Frank Thomas or Mark McGwire in the HOF (poll)
jmbkb4
Posts: 2,963
Hi,
In YOUR opinion, which player has the BEST shot at getting into the HOF?
My vote: Frank Thomas
In YOUR opinion, which player has the BEST shot at getting into the HOF?
My vote: Frank Thomas
0
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<< <i>I think both should be in. If I had to chose one, I would have to choose Thomas. >>
just as an example....Is Rose in Hall, is Shoeless in Hall? No because what they did is unforgivable, just like McGwire and Bondz...
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Thomas will eventually get into the hall as well, but I don't see him being a first ballot guy.
<< <i>That HR chase is what saved baseball, not Ripken's 'streak'. >>
Can't say that I agree on that one but I guess it's a matter of opinion.
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
Dunno if Big Mac goes in, in my lifetime and that doesnt really bother me; same thing for Bonds. I hope he ends up in jail.
McGwire will never get in.
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<< <i>Thomas goes in before McGwire.
Dunno if Big Mac goes in, in my lifetime and that doesnt really bother me; same thing for Bonds. I hope he ends up in jail. >>
Thomas should get voted in during his first chance as his name has never come up and is just naturally a big guy.
McGwire IN
Thomas IN
Bonds IN
Rose IN IN IN!!
Besides, who's to say Thomas wasn't also on steroids? Why isn't anyone comparing HIS rookie baseball cards to his latest ones, like they do Bonds and McGwire?
I agree with that. I don't think of Ripken's streak as a big deal. Not that it wasn't VERY impressive but I don't think the average fan really cared as much about the streak as they did about the home run chase. That home run chase in '98 was PRIME TIME tv, magazine covers, etc.... It was one of the biggest news stories of the year; not just sports. Ripken's streak was a sports story primarily in my opinion.
<< <i><< That HR chase is what saved baseball, not Ripken's 'streak'. >>
I agree with that. I don't think of Ripken's streak as a big deal. Not that it wasn't VERY impressive but I don't think the average fan really cared as much about the streak as they did about the home run chase. That home run chase in '98 was PRIME TIME tv, magazine covers, etc.... It was one of the biggest news stories of the year; not just sports. Ripken's streak was a sports story primarily in my opinion. >>
Yeah, people were tuning to every game to see if those guys would hit homeruns. Ripken, all you had to do, which is exactly what I did, was watch one game.
Now, it was just a total waste for anyone that devoted any kind of time or money following those two that year. It's an empty feeling for me, that's for sure...
McGwire IN
Thomas IN
Bonds IN
Rose IN IN IN!!
Besides, who's to say Thomas wasn't also on steroids? Why isn't anyone comparing HIS rookie baseball cards to his latest ones, like they do Bonds and McGwire?
>>>>
Who knows who took HGH?? Obviously many of them did but nobody really cares about anyone except Bonds. The press hate Bonds as do many on this board. But, he will get in or it makes a mockery out of the already much maligned HOF.
But, to answer the original question, both players should get in eventually. They both deserve it.
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Steve
Thomas was always a big boy. He looks the same on his rookie as he does on his current cards...
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
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Kind of sums it up, Ron. "Presumed usage" and "had a significant impact"?? Add "allegedly" in front of "had" and your point is potentially valid. But nobody will ever know, nor does anyone have any clue what impact HGH had on any players performance. Where are the studies to back this up? They don't exist.
Look, I don't like any of these substances and they have no place in baseball. But, the owners looked the other way, baseball looked the other way, you and I looked the other way and now everone is on the "ban every player who got bigger during their career" bandwagon. And, 90% of the wrath is coming from Bonds haters. There is no fair way to ban players who used these substances in the past before they were even banned by MLB. There still is not a reliable test for HGH and it ain't gonna happen anytime soon unless the Player's Union agrees to blood tests.
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<< <i><< That HR chase is what saved baseball, not Ripken's 'streak'. >>
I agree with that. I don't think of Ripken's streak as a big deal. Not that it wasn't VERY impressive but I don't think the average fan really cared as much about the streak as they did about the home run chase. That home run chase in '98 was PRIME TIME tv, magazine covers, etc.... It was one of the biggest news stories of the year; not just sports. Ripken's streak was a sports story primarily in my opinion. >>
You guys are out of your mind. If you recall, there was a strike that ended the 1994 season. Ripken's Streak single-handedly saved Baseball from THAT slump. The McGwire/Sosa Home Run chase was a completely different feat. Sure it was a blast to watch, but what exactly did it "save"? Plus, we all know now what was behind McGwire & Sosa's chase, so that's tainted now. Ripken didn't beat the streak by taking HGH. He had a great work ethic, and played even when he probably shouldn't have. Sure he had his slump times, but who doesn't? An injured Ripken is still better than anyone else who would have taken his place.
McGwire?
I think so! Right after Pete Rose!
rd
Thomas: YES!
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julen
RIP GURU
too bad about Bonds, because if it weren't for steroids, i still think he would have a clean shot. Hits for average, good in the field and even if 200 of his home runs were tainted and should have gone for routine flyball outs, he would still have over 500. now he's gonna break Aaron's record and forever taint the Halls with at least that......
and every player should have streaks like Ripken. i'm not impressed. getting paid 15mil/year? get yr ass out there! and there were hundreds of half-inning games for Ripken JUST to keep that streak alive, not to mention the LUCK of simply never getting hurt. it does a player good to sit out a game or two. all that streak did was balloon his 82TT card up to $300......stupid card never had any business IN that set in the first place (sorry, small vent)......
[from PR Newswire]
<< <i>
McGwire's 70th Home Run Ball Juiced, CT Scan Finds
Computed tomography (CT) image of the 'pill' - or core - of Mark McGwire's 70th Home Run Baseball from 1998. The white arrow denotes the synthetic rubber ring not outlined in Major League Baseball specifications. The CT image is produced by Universal Medical Systems, Inc. of Ohio. (PRNewsFoto/Universal Medical Systems, Inc. of Ohio)
CLEVELAND, OH UNITED STATES 01/03/2007
Computer tomography (CT) cross-sectional images of various 1998 Major League Baseballs contain a synthetic rubber ring (distinguished by two red marks) not outlined in Major League Baseball specifications. The images also reveal that the baseball components - despite specifications - are non-spherical, off-center and not uniform. The CT image is produced by Universal Medical Systems, Inc. of Ohio. (PRNewsFoto/Universal Medical Systems, Inc. of Ohio)
CLEVELAND, OH UNITED STATES 01/03/2007
Hall of Fame Balloting Tainted
CLEVELAND, Jan. 3 /PRNewswire/ -- Mark McGwire's 70th home run ball
from his record-breaking 1998 season contains a synthetic rubber ring or
spring ("the ring") -- a material not outlined in official Major League
Baseball ("the League") specifications. The ring and enlarged rubberized
core of the baseball are clearly visualized in a computed tomography (CT)
scan of the baseball conducted by Universal Medical Systems, Inc. of Ohio
(UMS), a worldwide innovator of diagnostic imaging technology for various
industries.
(Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20070103/CLW088-a)
UMS, with assistance from Dr. Avrami S. Grader and Dr. Philip M.
Halleck from The Center for Quantitative Imaging at Penn State University,
utilized a CT scanner to study additional League baseballs from 1998 and
found the baseballs have significantly enlarged cores in a variety of
shapes and sizes.
(Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20070103/CLW088-b)
The League Specifications vs. McGwire's 70th Home Run Ball
According to the League's specifications, "the pill of the baseball
shall consist of a compressed cork sphere surrounded by one layer of black
rubber and one layer of red rubber." The League does not specify a
synthetic rubber ring or any additional material.
"Examining the CT images of Mark McGwire's 70th home run ball one can
clearly see the synthetic ring around the core -- or 'pill' -- of the
baseball," states David Zavagno, president of Universal Medical Systems.
"While Mark McGuire may or may not have used illegal steroids, the evidence
shows his ball -- under the governing body of the League -- was juiced."
League Acts to Deflect Scrutiny of Juiced Ball
In 2000, in response to concerns about an altered ball contributing to
increased home runs, the League commissioned and paid for a study from the
UMass-Lowell Baseball Research Center. The report found no change in the
ball. However, photos within the report show the synthetic rubber ring and
identify numerous other problems.
The league publicly announced the baseball was not a cause of increased
home runs. However, the historical words "cushioned cork center" were later
removed from baseballs. In addition, computerized strike checkers were
installed in the League's parks to expand the strike zone, and the League
worked towards establishing drug testing standards. In fact, Commissioner
Bud Selig named former Senator George Mitchell to lead an investigation
into the use of illegal steroids by baseball players. Another interesting
action, the Colorado Rockies utilized a humidor for their balls.
"The League is as guilty as the individual players," says Zavagno. "Its
desire to protect the image of the game, while recording huge revenues and
setting new performance records, allowed scandalous problems to escalate.
Only after Congress stepped in on the steroid problem did the League
begrudgingly act. Now it may take similar scrutiny for the League to admit
the modern-day baseball does not conform to its own specifications. Because
of the scandals -- baseball material alterations, lax rule enforcement and
rampant use of steroids -- the Hall of Fame voting process could be tainted
for decades. Hall of Fame voters need to understand many historical
statistical comparisons are no longer relevant."
About Computed Tomography (CT) Technology
Computed Tomography or CT scanning is a method whereby X-rays are
passed through a sample material, which produces cross-sectional images or
slices. These images offer the capability of rapid, nondestructive
visualization and analysis of an object. UMS currently utilizes CT scanning
within the petroleum industry to identify and evaluate internal structural
characteristics and discontinuities of core materials and fluid
distribution within cores.
About the Scan of McGwires' 70th Home Run Ball
UMS utilized the same methodology of examining rock core samples for
presence of oil when examining McGwire's 70th home run ball, which was
obtained on-loan from "The McFarlane Collection." A baseball can be thought
of as a small rock. The same state-of-the-art core analysis imaging
techniques were applied to accurately determine the properties and material
changes in the baseball.
"The synthetic rubber ring of the modern-day baseball, in this case
that of Mark McGwire's prized 70th home run ball, acts as both a spring and
a 'stop,'" says Zavagno. "Much like a sling shot pulled back 10 or 20
degrees farther than normal, the subsequent restitution or rebound allows
an object to fly faster and farther. The changes to the center directly
affect the restitution and energy distribution within the ball."
About Universal Medical Systems, Inc.
Based in Solon, Ohio, Universal Medical Systems, Inc. is a global user,
designer and supplier of advanced innovative imaging systems and services
with more than 20 years of computed tomography experience. For more
information visit: http://www.universal-systems.com
About David R. Zavagno
David R. Zavagno, president of Universal Medical Systems, Inc., has
non- destructively tested and documented the content of Major League
baseballs covering almost 100 years. His insights and findings appeared in
numerous articles, broadcasts and interviews. He first utilized his
diagnostic imaging technology to examine baseballs in 1994. For more
information contact Zavagno at 440-349-3210 or
zavagno@universal-systems.com.
Contact: David R. Zavagno
440-349-3210
zavagno@universal-systems.com
SOURCE Universal Medical Systems, Inc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related links:
http://www.universal-systems.com/
Photo Notes:
NewsCom: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20070103/CLW088-a
http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20070103/CLW088-b
AP Archive: http://photoarchive.ap.org AP PhotoExpress
Network: PRN5 PRN Photo Desk, photodesk@prnewswire.com >>
McGwire's 70th HR ball does not conform to official specifications
Nick
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<< <i>500 home runs alone shouldn't get you in....Big Mac was a terrible player in every aspect. put his milestone bats in the hall and call it even with him.... Big Hurt needs one, maybe two more seasons like he had in the early-mid 90s. would love to see him get in. like Griffey, he's one of the only untainted talents of that time.....
too bad about Bonds, because if it weren't for steroids, i still think he would have a clean shot. Hits for average, good in the field and even if 200 of his home runs were tainted and should have gone for routine flyball outs, he would still have over 500. now he's gonna break Aaron's record and forever taint the Halls with at least that......
and every player should have streaks like Ripken. i'm not impressed. getting paid 15mil/year? get yr ass out there! and there were hundreds of half-inning games for Ripken JUST to keep that streak alive, not to mention the LUCK of simply never getting hurt. it does a player good to sit out a game or two. all that streak did was balloon his 82TT card up to $300......stupid card never had any business IN that set in the first place (sorry, small vent)...... >>
I disagree with everything you've just said. Wow! The Big Hurt is in. He was the BEST player in baseball for a decent stretch in the nineties.
Bonds probably would have made it, but I don't think he's ever been classified as a good OF. (Especially his arm strength).
Did you forget that Ripken never missed an inning for years and years. He didn't get that record cheaply.
Know your facts, man, before you vent!
<< <i>and there were hundreds of half-inning games for Ripken JUST to keep that streak alive >>
Really? From 83-87, Cal played in 8,243 consecutive innings and when he finally game out of a game in '87 it was the bottom of the 8th with the O's down 15 runs.
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
if he is nominated, i wouldn't be surprised if he is wearing a non-chicago-white-sox jersey also.
julen
RIP GURU
In addition, Ripken has failed to play the entire game only 12 times, although four of those times have come in the last 19 games as Ripken said he has discovered"sometimes it's good"to come out of games that have been decided before the ninth inning. As a result, he has played 12,897 of a possible 12,939 innings.
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
<< <i>and there were hundreds of half-inning games for Ripken JUST to keep that streak alive... >>
Um...
From May 30, 1982 through September 6, 1995, Ripken not only played in every game, he played in virtually every inning. He played in 19,163 of a possible 19,330 innings, a staggering 99.1 percent of the total innings.
link
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
secondly, If the ball and the players were juiced in the 90's, then why didn't every player hit at least fifty homers.
If even the picthers used, than how could have mcgwire hit 70?
From what I gather, steroid precursors and hGH work only if the pesson workout, practices, and regulates their usage. Not6 only that can guarantee success, because the key ingrediant need to elevate a player to hero status is "talent"
The player needs to have 'inate' talent already.
Sosa, Mcgwire, and Bonds had this already, but because of Physical (and in case of Bonds) Psychological maladies, these players did not "Break out" until the performance enhancing era began.
Sadly, barry Bonds didn't even need to use performance enhancing drugs sicne he was already so good and consistent. As detailed previously, his use wasn't in order to save his career or to break an impossible record. It was done just so that he could be idolized and no one else.
Mark Mcgwire was incredible in 1998 and should be allowed in the Hall of Fame, because it will soon be uncovered that EVERY Player was using performance enhancing drugs during the time period.
Mcgwire admitted to using creatine, and even if he used something else, he still needed to work out and hit the ball.
Lastly, Mcgwire probably knew that in the court of public opinion he would be seen as guilty, but the other option, as exercised by canseco, would have left him as utterly pathetic. He exercised his right to not incrimate himself against charges of doing something which passed five years earlier in a sport he was not a part of anymore.
In fact didn't it seem like he wanted to say the truth but knew that he couldn't. Teh truth after all is taht EVERY player used a Wide Variety of performance enhancing drugs. Every one!
To say the truth would have completely destroyed the sport of baseball.
Instead Mark Mcgwire let the world judge only him as guilty and allow the other players next to him and in baseball to have an opportunity to change.
He could have lied to Congress and waved his finger saying he loves America and never ever took any performance enhancing drugs, just like Rafael Palmiero. The congress would have fully believed him and since he is " a hero" they would have not challenged him.
But Mcgwire's character could not allow him to do this. This is important because Mcgwire refused not only to say the entire truth but refused to lie as well! He did this to save his friends, his sport, and his concience.
when men are forced to remain stern against accusations, the preceedings are not an inquiry, but a witch hunt.
Since afterall Major League Baseball allowed everything to happen, and teh governemnt di nothing as well.
<< <i>But Mcgwire's character could not allow him to do this. >>
McGwire has no character. He's a cheater, a liar, and a fraud. He doesn't belong anywhere near anything that will give him a legacy in the game of baseball. Simple as that.
"I agree with that. I don't think of Ripken's streak as a big deal. Not that it wasn't VERY impressive but I don't think the average fan really cared as much about the streak as they did about the home run chase. That home run chase in '98 was PRIME TIME tv, magazine covers, etc.... It was one of the biggest news stories of the year; not just sports. Ripken's streak was a sports story primarily in my opinion. >>
I also agree with this. No body outside of baseball cares about the streak. While all of America (and a lot of the world) was watching the home run race. We got daily updates in the evening news. Every magazine. Everything that had anything to do with sports was talking homeruns....and this lasted till the end of the season. Rather then a one game show with little overall fanfare.
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
McGwire will get in eventually, you have to keep in mind that the whole era is going to be affected by the steriod thing, meaning that since we don't know who was on and for how long we cannot figure out the impact on statistics with any certainty.
The only solution would be to automatically exclude everyone from the era, and that just isn't realistic.
As for Thomas I'm still trying to figure out the thinking of people who suggest he needs anything more. Forget about the HR statistics for a moment and look at the rest... 1500 RBI's and a .305 CAREER batting average over 17 seasons suggest Thomas was an all-time great HITTER, rather than just a power hitter.
Also if you want, just take a peek at what his average 162 game season would look like:
38 HR, 122 RBI, .305 AVG.
Those are superb numbers in any era. Doesn't hurt that Frank had 10 .300 AVG seasons and 9 in which he had at least 30 homers and 100 RBI. That my friends, is called consistent greatness.
Thomas could retire today, and only voters who were high would deny him first ballot HOF status.
<< <i>and there were hundreds of half-inning games for Ripken JUST to keep that streak alive >>
Plus, you have to play at least 5-1/2 innings for it to count as a game played. That's why they didn't celebrate his feat until after the top of the 5th. **EDIT**
**You're right, the name calling was uncalled for, I'm sorry, I get heated up a little when people talk bad about that**
The HR chase was watched by EVERYONE. As was noted, it was front page news, it was everywhere.
Anyone remember the ad campaign 'chicks dig the longball'? The HR chase saved baseball and paved the way for the resurgance of fans (especially the casual fan) to come back to baseball.
<< <i>
<< <i>and there were hundreds of half-inning games for Ripken JUST to keep that streak alive >>
Plus, you have to play at least 5-1/2 innings for it to count as a game played. That's why they didn't celebrate his feat until after the top of the 5th. Moron. >>
Not true. They waited until the bottom of the 5th because, at that point, it became a legal game. Until that point, it could have been rained out and not counted.
Are you suggesting that relief pitchers, like closers, who only play an inning per game don't get credit for a game played? Come on.
Tabe
This is how it should read.........
"The HR chase saved baseball and paved the way for the resurgence of fans (especially the casual fan) to come back to baseball which explains why baseball ownership and the league turned a blind eye towards the use of substances used by players to enhance their on field performance. Now those same fans are using this as an excuse to excoriate the players they have always disliked while claiming, without any evidence to back it up, that their favorite players could not possibly have used HGH or steroids because they were either "always a big guy" or they "didn't hit enough long balls to cast doubt on their squeaky clean reputations". The fact is, nobody except the player himself knows for sure unless the player admitted it publicly.
You can debate this crap all you want, and it is a very interesting topic, but unless MLB is willing to ban every single player since steroids, designer steroids and HGH were 1st synthesized and made available to athletes, then they cannot possibly make martyrs out of those few players whom they suspect were using these substances. What they need is a testing program, which would have to include blood testing (for HGH) or some yet to be invented urine test for HGH, and a tougher policy regarding the use of these substances instead of the 4 strikes and you're out (albeit only for a season) policy they have now. For a player making $20 or $30M a year, what's the downside of taking HGH if he can make an extra $5 to $10M per year even if he's caught? Automatic loss of HOF eligibility and being banned from the game permanently is what needs to happen going forward, but making martyrs out of a few high profile players is bad policy.
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Player tests positive for steroids any banned substance, they are not eligible for the Hall. Make it a one strike and you're out policy. Bonds has admitted (grand jury testimony) he used steroids, he's out. Palmiero tested positive for steroids, he's out.
McGwire? Sosa? No tests, no admissions, they're eligible for the Hall. Last time I checked you can't penalize a guy for 'possibly, maybe' using.
<< <i>
McGwire? Sosa? No tests, no admissions, they're eligible for the Hall. Last time I checked you can't penalize a guy for 'possibly, maybe' using. >>
In theory I agree. But the lastest HOF election showed otherwise...
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My Pirates Collection
maybe joe sixpack or tina trailertrash wasnt as impressed with Cal, but real baseball fans were moved by the accomplishment. A lot of diehards who felt betrayed by the strike looked at rikpen jogging around the field, high fiving the fans etc. came back to the game.
The home run chase was exciting, but to an educated fan it was surreal and unrealistic. Baseball and fans looked the other way because they like homeruns and it put people in the seats.