My question is - why isn't Branch Rickey being honored just as much? I can hear it now - "Oh my gosh! Branch Rickey is a white man! How dare we honor him." The fact is that Branch Rickey had as much to do with breaking the color barrier as Jackie Robinson did. I am not saying to take away from Jackie Robinson. What I am saying is that Branch Rickey should have some recognition too. He made it possible.
In virtually every article or story I've read about Jackie Robinson breaking into MLB in 1947, Branch Rickey is invariably also mentioned, so your claim that he is not being credited or acknowledged for his part is false. Also, Branch Rickey did not not have to endure nearly as much hatred and abuse that Robinson did when he played during that time. To suggest that he did, is just being ignorant of the facts. >>
I did not say that Mr Rickey wasn't mentioned because I know he has been. I also said the very thing that you did about Jackie Robinson having to endure a lot of hatred.
Being MENTIONED and being HONORED are 2 totally different things entirely. I think that the BOTH should be HONORED, not just Jackie Robinson by himself. If that was a black GM that paved the way like that, he would be celebrated just as much as Jackie Robinson.
By the way, if any of you take it that this post (or my previous post) was in any way a slam towards Jackie Robinson, then you need to go back and reread what I posted. Jackie Robinson needs to be honored for what he did for the game of baseball and for what he endured. Branch Rickey (and Happy Chandler) need to be honored for making it possible. I'm just saying that the level of honor is not equal. Then again, maybe the honor towards Branch Rickey doesn't need to be as much as the honor for Jackie Robinson (I don't know for sure), but I do know that he should be honored a heck of a lot more than he is.
Jackie Robinson needs to be honored for what he did for the game of baseball and for what he endured. Branch Rickey (and Happy Chandler) need to be honored for making it possible. I'm just saying that the level of honor is not equal.
I understand your point there, but Robinson endured much more venom, abuse and hatred as a ballplayer than either Chandler or Rickey did by signing him (though I'm sure they endured their fair share of insults, too), so I believe he deserves the greater honor to that extent. I do agree with you that Rickey, Chandler and the Dodgers ownership also deserve a great deal of credit, too, and Rickey at least does get his fair share from baseball historians and writers, IMO. Jackie Robinson personified the definition of skill and grace under extraordinarily difficult circumstances, and for that he also deserves the accolades he rightfully receives.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Spoken like a white law enforcement officer from the South. >>
You are so good at judging people aren't you Koby? That's why you have the poor reputation that you do. You used to be known here as PSA's puppet. Now you are just pitiful. Not that it matters much to you but I was a Law Enforcement officer for years in NJ (which you may not know but its NOT in the South). I moved south when I was 27 and I have been bringing "Jersey Justice" down here for 10 years so to assume that I am a typical "white law enforcement officer from the South" is dead wrong. But you just go on with your misconceptions. Every time you open your mouth, you spew crap.
<< <i>Publius, good catch on the constitution. Every founding father realized the contradiction of their words of freedom on one hand, and holding slaves on the other. They basically had a choice, continue with slavery and deal with it later, or do what they did and create a country. The consitution would never have been accepted if slavery were clearly banned at that moment. Chaos could very well have been the result if no constitution had been accepted(of course it reached a head 60 odd years later).
In 1783 in the closing moments of the war, chaos had already almost reigned because the Continental Congress could not pay the soldiers and officers. A military coup was in the works, and in this hour George Washington probably had one of his greatest moments ever with the Newburgh address, basically blowing out the flames of impending doom. It is in this light one has to think how fragile the holding together of the country was, and how just making a blanket simple remark that abolishing slavery right away should have been done, as if the founding fathers were simply idiots or totally greedy. They were certainly out for money, but they also had some very nice virtues and philosophies in making a country.
But again, everyone is saying how black America is the only one that needs special recognition. Hey, many African American's are pretty darn well off right now. Their ancestors had it rough, but they have every advantage now(and even then some). The rest is up to them and their will to do well just like anybody else. My Italian ancestors didn't exactly have it easy in the beginning of this country either, but I suspect we are far better off having our ancestors endure some early struggles, as their family line certainly did better off then if they stayed in their country of origin. Just imagine if all minorities had never endured and struggles here, and they continued to stay forever in their original country...pretty harsh reality of that alternative for them.
Yet again, Native Americnas had it FAR WORSE than black america, far worse...and they never recovered. I salute Louis Sockalexis, a man who's people and culture endured more pain than any other society in possibly the history of the world, for playing pro ball in spite of many jeers and many not wanting him there. He was the first Native American to play pro ball.
To the first grader who told me "tough luck", and "life isn't fair"....when does recess start? >>
Good pull. I agree with you totally. To go from " we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with... unalienable rights... life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" I dont see an asterisk after that that says, white males who own property only. Sadly, there was an asterisk.
Great thread, great points, all the way around the horn. Anytime you talk politics, religion, abortion, tempers will flare, opinions are very strong.
Comments
-He played in a huge market, on a legendary team, just as the tv era was starting. That distorts his significance to some degree. If he had played in Kansas City in 1937, it wouldn't be as celebrated. Consider Larry Doby in Cleveland.
Or the first black NBA player or first black NFL player (which you rarely if ever hear mentioned). There's a certain romance with the Dodgers.
-American History (the kind I heard in high school 10 years ago) is very, very simplified and glossed over.
It's Christopher Columbus, George Washington, Abe Lincoln, the depression...Jackie Robinson. It's neat, feel good history. It's hard to hear objective, well rounded history from a government school.
-And then all these media and political agenda's (black history month).
In 1783 in the closing moments of the war, chaos had already almost reigned because the Continental Congress could not pay the soldiers and officers. A military coup was in the works, and in this hour George Washington probably had one of his greatest moments ever with the Newburgh address, basically blowing out the flames of impending doom. It is in this light one has to think how fragile the holding together of the country was, and how just making a blanket simple remark that abolishing slavery right away should have been done, as if the founding fathers were simply idiots or totally greedy. They were certainly out for money, but they also had some very nice virtues and philosophies in making a country.
But again, everyone is saying how black America is the only one that needs special recognition. Hey, many African American's are pretty darn well off right now. Their ancestors had it rough, but they have every advantage now(and even then some). The rest is up to them and their will to do well just like anybody else. My Italian ancestors didn't exactly have it easy in the beginning of this country either, but I suspect we are far better off having our ancestors endure some early struggles, as their family line certainly did better off then if they stayed in their country of origin. Just imagine if all minorities had never endured and struggles here, and they continued to stay forever in their original country...pretty harsh reality of that alternative for them.
Yet again, Native Americnas had it FAR WORSE than black america, far worse...and they never recovered. I salute Louis Sockalexis, a man who's people and culture endured more pain than any other society in possibly the history of the world, for playing pro ball in spite of many jeers and many not wanting him there. He was the first Native American to play pro ball.
To the first grader who told me "tough luck", and "life isn't fair"....when does recess start?
<< <i>To the first grader who told me "tough luck", and "life isn't fair"....when does recess start? >>
Here is what I said: "So what - life isn't fair. To recognize the significance of what Jackie Robinson did takes nothing away from anyone else."
I don't think that sounds like a first grader - perhaps you did not read it right. Again I will ask, "How does the recognition of Jackie Robinson take away from anyone else?" Does the recognition diminish the contributions of anyone else? I also said: "Is it a shame that we don't recognize the achievements of some other great people? Absolutely!"
So I agree it's unfair - but JR still deserves the recognition for his courage and character. As do others, but let's not take away from one because the others have been neglected. Is the only choice to honor everyone or no one? I can see where that would go.
<< <i>
<< <i>I reckon I am >>
Spoken like a white law enforcement officer from the South. >>
spoken like a person thats never spent much time in the South..
<< <i>So, are there any other groups out there that want to feel sorry for themselves today??? Join the pity pool... >>
I'd like to put in a word for one armed Islamic midgets.
Some dated obscure board humor from a now banned member.
Fight the power. Huhh.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I reckon I am >>
Spoken like a white law enforcement officer from the South. >>
spoken like a person thats never spent much time in the South.. >>
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw!
PS 100
<< <i>My question is - why isn't Branch Rickey being honored just as much? I can hear it now - "Oh my gosh! Branch Rickey is a white man! How dare we honor him." The fact is that Branch Rickey had as much to do with breaking the color barrier as Jackie Robinson did. I am not saying to take away from Jackie Robinson. What I am saying is that Branch Rickey should have some recognition too. He made it possible.
In virtually every article or story I've read about Jackie Robinson breaking into MLB in 1947, Branch Rickey is invariably also mentioned, so your claim that he is not being credited or acknowledged for his part is false. Also, Branch Rickey did not not have to endure nearly as much hatred and abuse that Robinson did when he played during that time. To suggest that he did, is just being ignorant of the facts. >>
I did not say that Mr Rickey wasn't mentioned because I know he has been. I also said the very thing that you did about Jackie Robinson having to endure a lot of hatred.
Being MENTIONED and being HONORED are 2 totally different things entirely. I think that the BOTH should be HONORED, not just Jackie Robinson by himself. If that was a black GM that paved the way like that, he would be celebrated just as much as Jackie Robinson.
By the way, if any of you take it that this post (or my previous post) was in any way a slam towards Jackie Robinson, then you need to go back and reread what I posted. Jackie Robinson needs to be honored for what he did for the game of baseball and for what he endured. Branch Rickey (and Happy Chandler) need to be honored for making it possible. I'm just saying that the level of honor is not equal. Then again, maybe the honor towards Branch Rickey doesn't need to be as much as the honor for Jackie Robinson (I don't know for sure), but I do know that he should be honored a heck of a lot more than he is.
Shane
I understand your point there, but Robinson endured much more venom, abuse and hatred as a ballplayer than either Chandler or Rickey did by signing him (though I'm sure they endured their fair share of insults, too), so I believe he deserves the greater honor to that extent. I do agree with you that Rickey, Chandler and the Dodgers ownership also deserve a great deal of credit, too, and Rickey at least does get his fair share from baseball historians and writers, IMO. Jackie Robinson personified the definition of skill and grace under extraordinarily difficult circumstances, and for that he also deserves the accolades he rightfully receives.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>I reckon I am >>
Spoken like a white law enforcement officer from the South. >>
You are so good at judging people aren't you Koby? That's why you have the poor reputation that you do. You used to be known here as PSA's puppet. Now you are just pitiful. Not that it matters much to you but I was a Law Enforcement officer for years in NJ (which you may not know but its NOT in the South). I moved south when I was 27 and I have been bringing "Jersey Justice" down here for 10 years so to assume that I am a typical "white law enforcement officer from the South" is dead wrong. But you just go on with your misconceptions. Every time you open your mouth, you spew crap.
<< <i>Publius, good catch on the constitution. Every founding father realized the contradiction of their words of freedom on one hand, and holding slaves on the other. They basically had a choice, continue with slavery and deal with it later, or do what they did and create a country. The consitution would never have been accepted if slavery were clearly banned at that moment. Chaos could very well have been the result if no constitution had been accepted(of course it reached a head 60 odd years later).
In 1783 in the closing moments of the war, chaos had already almost reigned because the Continental Congress could not pay the soldiers and officers. A military coup was in the works, and in this hour George Washington probably had one of his greatest moments ever with the Newburgh address, basically blowing out the flames of impending doom. It is in this light one has to think how fragile the holding together of the country was, and how just making a blanket simple remark that abolishing slavery right away should have been done, as if the founding fathers were simply idiots or totally greedy. They were certainly out for money, but they also had some very nice virtues and philosophies in making a country.
But again, everyone is saying how black America is the only one that needs special recognition. Hey, many African American's are pretty darn well off right now. Their ancestors had it rough, but they have every advantage now(and even then some). The rest is up to them and their will to do well just like anybody else. My Italian ancestors didn't exactly have it easy in the beginning of this country either, but I suspect we are far better off having our ancestors endure some early struggles, as their family line certainly did better off then if they stayed in their country of origin. Just imagine if all minorities had never endured and struggles here, and they continued to stay forever in their original country...pretty harsh reality of that alternative for them.
Yet again, Native Americnas had it FAR WORSE than black america, far worse...and they never recovered. I salute Louis Sockalexis, a man who's people and culture endured more pain than any other society in possibly the history of the world, for playing pro ball in spite of many jeers and many not wanting him there. He was the first Native American to play pro ball.
To the first grader who told me "tough luck", and "life isn't fair"....when does recess start? >>
Good pull. I agree with you totally. To go from " we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with... unalienable rights... life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" I dont see an asterisk after that that says, white males who own property only. Sadly, there was an asterisk.
Great thread, great points, all the way around the horn. Anytime you talk politics, religion, abortion, tempers will flare, opinions are very strong.
Thank you guys
joe