Let's start a new HOF Debate. Who among these guys gets in?

RonBurgundy · February 28, 2007 11:10PM

Current players:

Biggio
Sheffield
Frank Thomas
Glavine
Manny Ramirez
Thome
Mussina
Schilling
Pedro
Nomar

I've intentionally excluded locks such as Clemens, Griffey Jr., Maddux, Rivera, etc. and avoided roided up clowns such as Bonds, Sosa, etc.

Ron

larryallen73 · February 28, 2007 11:21PM

Thomas and Glavine.

Pedro and Nomar with a couple more strong years.

Brian48 · February 28, 2007 11:22PM

Biggio - Most likely if weight is given to his position, but not on first try.
Sheffield - Nah. Good player though.
Frank Thomas - Most likely, but maybe not on first try.
Glavine - Yes
Manny Ramirez - Yes
Thome - Nah
Mussina - Nah
Schilling - Borderline. Not on first try and may take some campaigning.
Pedro - Yes
Nomar - Nah

CON40 · February 28, 2007 11:24PM

I'd go with these guys...

Craig Biggio: Consistency, durability and longevity at three different positions (similar to Molitor).
Frank Thomas: The best unjuiced slugger of the era, plus 2 MVP awards. Gets minus points for being a DH, but still gets in.
Tom Glavine: Underrated. As solid as they come in the modern era.
Manny Ramírez: One of the 10 best RH hitters of all time.
Pedro Martínez: The best pitcher I have ever seen in person. If he had Clemens' build, he'd have won 400 games.

The others are certainly good players, but given the era of exploding offensive stats for hitters, Sheffield, Thome, and Nomar just haven't put up enough numbers. Mussina and Schilling haven't been dominant enough to merit consideration.

markj111 · February 28, 2007 11:26PM

Biggio-Yes
Sheffield-No
Frank Thomas-Yes
Glavine-Yes
Manny Ramirez-Yes
Thome-?
Mussina-No
Schilling-No
Pedro-Yes
Nomar-not unless he buys a ticket-not close at this point

I consider all my yes answers to be absolute locks except for Manny. I expect him to be in, the others are in if they retired to today. I believe everyone on the list has a decent shot except Nomar.

kcballboy · February 28, 2007 11:27PM

Biggio - Yes - 3,000 hits and top 5-10 in all-time doubles
Sheffield - 500 Hr's would help, but I just don't think he was "that guy" enough to get in
Thomas is a lock if he gets to 500, if not then he's a "but he was dominate for x number of years" guy
Glavine - a possible 300 win pitcher in today's game is an absolute lock
Manny - Yes, one of the best hitters in the era, possibly ever
Thome - Maybe close. I think he has to get in the 550-600 hr's to get in. Not enough clout in other areas
Mussina - probably not, had the benefit of being on good teams and his ERA isn't that good
Schilling - If he gets in it will be from the K totals and the bloody sock, I say no for now
Pedro - Dominate pitcher who would get in if he quit now
Nomar - Noway unless he stays healthy and gets another 1,000 hits in the next 5 years. Then maybe

Stone193 · February 28, 2007 11:29PM

You guys are covering the bases pretty good.

One thing...

I'm really disappointed in Nomar - I had higher expectations for him.

mike

mikeschmidt · February 28, 2007 11:32PM

Biggio, yes esp. if he gets >3,000
Sheffield will be tough, I think, but if his career BA went over .300, it would help
Frank Thomas -- one more season like last, and I think he'll get in
Tom Glavine - yes
Manny Ramirez - yes
Jim Thome - with one or two more solid seasons, yes
Mike Mussina - probably not
Pedro - yes. I would consider him a lock.
Nomar - way too early to tell.

bigfische · February 28, 2007 11:34PM

Lets throw in chipper jones and John smoltz also

for the rest:

Biggio-yes
Sheffield-no
Frank Thomas-yes
Glavine-yes
Manny Ramirez-yes
Thome-no
Mussina-no
Schilling-yes
Pedro-yes
Nomar-no

Chipper-yes
Smoltz-yes

css23 · February 28, 2007 11:46PM

Smoltz with one 20 win season in 18yrs? I'll pass.

Dont forget The Big Unit!

kcballboy · February 28, 2007 11:47PM

<< Lets throw in chipper jones and John smoltz also

for the rest:

Biggio-yes
Sheffield-no
Frank Thomas-yes
Glavine-yes
Manny Ramirez-yes
Thome-no
Mussina-no
Schilling-yes
Pedro-yes
Nomar-no

Chipper-yes
Smoltz-yes >>

I think both Smotz and Larry Wayne will be borderline guys that we will debate for years. I don't think either is clear cut at this time, however Chipper does have a few years left to pad his resume.

jeffcbay · February 28, 2007 11:48PM

Biggio-Yes
Sheffield-No
Frank Thomas-No
Glavine-No
Manny Ramirez-Yes
Thome-Yes
Mussina-No
Schilling-Yes
Pedro-Yes
Nomar-No

gosteelers · February 28, 2007 11:51PM

Biggio-Yes, eventually
Sheffield-No
Frank Thomas-Yes, not on first ballot
Glavine-Lock
Manny Ramirez-Probably first ballot
Thome-Not yet, another 1-2 good years, maybe
Mussina-No
Schilling-Not enough complete, solid seasons
Pedro-Lock
Nomar-No

MuckyMutt · February 28, 2007 11:53PM

I'll go with Frank Thomas and Glavine.

Anybody think Julio Franco deserves some consideration? Maybe just for longevity?

And he has a .299 career avg.

shagrotn77 · February 28, 2007 11:54PM

Biggio - Yes
Sheffield - Better than average shot
Frank Thomas - Yes
Glavine - Yes
Manny Ramirez - Yes
Thome - Probably
Mussina - If he gets to 300, yes
Schilling - This year counts a lot, but probably
Pedro - Yes
Nomar - No

In addition to the no-brainers you listed, I'd also include Randy Johnson, Arod, Vladimir and Piazza.

Pudge, Hoffman, Pujols, Jeter and Ichiro will make it in too. Chipper's also got a good shot, as do Tejada and Smoltzy. If Santana continues his dominance, he'll be a first-ballot guy.

shagrotn77 · February 28, 2007 11:56PM

<< Smoltz with one 20 win season in 18yrs? I'll pass. >>

See Dennis Eckersley.

<< Anybody think Julio Franco deserves some consideration? >>

No way. Do you want to put Jesse Orosco in too?

Volver · February 28, 2007 11:57PM

Biggio - Yes, but not 1st time
Sheffield - No
Frank Thomas - Yes, but not 1st time
Glavine - Yes, probably 1st ballot
Manny Ramirez - Yes - 1st ballot
Thome - Yes - with 2 more solid years
Mussina - No
Schilling - No
Pedro - Yes 1st ballot
Nomar - No

bigfische · March 1, 2007 12:01AM

<< Smoltz with one 20 win season in 18yrs? I'll pass.

Dont forget The Big Unit! >>

Most wins in post season history and a dominant closer for a period of time will cancel this out.

Volver · March 1, 2007 12:04AM

With the advent of the Wild Card, post season stats have lost some of their luster.

I think Albert Belle should have had more consideration, but b/c the writers hated him he had no chance. He was a terror for his short career and played on very good teams.

Brian48 · March 1, 2007 12:07AM

The game has also evolved to the point where pitchers do not need the traditional lofty numbers that they used to need to even get a sniff.

RonBurgundy · March 1, 2007 12:22AM

Interesting discussion so far. Here are my own thoughts:

Biggio - a lock assuming he gets to 3000.

Sheffield - Ugh. If he gets to 500, let the debate begin and I'm sure he'll tell you how good he was. I would vote no.

Frank Thomas - 500 homers gets him in. For a while, the most feared hitter in baseball.

Glavine - 300 gets him in.

Manny Ramirez - Yes, assuming he gets to 500 and doesn't pull any truly knuckleheaded stunts along the way. People overlook his hitting prowess sometimes; the guy can flat out rake.

Thome - I think he gets in with 500, certainly 550 homers. Kind of the Harmon Killebrew of our time, only a better overall hitter.

Mussina - doubtful. A very, very good pitcher however.

Schilling - I don't believe he has Hall worthy numbers, but the postseason adds to his lore and he may get in eventually.

Pedro - The Juan Marichal of our time, only better. In.

Nomar - no, unless he puts up some serious numbers over the next 3-5 years.

Others: Too early to tell on Jones. I don't think Smoltz gets in if Schilling doesn't. Pudge, Jeter, A-Fraud, Pujols, Clemens, Maddux, Griffey Jr., and Randy Johnson are all headed in the Hall's direction. Most of these guys are locks.

MuckyMutt · March 1, 2007 12:23AM

Rickey Henderson...

bigfische · March 1, 2007 12:24AM

Henderson will get in.

Volver · March 1, 2007 12:47AM

Henderson is a shoe-in...1st ballot no-brainer

BobaFett72 · March 1, 2007 12:48AM

Biggio: yes, eventually
Sheffield: depends on the steroids issue.
Frank Thomas: if he plays for 2 more years and puts up decent numbers, absolutely
Glavine: a lock.
Manny Ramirez: no doubt
Thome: classy guy, some superb numbers, a genuine steroid free slugger thats gonna club 500+ homers? a lock.
Mussina: nope, not gonna happen, never truly dominated
Schilling: borderline
Pedro: yup, a lock
Nomar: too many injuries, not evenclose

cravetopps · March 1, 2007 1:00AM

Biggio - Not unless he has a miraculous resurgence
Sheffield - No
Frank Thomas - yes, eventually
Glavine - slam dunk
Manny Ramirez - slam dunk
Thome - yes if he gets to 550 HR
Mussina - yes, if 300 wins and/or 3000 SO but not looking good; no multiple 20 win seasons hurt
Schilling - no; too many injuries
Pedro - slam dunk
Nomar - yes but needs another 4 or 5 years and a LT BA over 300

Volver · March 1, 2007 1:10AM

Honestly, I question why Nomar is even in the discussion. Maybe 5 year ago, but not now. Hardly dominant and the injuries kill him.

Baseball-reference has him compared to the following

Miguel Tejada (850)
Chick Hafey (841) *
Ken Williams (835)
Magglio Ordonez (823)
Wally Berger (815)
Scott Rolen (804)
Jackie Robinson (802) *
Rich Aurilia (799)
Hack Wilson (794) *
Travis Jackson (790) *

Biggio was not dominant, but he played everyday, was rarely hurt and was the picture of consistency.

Look at who baseball-reference has Biggio compared with...pretty good company

Robin Yount (831) *
Joe Morgan (817) *
Roberto Alomar (816)
Lou Whitaker (776)
Paul Molitor (776) *
Ryne Sandberg (765) *
Cal Ripken (753) *
Charlie Gehringer (751) *
Brooks Robinson (741) *
Vada Pinson (732)

DaBigHurt · March 1, 2007 1:17AM

Do we know for certain Jim Thome never did roids? I'm not saying he did, but I have no idea if he did or not. Up until yesterday, I didn't think Gary Matthews Jr. did HGH or roids, but you never know anymore.

Volver · March 1, 2007 1:20AM

Not for sure about Thome, who has "bulked" up since he came into the league. Thome does not look defined like a Sosa, Bonds or McGwire...Thome just looks thick and big

cravetopps · March 1, 2007 1:21AM

only the guys the press hates used steroids. the others get a free pass.

stown · March 1, 2007 1:22AM

Biggio - 1st ballot

No one else matters

shagrotn77 · March 1, 2007 1:26AM

What's all this 'probably' talk regarding Biggio??? The guy is going to collect his 3,000th hit this year, plus he's one of the best second basemen of all time. He's a first-ballot lock - unless by some miracle he does not reach 3,000. Without checking, I think he's about 90 away.

DaBigHurt · March 1, 2007 1:26AM

<< Not for sure about Thome, who has "bulked" up since he came into the league. Thome does not look defined like a Sosa, Bonds or McGwire...Thome just looks thick and big >>

Thome has definitely put on a lot of weight. But nobody ever accused Rafael Palmeiro or Jason Grimsley of being body builders, but look at what we found out.

Unfortunately, nobody is safe from the steroid/HGH cloud in baseball's steroid era.

Volver · March 1, 2007 1:28AM

Biggio has 2930 hits....I agree he is a lock, just not sure about 1st ballot

artistlost · March 1, 2007 1:33AM

Someone mentioned Santana...how about Roy Halladay...I know it's early in his career but he is conisdered by most to be if not the best one of them.

artistlost · March 1, 2007 1:34AM

one more...now that he is retired...Bagwell?

Volver · March 1, 2007 1:36AM

Halladay I would say no..he turns 30 this year and has 95 wins. I think someone like CC Sabathia would have a better shot than a Halladay.

Santana needs about 7 to 10 more years at his current pace and he could be in

kcballboy · March 1, 2007 1:37AM

<< one more...now that he is retired...Bagwell? >>

He was always one of my favorites. Unfortunately I don't quite think he has enough to get in. If anything he should get bonus points for being able to hit anything with that goofy a$$ swing.

artistlost · March 1, 2007 1:38AM

good point. Halladay started too late. still a damn good pitcher.

artistlost · March 1, 2007 1:40AM

how about Delgado? he should easily hit 500 HRs. (but then i thought McGriff would have too)

Morgoth · March 1, 2007 2:47AM

Why no love for Mussina? He has a 0.644 winning percentage and played on some bad teams with the Orioles. And if you want to compare him with similar players, 5 of the most similar players are HOF's and at least 2 others being highly considered (Glavine, Schilling).

Juan Marichal (915) *
Jack Morris (873)
Clark Griffith (869) *
Bob Welch (867)
Carl Hubbell (860) *
Curt Schilling (857)
Tom Glavine (857)
Jim Bunning (854) *
Bob Gibson (850) *
Kevin Brown (847)

300 wins will not be the magical number for modern pitchers like it was in the days of 4 man rotations. I think any pitcher who started in the 1990's and gets to 250 wins will be a strong contender for the Hall. He had a strong last season with a 3.51 ERA and was top 10 in ERA, WHIP, SO/9 and SO. Also the 20 win number is just a number it's like saying Aaron didn't have enough 50 or 60 HR seasons. He did have 7 years of 17 or more wins. Wins again are overated as the team and other players really affect that number.

cravetopps · March 1, 2007 3:01AM

Mussina has a great shot, no question.

tombo · March 1, 2007 4:36AM

Biggio - Yes, after a couple tries
Sheffield - it wold take a weaker than averaage ballot
Frank Thomas - Yes, definite
Glavine - Yes
Manny Ramirez - Yes
Thome - it would take monster HR #'s (600)
Mussina - not likely
Schilling - I'd go with Schilling over Mussina - he has that magic Series moment like Brooks Robby over Reds in 1970
Pedro - Yes
Nomar - Not unless he finishes career like his 1st 9 years instead of last few

Volver · March 1, 2007 4:50AM

I am surprised Thome is somewhat of a question mark. In his 13 year career he has had....40 HR's 6 times, 100 RBI 9 times, scored 100 runs 8 times..has a .282 career BA, played in two W/S with 17 post season home runs....although his post season BA is something to be desired .229

stown · March 1, 2007 5:01AM

<< 

<< one more...now that he is retired...Bagwell? >>

He was always one of my favorites. Unfortunately I don't quite think he has enough to get in. If anything he should get bonus points for being able to hit anything with that goofy a$$ swing. >>

Are you talking about the squatting to take a poo stance?

He should get in the Hall but unfortunately, he will proabably get grouped with steriod users.

It's a shame but it is what it is.

shagrotn77 · March 1, 2007 5:03AM

<< Biggio has 2930 hits....I agree he is a lock, just not sure about 1st ballot >>

Look at all the other 3,000 hit guys who've been inducted recently. Murray, Brett, Yount, Molitor, Boggs, Ripken and Winfield. They were all first ballot inductees. I think the first one to break this string will be Palmeiro. Biggio's dominance at his position (2B) will also help his cause - not that you really need anything on top on 3,000 hits. I just can't see him not being inducted first ballot. Heck, if he's not, I'll send each member of this board a crisp $1 bill.

Volver · March 1, 2007 5:04AM

Bagwell was nothing more than Dave Kingman with a funny stance

markj111 · March 1, 2007 5:06AM

<< Bagwell was nothing more than Dave Kingman with a funny stance >>

It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

kcballboy · March 1, 2007 5:07AM

<< Bagwell was nothing more than Dave Kingman with a funny stance >>

Except that Bagwell could hit for average, extra base hits that weren't home runs, take a walk, be a 30-30 1st baseman, and I think he even won a GG. You're right, other than that they were identical.

Volver · March 1, 2007 5:07AM

You can do better than some Abe Lincoln quote.

My own thought is Bagwell was good, great at times, but not a HOF

bobsbbcards · March 1, 2007 5:08AM

Pedro Martinez is a lock. He's 23rd all-time already in Bill James HOF monitor. Thomas, Ramirez, Biggio, Sheffield, Schilling, Glavine, and Smoltz will also make it. Thome, Garciaperra, and Mussina are less likely. Ton of other players will be more deserving.

HOF Monitor (where > 100 is likely HOFer) for players not yet eligible:

345 B. Bonds
266 A. Rodriguez
212 I. Rodriguez
209 K. Griffey Jr.
205 M. Piazza
193 R. Alomar
192 D. Jeter
191 S. Sosa
186 R. Henderson
184 F. Thomas
182 M. Ramirez
180 R. Palmiero
163 V. Guerrero
161 T. Helton
154 A. Pujols
149 J. Bagwell
147 L. Walker
145 C. Biggio
145 I. Suzuki
133 B. Williams
132 G. Sheffield
131 E. Martinez
128 C. Jones
127 J. Thome
120 N. Garciaperra
120 J. Gonzalez
118 B. Larkin
114 A. Galarraga
108 O. Vizquel
103 J. Kent
100 C. Delgado
100 A. Jones
100 F. McGriff

HOF Monitor for pitchers not yet eligible:

326 R. Clemens
320 R. Jones
241 G. Maddux
193 P. Martinez
173 M. Rivera
167 C. Schilling
166 T. Glavine
142 J. Smoltz
132 T. Hoffman
124 J. Franco
109 M. Mussina
103 D. Cone
103 J. Mesa

Let's start a new HOF Debate. Who among these guys gets in?

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