@DoubleEagle59 said:
I'm 60 years old, retired, but when I was
Bottom line.....it's really no one's business what a dealer pays for something.
I am just trying to figure out a fair offer knowing how much the dealer paid in auction.
Why does that matter, what only matters is what the coin is worth?
I sometimes buy coins at auction from a horrible photo. The reason the auction went off so low is because of poor photography. The coin is worth way more than the auction record shows.
@Abuelo said:
I am just trying to figure out a fair offer knowing how much the dealer paid in auction.
What someone actually pays and what they're willing to pay are not necessarily the same thing. And the dealer's pricing is almost certainly going to be based on the latter number, not the former.
True, but in @Abuelo's example and mine above, the dealer is probably "fishing", I can tell you that I have bought a lot more coins of the type I collect than any dealer has sold and I don't know the "real" value either because there isn't one, including for the reasons you gave.
Sometimes I don't even know what I am willing to pay until I am bidding because I hardly ever buy from dealers at "retail" since they almost never offer it. In the example I used, I'd guess "market" on this four figure coin is probably about one-third the dealer ask price on their website. The coin previously sold for about 45% of their ask but this included multiple bidding increments where he and I were the only bidders. I make this assumption, as I have been able to win practically every single coin I wanted to buy the last few years within the price range I was willing and expected to pay.
@WCC said:
True, but in @Abuelo's example and mine above, the dealer is probably "fishing"...
Unless you know for a fact what the dealer was willing to pay (not what he did pay), it's not possible to conclude with any reliability what the dealer is doing.
Abuelo's example: I went to PCGS to check the certificate and saw how much it sold last year (2019) in auction, and how much the seller wanted (nearly 3 times the money).
Perhaps the dealer actually bid closer to the "3 times" amount than what he won the coin for. If he's bidding that much, it's not likely he's doing so in order to go fishing.
@DoubleEagle59 said:
I'm 60 years old, retired, but when I was
Bottom line.....it's really no one's business what a dealer pays for something.
But that is the origin of my question. Nowadays, you can find out how much they paid. Now, I am not, as a customer, interested on deciding the margins of the dealer. I am just trying to figure out a fair offer knowing how much the dealer paid in auction. That was all. Particularly for coins that are not selling all the time but come every other year or less frequently.
and that's my point, it's none of your business in knowing what the dealer paid for the coin.
Your business is to educate yourself on the coin you're interested in and knowing the proper, fair price to pay for it.
Knowing the dealer's cost is the wrong way to approach it.
I agree with a lot of what's been written in this thread, but not this. If I'm about to enter into a price negotiation, it absolutely is my business to know what the dealer paid for a coin if that info is publicly available. That doesn't mean we'll end up agreeing on a sale, but among other advantages it offers me, it gives me a likely floor on the amount he'll accept.
Sadly, the assumption by many is that some dealers make their money on the front end by buying as cheaply as possible from widows and those needing to unload quickly.
@CoinJunkie said:
I agree with a lot of what's been written in this thread, but not this. If I'm about to enter into a price negotiation, it absolutely is my business to know what the dealer paid for a coin if that info is publicly available.
Agreed. There's nothing wrong with using whatever information is available in order to arrive at a value for the coin.
I'd like to point out just because you know what the coin sold for in auction doesn't mean the dealer bought it in the auction. Last year I bought a coin at a show and I was the 3rd dealer to own it from a recent auction. Guess what? I sold it to another dealer making him the 4th in the progression!
@DoubleEagle59 said:
I'm 60 years old, retired, but when I was
Bottom line.....it's really no one's business what a dealer pays for something.
But that is the origin of my question. Nowadays, you can find out how much they paid. Now, I am not, as a customer, interested on deciding the margins of the dealer. I am just trying to figure out a fair offer knowing how much the dealer paid in auction. That was all. Particularly for coins that are not selling all the time but come every other year or less frequently.
@amwldcoin said:
I'd like to point out just because you know what the coin sold for in auction doesn't mean the dealer bought it in the auction. Last year I bought a coin at a show and I was the 3rd dealer to own it from a recent auction. Guess what? I sold it to another dealer making him the 4th in the progression!
@DoubleEagle59 said:
I'm 60 years old, retired, but when I was
Bottom line.....it's really no one's business what a dealer pays for something.
But that is the origin of my question. Nowadays, you can find out how much they paid. Now, I am not, as a customer, interested on deciding the margins of the dealer. I am just trying to figure out a fair offer knowing how much the dealer paid in auction. That was all. Particularly for coins that are not selling all the time but come every other year or less frequently.
That's true but it's still useful to use the public auction price as a "what the market will bear" price, especially when it comes to resale. I use the public auction price as what I might get if I sell, minus the Buyer's Premium, as a proxy for the Seller's Premium.
@WCC said:
True, but in @Abuelo's example and mine above, the dealer is probably "fishing"...
Unless you know for a fact what the dealer was willing to pay (not what he did pay), it's not possible to conclude with any reliability what the dealer is doing.
Abuelo's example: I went to PCGS to check the certificate and saw how much it sold last year (2019) in auction, and how much the seller wanted (nearly 3 times the money).
Perhaps the dealer actually bid closer to the "3 times" amount than what he won the coin for. If he's bidding that much, it's not likely he's doing so in order to go fishing.
Actually, I'd also consider that the current seller may NOT be the auction buyer.
I had a coin last year that sold twice in an hour at the same show. Pass a coin around a few times and the price paid may have doubled from the one record we have
@WCC said:
True, but in @Abuelo's example and mine above, the dealer is probably "fishing"...
Unless you know for a fact what the dealer was willing to pay (not what he did pay), it's not possible to conclude with any reliability what the dealer is doing.
Abuelo's example: I went to PCGS to check the certificate and saw how much it sold last year (2019) in auction, and how much the seller wanted (nearly 3 times the money).
Perhaps the dealer actually bid closer to the "3 times" amount than what he won the coin for. If he's bidding that much, it's not likely he's doing so in order to go fishing.
Actually, I'd also consider that the current seller may NOT be the auction buyer.
I had a coin last year that sold twice in an hour at the same show. Pass a coin around a few times and the price paid may have doubled from the one record we have
I don't tend to consider private prices for market value and focus on the public prices. It's easy to not consider that information because it's often simply not available. I also don't think I could get any of those private prices if I went to sell so it's not very relevant.
Sometimes a seller has a high sell price and won't negotiate lower because they paid a private price. Sometimes I will learn and pay that as part of the negotiation discovery process, but I will tend to consider myself buried if it's much higher than the public price. This has happened and I do consider myself buried on occasion. I don't mind because I make the purchase but think it's good to have a realistic assessment of worth.
Even if the last auction price isn't the price the seller paid (and I'm guessing it is more often than not, within a short time frame), it's still useful information in that the seller most likely didn't pay less than that.
and that's my point, it's none of your business in knowing what the dealer paid for the coin.
Your business is to educate yourself on the coin you're interested in and knowing the proper, fair price to pay for it.
Knowing the dealer's cost is the wrong way to approach it.
I agree with a lot of what's been written in this thread, but not this. If I'm about to enter into a price negotiation, it absolutely is my business to know what the dealer paid for a coin if that info is publicly available. That doesn't mean we'll end up agreeing on a sale, but among other advantages it offers me, it gives me a likely floor on the amount he'll accept.
I'll agree it's an advantage to know a dealer's cost, it still is, in my opinion, none of your business to know.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
and that's my point, it's none of your business in knowing what the dealer paid for the coin.
Your business is to educate yourself on the coin you're interested in and knowing the proper, fair price to pay for it.
Knowing the dealer's cost is the wrong way to approach it.
I agree with a lot of what's been written in this thread, but not this. If I'm about to enter into a price negotiation, it absolutely is my business to know what the dealer paid for a coin if that info is publicly available. That doesn't mean we'll end up agreeing on a sale, but among other advantages it offers me, it gives me a likely floor on the amount he'll accept.
I'll agree it's an advantage to know a dealer's cost, it still is, in my opinion, none of your business to know.
What other publicly available information is "none of my business to know"? Just curious.
and that's my point, it's none of your business in knowing what the dealer paid for the coin.
Your business is to educate yourself on the coin you're interested in and knowing the proper, fair price to pay for it.
Knowing the dealer's cost is the wrong way to approach it.
I agree with a lot of what's been written in this thread, but not this. If I'm about to enter into a price negotiation, it absolutely is my business to know what the dealer paid for a coin if that info is publicly available. That doesn't mean we'll end up agreeing on a sale, but among other advantages it offers me, it gives me a likely floor on the amount he'll accept.
I'll agree it's an advantage to know a dealer's cost, it still is, in my opinion, none of your business to know.
I agree dealer costs like travel, marketing, accounting and other costs, etc., aren't someone else's business (aside from owners and investors of the business). I do think public realized prices are important for the market. In my mind, these prices belong to the marketplaces such as Heritage and Stack's and not the seller or the buyer. Since the auctions are conducted in public, realized auction prices might also simply be public information.
and that's my point, it's none of your business in knowing what the dealer paid for the coin.
Your business is to educate yourself on the coin you're interested in and knowing the proper, fair price to pay for it.
Knowing the dealer's cost is the wrong way to approach it.
I agree with a lot of what's been written in this thread, but not this. If I'm about to enter into a price negotiation, it absolutely is my business to know what the dealer paid for a coin if that info is publicly available. That doesn't mean we'll end up agreeing on a sale, but among other advantages it offers me, it gives me a likely floor on the amount he'll accept.
I'll agree it's an advantage to know a dealer's cost, it still is, in my opinion, none of your business to know.
What other publicly available information is "none of my business to know"? Just curious.
The main reason I say it's 'none of your business' is because it shouldn't be necessary in determining your price point of the purchase.
If you want a coin 'A' at your price of $500, does it really make a difference if the dealer paid $300 or $400 for it?
If you are solely relying on acquiring the dealer's cost to estimate your purchase price point, then I think it's time to take up stamp collecting.
Again, as I said earlier, I agree it's an advantage and nice to know what the dealer paid for something, but how in H-E-double hockey sticks that should determine what you pay for it, is beyond me.
Maybe earlier, in error I came off sounding like it's a 'moral isuue' re not knowing the dealer's cost, but in retrospect, what I wanted to stress, is that it plays zero importance in determining how you place a value on a coin for purchase.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
and that's my point, it's none of your business in knowing what the dealer paid for the coin.
Your business is to educate yourself on the coin you're interested in and knowing the proper, fair price to pay for it.
Knowing the dealer's cost is the wrong way to approach it.
I agree with a lot of what's been written in this thread, but not this. If I'm about to enter into a price negotiation, it absolutely is my business to know what the dealer paid for a coin if that info is publicly available. That doesn't mean we'll end up agreeing on a sale, but among other advantages it offers me, it gives me a likely floor on the amount he'll accept.
I'll agree it's an advantage to know a dealer's cost, it still is, in my opinion, none of your business to know.
What other publicly available information is "none of my business to know"? Just curious.
The main reason I say it's 'none of your business' is because it shouldn't be necessary in determining your price point of the purchase.
If you want a coin 'A' at your price of $500, does it really make a difference if the dealer paid $300 or $400 for it?
If you are solely relying on acquiring the dealer's cost to estimate your purchase price point, then I think it's time to take up stamp collecting.
Again, as I said earlier, I agree it's an advantage and nice to know what the dealer paid for something, but how in H-E-double hockey sticks that should determine what you pay for it, is beyond me.
Maybe earlier, in error I came off sounding like it's a 'moral isuue' re not knowing the dealer's cost, but in retrospect, what I wanted to stress, is that it plays zero importance in determining how you place a value on a coin for purchase.
Dealer cost shouldn't matter, but public realized prices matter. Realized prices are now the new price guides and price guides have been around forever.
and that's my point, it's none of your business in knowing what the dealer paid for the coin.
Your business is to educate yourself on the coin you're interested in and knowing the proper, fair price to pay for it.
Knowing the dealer's cost is the wrong way to approach it.
I agree with a lot of what's been written in this thread, but not this. If I'm about to enter into a price negotiation, it absolutely is my business to know what the dealer paid for a coin if that info is publicly available. That doesn't mean we'll end up agreeing on a sale, but among other advantages it offers me, it gives me a likely floor on the amount he'll accept.
I'll agree it's an advantage to know a dealer's cost, it still is, in my opinion, none of your business to know.
What other publicly available information is "none of my business to know"? Just curious.
The main reason I say it's 'none of your business' is because it shouldn't be necessary in determining your price point of the purchase.
If you want a coin 'A' at your price of $500, does it really make a difference if the dealer paid $300 or $400 for it?
If you are solely relying on acquiring the dealer's cost to estimate your purchase price point, then I think it's time to take up stamp collecting.
Again, as I said earlier, I agree it's an advantage and nice to know what the dealer paid for something, but how in H-E-double hockey sticks that should determine what you pay for it, is beyond me.
Maybe earlier, in error I came off sounding like it's a 'moral isuue' re not knowing the dealer's cost, but in retrospect, what I wanted to stress, is that it plays zero importance in determining how you place a value on a coin for purchase.
Dealer cost shouldn't matter, but public realized prices matter. Realized prices are now the new price guides and price guides have been around forever.
100% agree with this.
My whole earlier argument has been based solely on one isolated transaction, to which knowing the cost of this particular coin is not a critical matter.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
and that's my point, it's none of your business in knowing what the dealer paid for the coin.
Your business is to educate yourself on the coin you're interested in and knowing the proper, fair price to pay for it.
Knowing the dealer's cost is the wrong way to approach it.
I agree with a lot of what's been written in this thread, but not this. If I'm about to enter into a price negotiation, it absolutely is my business to know what the dealer paid for a coin if that info is publicly available. That doesn't mean we'll end up agreeing on a sale, but among other advantages it offers me, it gives me a likely floor on the amount he'll accept.
I'll agree it's an advantage to know a dealer's cost, it still is, in my opinion, none of your business to know.
What other publicly available information is "none of my business to know"? Just curious.
The main reason I say it's 'none of your business' is because it shouldn't be necessary in determining your price point of the purchase.
If you want a coin 'A' at your price of $500, does it really make a difference if the dealer paid $300 or $400 for it?
If you are solely relying on acquiring the dealer's cost to estimate your purchase price point, then I think it's time to take up stamp collecting.
Again, as I said earlier, I agree it's an advantage and nice to know what the dealer paid for something, but how in H-E-double hockey sticks that should determine what you pay for it, is beyond me.
Maybe earlier, in error I came off sounding like it's a 'moral isuue' re not knowing the dealer's cost, but in retrospect, what I wanted to stress, is that it plays zero importance in determining how you place a value on a coin for purchase.
You may mean to say it's immaterial (which I'd still disagree with), but "none of my business" means there's some sort of impropriety in my accessing the information, which is ludicrous. There's all sorts of value in learning what sort of markup a dealer typically places on his/her coins and whether they'll generally negotiate on price. Buyers who don't know either are just costing themselves money, needlessly.
I think this leads to the issue of what is retail. I don’t care about the profit margin of the dealer, I want to pay what I believe is a fair price. Whether they make 100% or lose 50% isn’t my concern.
I typically research by looking at sold lots. For me, that is retail. I can buy a 1921 peace dollar in 64 for a pretty established price. I’m not interesting in paying that amount plus 30% from a dealer who bought the coin from the same venue that I can.
I sympathize with dealers. It has to be a tough business with the information available online, and the access to coins.
@DoubleEagle59 said:
I'm 60 years old, retired, but when I was
Bottom line.....it's really no one's business what a dealer pays for something.
But that is the origin of my question. Nowadays, you can find out how much they paid. Now, I am not, as a customer, interested on deciding the margins of the dealer. I am just trying to figure out a fair offer knowing how much the dealer paid in auction. That was all. Particularly for coins that are not selling all the time but come every other year or less frequently.
and that's my point, it's none of your business in knowing what the dealer paid for the coin.
Your business is to educate yourself on the coin you're interested in and knowing the proper, fair price to pay for it.
Knowing the dealer's cost is the wrong way to approach it.
At this point, the differences we're talking about might just be semantics.
@Abuelo 's remark that he can see what the dealer paid is really only referring to realized auction prices as he mentions Heritage and Stack's. This would be part of the research and education he does to offer a fair price for it as mentioned by @DoubleEagle59 .
@WCC said:
True, but in @Abuelo's example and mine above, the dealer is probably "fishing"...
Unless you know for a fact what the dealer was willing to pay (not what he did pay), it's not possible to conclude with any reliability what the dealer is doing.
Abuelo's example: I went to PCGS to check the certificate and saw how much it sold last year (2019) in auction, and how much the seller wanted (nearly 3 times the money).
Perhaps the dealer actually bid closer to the "3 times" amount than what he won the coin for. If he's bidding that much, it's not likely he's doing so in order to go fishing.
No, I can't know for sure, but I can see the result.
It's my opinion that this dealer has recently overestimated how much they can sell any number of world coins for. Aside from the two I mentioned, numerous others (cheaper though) were offered last May on Heritage after sitting on the website for at least the same length. All sold for a low fraction of the ask price though in this instance, I don't know their cost. One example I bought for $53 (including the $19 buyer's fee) which was listed at $169. This coin isn't and wasn't worth anywhere near $169, except to some random buyer who doesn't know the series.
This a well known dealer. There is also a second well known dealer whose world coin inventory I don't bother to check now anymore because it is so stale. I could elaborate further, but probably would give away who it is and don't want to do that.
It's my further opinion that the business model they both appear to use was a lot more successful for this coinage in the past but doesn't seem to be as much anymore.
After having purchasing a coin for 10x retail price guide and being fully satisfied upon receipt I agree to pay what market will bear. Since I'm a big boy now I take full responsibility for any ignorance on my part and place no blame on the dealer I purchased that coin from. With that said most informed buyers could infer that in most cases wholesale and retail price guides are not only useless to a buyer but cannot be tested as a source even for dealers. With regards to margins on your sale I think I get it now.
@jmlanzaf said:
This is true, but nonetheless the fact for most coin businesses. Margins are horrible. Other retail business people laugh at us.
And your customers call you crooks. It's a wonder more people don't go into the business.
I once had an argument with a (non)customer who offered me 40% back of a coin that was listed at Greysheet bid. I pointed out that bid was $200 and his $120 offer was sub-wholesale. His response was, "why would I ever pay retail?" My response, before I blocked him, was "And I assume you are willing to sell your coins for 50% of retail when it is time to sell."
It is AMAZING to me at times how much economic ignorance exists among collectors of money!
One of my other favorites is the "BST has no fees" mantra. It ain't about the fees, it's about the net receipts.
And you hear it both ways: "I won't buy from X because of the 20% BP". So, are you going to pay the same number on BST or do you want a 20% discount? If you want the 20% discount on BST, what's the incentive for me to sell it there when I can get the same net amount on X without doing any work?
Without doing any work you've got no satisfaction.
I asked a very similar question about a year ago and got the same "it's none of your business" responses. For what it's worth, this is my take on it now. Let's say the dealer is asking $3000. A very recent auction record is $1200 for the exact same coin (for whatever reason you missed the auction). You like the coin a lot, and they don't come up often. If you had to, you would pony up $3000 for it, because you "need" that coin, but you really don't want to pay $3000 because you know you'll be buried at that price. You would rather pay closer to $1200 because the available data suggests that is about what you could sell it for if you had to. So what do you offer?
Here's what I actually did (real numbers). I offered 30% back of the asking price. Normally I wouldn't make such a low offer. But because I had that recent sale data, and I assume the dealer did too, I felt it was not an insulting number. We negotiated back and forth respectfully a couple times. We ended up at 20% back, and when he threw out the "no credit cards, check only" line I knew we were done. I got the coin I wanted at $600 below asking price in part because I had the auction data. He doubled his money (presumably). I paid-up in a way, but that's the price I pay for getting a second chance at the coin after missing the opportunity at auction.
It's very simple. You sell a coin at a price you can get for it. Four years ago, a dealer offered me a coin for $6K. It was all there for the grade and appeared to be about market for the coin at that time. I passed because a year and a half earlier, market for said coin was $14K. The coin was sold to someone else at I don't know what price.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
What about the 1804 dollar that was flipped for a million dollar profit with the buyer knowing the auction price?
@nags said:
I think this leads to the issue of what is retail. I don’t care about the profit margin of the dealer, I want to pay what I believe is a fair price. Whether they make 100% or lose 50% isn’t my concern.
I typically research by looking at sold lots. For me, that is retail. I can buy a 1921 peace dollar in 64 for a pretty established price. I’m not interesting in paying that amount plus 30% from a dealer who bought the coin from the same venue that I can.
I sympathize with dealers. It has to be a tough business with the information available online, and the access to coins.
From what you are saying there should be no coin dealers. Everyone should just pay up the 20% and consign or buy from Stacks + Heritage and know what the coin will sell for.
For what I collect...all they seem to have is the crap no one else wants and the results pull down the price guides. In middle of the road stuff....Say less than 10K coins most of the nicer ones sell without an internet paper trail...except on ebay. I have found that many of the nicer coins that sell on ebay do not show up in coin facts because I can only assume the higher price realized is considered an outlier.
and that's my point, it's none of your business in knowing what the dealer paid for the coin.
Your business is to educate yourself on the coin you're interested in and knowing the proper, fair price to pay for it.
Knowing the dealer's cost is the wrong way to approach it.
I agree with a lot of what's been written in this thread, but not this. If I'm about to enter into a price negotiation, it absolutely is my business to know what the dealer paid for a coin if that info is publicly available. That doesn't mean we'll end up agreeing on a sale, but among other advantages it offers me, it gives me a likely floor on the amount he'll accept.
I'll agree it's an advantage to know a dealer's cost, it still is, in my opinion, none of your business to know.
What other publicly available information is "none of my business to know"? Just curious.
The main reason I say it's 'none of your business' is because it shouldn't be necessary in determining your price point of the purchase.
If you want a coin 'A' at your price of $500, does it really make a difference if the dealer paid $300 or $400 for it?
If you are solely relying on acquiring the dealer's cost to estimate your purchase price point, then I think it's time to take up stamp collecting.
Again, as I said earlier, I agree it's an advantage and nice to know what the dealer paid for something, but how in H-E-double hockey sticks that should determine what you pay for it, is beyond me.
Maybe earlier, in error I came off sounding like it's a 'moral isuue' re not knowing the dealer's cost, but in retrospect, what I wanted to stress, is that it plays zero importance in determining how you place a value on a coin for purchase.
Dealer cost shouldn't matter, but public realized prices matter. Realized prices are now the new price guides and price guides have been around forever.
@amwldcoin said:
From what you are saying there should be no coin dealers. Everyone should just pay up the 20% and consign or buy from Stacks + Heritage and know what the coin will sell for.
Not at all. If you look at what I wrote in totality, I mention that I often buy from dealers. The difference is that, if I sell, I don't expect to be able to get the price they are selling at because I'm not a dealer. I only expect to be able to get the auction price minus the BP myself. To get what dealers are charging, I would expect that I would need to become a dealer myself and do what they do, which is a reasonable amount of marketing and market making to create demand for their product above an open auction price. Of course, there are benefits to this since I could probably get a tax exemption on eBay
For what I collect...all they seem to have is the crap no one else wants and the results pull down the price guides. In middle of the road stuff....Say less than 10K coins most of the nicer ones sell without an internet paper trail...except on ebay. I have found that many of the nicer coins that sell on ebay do not show up in coin facts because I can only assume the higher price realized is considered an outlier.
Why don't you just ask PCGS? Brett, Heather and others are right here. I can't believe that they are purposely not listing eBay coins in a certain price range. I run across many eBay prices under $10K in PCGS Cert Verification so I know they are tracking them, but I don't look for aggregate prices on CoinFacts because I like to link prices to individual coins for what I'm interested in.
It would be an interesting question to ask how CoinFacts selects which eBay sales to use. It is clearly impractical to include all of them, eBay sells abut 1000 PCGS graded coins per day.
@amwldcoin said:
For what I collect...all they seem to have is the crap no one else wants and the results pull down the price guides. In middle of the road stuff....Say less than 10K coins most of the nicer ones sell without an internet paper trail...
That's how it often works. Dealers buy collections and the coins are offered first to known buyers. There's no public record of what they buy or what they paid and the coins go away until the new buyer sells. What doesn't get bought goes on the dealer's website and to shows and if it doesn't sell there, eventually ends up going to auction. If the dealers that specialize in what you collect don't know who you are, there are going to be coins you won't ever see or have an opportunity to buy.
@savitale said:
It would be an interesting question to ask how CoinFacts selects which eBay sales to use. It is clearly impractical to include all of them, eBay sells abut 1000 PCGS graded coins per day.
That’s nothing for a computer program, especially if they are the auctions that are tagged with a PCGS number. It’s it’s only slab photos then they would need an AI program to identify slabs and numbers, a bit more work but when implemented should also easily handle 1000s per day.
@jmlanzaf said:
It is AMAZING to me at times how much economic ignorance exists among collectors of money!
The one thing that never ceases to amaze me is the apparent lack of understanding that the same coin can be valued differently depending on when/where/how it's offered for sale. And all those values are "correct".
You are all correct just from different sides of the coin so to speak. In it’s raw form buyers want to bugger the dealer and visa versa...it is what it is no nice guys in this game. Temporary pragmatic alliances at best😁
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
I think it’s senseless worry about what the dealer paid or nitpick his profit margin and could care less. What it shows that person weak on research, doesn’t understand what it takes make it in coin biz, probably deer in headlights if ever setup at show.
My focus is what can I sell it for? What is CPG, TPG? Does it have good sales / profit potential? Am I buying it right? Are my chances good (pop data) have only one in the bourse room? Of course I do other research like auction history, CF. Where does it fall in grade range? Is it PQ (high markup). Does this purchase match business goals and marketing / promotional Strategy.
Strategic Applied Retail Pricing:
Case in point dealer buys coin for 500 - it’s price guide MV 1000. If PQ he might try sell for 1250, Average quality he might ask 750. Solid Quality 1000 (keystone markup).
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Why does that matter, what only matters is what the coin is worth?
I sometimes buy coins at auction from a horrible photo. The reason the auction went off so low is because of poor photography. The coin is worth way more than the auction record shows.
I have never have had anyone ask what I paid for material but if they did would just inform them it’s confidential with the seller.
Thanks @doubleeagle59
True, but in @Abuelo's example and mine above, the dealer is probably "fishing", I can tell you that I have bought a lot more coins of the type I collect than any dealer has sold and I don't know the "real" value either because there isn't one, including for the reasons you gave.
Sometimes I don't even know what I am willing to pay until I am bidding because I hardly ever buy from dealers at "retail" since they almost never offer it. In the example I used, I'd guess "market" on this four figure coin is probably about one-third the dealer ask price on their website. The coin previously sold for about 45% of their ask but this included multiple bidding increments where he and I were the only bidders. I make this assumption, as I have been able to win practically every single coin I wanted to buy the last few years within the price range I was willing and expected to pay.
Unless you know for a fact what the dealer was willing to pay (not what he did pay), it's not possible to conclude with any reliability what the dealer is doing.
Abuelo's example:
I went to PCGS to check the certificate and saw how much it sold last year (2019) in auction, and how much the seller wanted (nearly 3 times the money).
Perhaps the dealer actually bid closer to the "3 times" amount than what he won the coin for. If he's bidding that much, it's not likely he's doing so in order to go fishing.
I agree with a lot of what's been written in this thread, but not this. If I'm about to enter into a price negotiation, it absolutely is my business to know what the dealer paid for a coin if that info is publicly available. That doesn't mean we'll end up agreeing on a sale, but among other advantages it offers me, it gives me a likely floor on the amount he'll accept.
Sometimes I win auctions lower than my bid (almost always).
I price from my bid as that is what I was willing to buy the coin for. I will not sell it for less than I was willing to pay.
Sadly, the assumption by many is that some dealers make their money on the front end by buying as cheaply as possible from widows and those needing to unload quickly.
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Agreed. There's nothing wrong with using whatever information is available in order to arrive at a value for the coin.
I'd like to point out just because you know what the coin sold for in auction doesn't mean the dealer bought it in the auction. Last year I bought a coin at a show and I was the 3rd dealer to own it from a recent auction. Guess what? I sold it to another dealer making him the 4th in the progression!
That's true but it's still useful to use the public auction price as a "what the market will bear" price, especially when it comes to resale. I use the public auction price as what I might get if I sell, minus the Buyer's Premium, as a proxy for the Seller's Premium.
Actually, I'd also consider that the current seller may NOT be the auction buyer.
I had a coin last year that sold twice in an hour at the same show. Pass a coin around a few times and the price paid may have doubled from the one record we have
I don't tend to consider private prices for market value and focus on the public prices. It's easy to not consider that information because it's often simply not available. I also don't think I could get any of those private prices if I went to sell so it's not very relevant.
Sometimes a seller has a high sell price and won't negotiate lower because they paid a private price. Sometimes I will learn and pay that as part of the negotiation discovery process, but I will tend to consider myself buried if it's much higher than the public price. This has happened and I do consider myself buried on occasion. I don't mind because I make the purchase but think it's good to have a realistic assessment of worth.
Even if the last auction price isn't the price the seller paid (and I'm guessing it is more often than not, within a short time frame), it's still useful information in that the seller most likely didn't pay less than that.
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I'll agree it's an advantage to know a dealer's cost, it still is, in my opinion, none of your business to know.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
What other publicly available information is "none of my business to know"? Just curious.
I agree dealer costs like travel, marketing, accounting and other costs, etc., aren't someone else's business (aside from owners and investors of the business). I do think public realized prices are important for the market. In my mind, these prices belong to the marketplaces such as Heritage and Stack's and not the seller or the buyer. Since the auctions are conducted in public, realized auction prices might also simply be public information.
The main reason I say it's 'none of your business' is because it shouldn't be necessary in determining your price point of the purchase.
If you want a coin 'A' at your price of $500, does it really make a difference if the dealer paid $300 or $400 for it?
If you are solely relying on acquiring the dealer's cost to estimate your purchase price point, then I think it's time to take up stamp collecting.
Again, as I said earlier, I agree it's an advantage and nice to know what the dealer paid for something, but how in H-E-double hockey sticks that should determine what you pay for it, is beyond me.
Maybe earlier, in error I came off sounding like it's a 'moral isuue' re not knowing the dealer's cost, but in retrospect, what I wanted to stress, is that it plays zero importance in determining how you place a value on a coin for purchase.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Dealer cost shouldn't matter, but public realized prices matter. Realized prices are now the new price guides and price guides have been around forever.
100% agree with this.
My whole earlier argument has been based solely on one isolated transaction, to which knowing the cost of this particular coin is not a critical matter.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
You may mean to say it's immaterial (which I'd still disagree with), but "none of my business" means there's some sort of impropriety in my accessing the information, which is ludicrous. There's all sorts of value in learning what sort of markup a dealer typically places on his/her coins and whether they'll generally negotiate on price. Buyers who don't know either are just costing themselves money, needlessly.
I think this leads to the issue of what is retail. I don’t care about the profit margin of the dealer, I want to pay what I believe is a fair price. Whether they make 100% or lose 50% isn’t my concern.
I typically research by looking at sold lots. For me, that is retail. I can buy a 1921 peace dollar in 64 for a pretty established price. I’m not interesting in paying that amount plus 30% from a dealer who bought the coin from the same venue that I can.
I sympathize with dealers. It has to be a tough business with the information available online, and the access to coins.
Another small point I want to make is some individuals may think there is a set formula for dealers pricing their inventory.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Any businessperson wants to maximize their profit, so it's an answer - it's based on an individual basis.
Another reason why knowing the particular cost of a coin purchase is a moot point.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
At this point, the differences we're talking about might just be semantics.
@Abuelo 's remark that he can see what the dealer paid is really only referring to realized auction prices as he mentions Heritage and Stack's. This would be part of the research and education he does to offer a fair price for it as mentioned by @DoubleEagle59 .
No, I can't know for sure, but I can see the result.
It's my opinion that this dealer has recently overestimated how much they can sell any number of world coins for. Aside from the two I mentioned, numerous others (cheaper though) were offered last May on Heritage after sitting on the website for at least the same length. All sold for a low fraction of the ask price though in this instance, I don't know their cost. One example I bought for $53 (including the $19 buyer's fee) which was listed at $169. This coin isn't and wasn't worth anywhere near $169, except to some random buyer who doesn't know the series.
This a well known dealer. There is also a second well known dealer whose world coin inventory I don't bother to check now anymore because it is so stale. I could elaborate further, but probably would give away who it is and don't want to do that.
It's my further opinion that the business model they both appear to use was a lot more successful for this coinage in the past but doesn't seem to be as much anymore.
After having purchasing a coin for 10x retail price guide and being fully satisfied upon receipt I agree to pay what market will bear. Since I'm a big boy now I take full responsibility for any ignorance on my part and place no blame on the dealer I purchased that coin from. With that said most informed buyers could infer that in most cases wholesale and retail price guides are not only useless to a buyer but cannot be tested as a source even for dealers. With regards to margins on your sale I think I get it now.
Without doing any work you've got no satisfaction.
I asked a very similar question about a year ago and got the same "it's none of your business" responses. For what it's worth, this is my take on it now. Let's say the dealer is asking $3000. A very recent auction record is $1200 for the exact same coin (for whatever reason you missed the auction). You like the coin a lot, and they don't come up often. If you had to, you would pony up $3000 for it, because you "need" that coin, but you really don't want to pay $3000 because you know you'll be buried at that price. You would rather pay closer to $1200 because the available data suggests that is about what you could sell it for if you had to. So what do you offer?
Here's what I actually did (real numbers). I offered 30% back of the asking price. Normally I wouldn't make such a low offer. But because I had that recent sale data, and I assume the dealer did too, I felt it was not an insulting number. We negotiated back and forth respectfully a couple times. We ended up at 20% back, and when he threw out the "no credit cards, check only" line I knew we were done. I got the coin I wanted at $600 below asking price in part because I had the auction data. He doubled his money (presumably). I paid-up in a way, but that's the price I pay for getting a second chance at the coin after missing the opportunity at auction.
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It's very simple. You sell a coin at a price you can get for it. Four years ago, a dealer offered me a coin for $6K. It was all there for the grade and appeared to be about market for the coin at that time. I passed because a year and a half earlier, market for said coin was $14K. The coin was sold to someone else at I don't know what price.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
What about the 1804 dollar that was flipped for a million dollar profit with the buyer knowing the auction price?
From what you are saying there should be no coin dealers. Everyone should just pay up the 20% and consign or buy from Stacks + Heritage and know what the coin will sell for.
For what I collect...all they seem to have is the crap no one else wants and the results pull down the price guides. In middle of the road stuff....Say less than 10K coins most of the nicer ones sell without an internet paper trail...except on ebay. I have found that many of the nicer coins that sell on ebay do not show up in coin facts because I can only assume the higher price realized is considered an outlier.
Not at all. If you look at what I wrote in totality, I mention that I often buy from dealers. The difference is that, if I sell, I don't expect to be able to get the price they are selling at because I'm not a dealer. I only expect to be able to get the auction price minus the BP myself. To get what dealers are charging, I would expect that I would need to become a dealer myself and do what they do, which is a reasonable amount of marketing and market making to create demand for their product above an open auction price. Of course, there are benefits to this since I could probably get a tax exemption on eBay
Why don't you just ask PCGS? Brett, Heather and others are right here. I can't believe that they are purposely not listing eBay coins in a certain price range. I run across many eBay prices under $10K in PCGS Cert Verification so I know they are tracking them, but I don't look for aggregate prices on CoinFacts because I like to link prices to individual coins for what I'm interested in.
It would be an interesting question to ask how CoinFacts selects which eBay sales to use. It is clearly impractical to include all of them, eBay sells abut 1000 PCGS graded coins per day.
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The new CEO was practically in diapers, when this thread began.
That's how it often works. Dealers buy collections and the coins are offered first to known buyers. There's no public record of what they buy or what they paid and the coins go away until the new buyer sells. What doesn't get bought goes on the dealer's website and to shows and if it doesn't sell there, eventually ends up going to auction. If the dealers that specialize in what you collect don't know who you are, there are going to be coins you won't ever see or have an opportunity to buy.
That’s nothing for a computer program, especially if they are the auctions that are tagged with a PCGS number. It’s it’s only slab photos then they would need an AI program to identify slabs and numbers, a bit more work but when implemented should also easily handle 1000s per day.
You are all correct just from different sides of the coin so to speak. In it’s raw form buyers want to bugger the dealer and visa versa...it is what it is no nice guys in this game. Temporary pragmatic alliances at best😁
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I think it’s senseless worry about what the dealer paid or nitpick his profit margin and could care less. What it shows that person weak on research, doesn’t understand what it takes make it in coin biz, probably deer in headlights if ever setup at show.
My focus is what can I sell it for? What is CPG, TPG? Does it have good sales / profit potential? Am I buying it right? Are my chances good (pop data) have only one in the bourse room? Of course I do other research like auction history, CF. Where does it fall in grade range? Is it PQ (high markup). Does this purchase match business goals and marketing / promotional Strategy.
Strategic Applied Retail Pricing:
Case in point dealer buys coin for 500 - it’s price guide MV 1000. If PQ he might try sell for 1250, Average quality he might ask 750. Solid Quality 1000 (keystone markup).