Is "PCGS AU-58" becoming a de facto MS-63?

ziggy29

1871 IHC in PCGS 58 sells for over $1,000

The PCGS price guide shows this coin at $775 in 64BN and $1300 in 65BN.

This coin's high bid more than doubled in the last 30 seconds.

This seems to be more and more common. It seems like when you put "PCGS" and "AU-58" together, people start opening up their wallets to the MS-63 level or so, and in this case, quite a bit more.

It's just not that much of a "value grade" any more. AU-55 or even XF-45, maybe. Not so much 58. I'm getting seriously tempted to sell all of my PCGS 58s while the market is trading them like 62s and 63s with increasing regularity.

Barndog

<< <i>1871 IHC in PCGS 58 sells for over $1,000

The PCGS price guide shows this coin at $775 in 64BN and $1300 in 65BN.

This coin's high bid more than doubled in the last 30 seconds.

This seems to be more and more common. It seems like when you put "PCGS" and "AU-58" together, people start opening up their wallets to the MS-63 level or so, and in this case, quite a bit more.

It's just not that much of a "value grade" any more. AU-55 or even XF-45, maybe. Not so much 58. I'm getting seriously tempted to sell all of my PCGS 58s while the market is trading them like 62s and 63s with increasing regularity. >>



that would likely be a very profitable move.

TwoSides2aCoin

Buy the coin, not the SUBJECTIVE grade on the label

291fifth

The real problem is that grading standards are now approaching the point of total collapse.

The implications of this for the top TPG's are serious. Are they paying attention, or is it too late for them to pay attention?

mirabela

I should hope the people paying this way are being very selective and particular when they do so, as I have seen plenty of PCGS AU58 coins that are just that -- nice AU coins -- but in no way comparable to a true choice Unc. Sometimes AU58 is a place to pick up comparable appeal for a little less money, and sometimes it isn't.

The real "a-ha" here, if you are interested in the coin above all, is in the fact that coins exist in ICG, ANACS, and NGC 58 holders that are graded every bit as strictly as the strictes PCGS 58, and in most case you *won't* pay 63 for them. **Those**, IMO, are the coins to be buying.

garsmith

either someone bought the coin and not the holder or there where some bidiots involved! eighter way it worked out good for the seller!

ccex

<< <i>...
This seems to be more and more common. It seems like when you put "PCGS" and "AU-58" together, people start opening up their wallets to the MS-63 level or so, and in this case, quite a bit more.

It's just not that much of a "value grade" any more. AU-55 or even XF-45, maybe. Not so much 58. I'm getting seriously tempted to sell all of my PCGS 58s while the market is trading them like 62s and 63s with increasing regularity. >>



I don't know how common it is for an AU-58 to fetch ab MS-63 or higher price. I'd like to see more than just a couple of data points. However, I've noticed that "MS-60" is now given out to only the ugliest uncirculated coins, and condemns a coin to a value less than AU-58. I've heard several dealers describe AU-58 as "MS-63 with rub", although I've seen some AU-58 coins with surface hits which would prevent that coin from grading 63 if it really were uncirculated. Perhaps the questions should be:

1) Is PCGS AU-58 always worth more than PCGS MS-60?
2) Is PCGS MS-61 now a de facto MS-60?
3) How often is a PCGS AU-58 a better coin than a PCGS MS-62?

ricko

Well... someone, a few days ago, said US collectors cannot grade very well, Could be true and people not understanding grades are buying the plastic. Cheers, RickO

410a

It seems to me that "Laura at Legend" is always commenting on how strict the TPGs are being when it comes to assigning grades. Now, IMHO, I would consider the source that particular "link" brings us to that being "Ebay". Again, IMHO there is NO RYTHM OR REASON FOR WHAT GOES ON AT EBAY. You can never tell what can happen next there, bidding wars and what not.
Again, just an opinion on this one sale.

ziggy29

<< <i>I don't know how common it is for an AU-58 to fetch ab MS-63 or higher price. I'd like to see more than just a couple of data points. >>

I've tracked a huge number of AU-58 coins because that's where my type set has historically focused. While it's still the exception and not the rule to get 63 money, there's no question in my mind, based on what I've tracked, that the nicer 58 coins are trading for higher and higher money relative to the 60-63 grades. They used to sell for about MS-60 money, then more often closer to 61 money and now closer to 62 money. What's happening, I think, is that the really 'PQ' coins in 58 plastic are fewer and farther between because of the twin scourges of gradeflation and the crackout game.

<< <i>1) Is PCGS AU-58 always worth more than PCGS MS-60? >>

Other than condition rarities, usually. But for condition rarities -- for example, 1884-S, 1896-O and 1901-P Morgans -- nope.

<< <i>2) Is PCGS MS-61 now a de facto MS-60? >>

Not really, IMO. Close to it, but not quite. It is true, though, that there is a stigma on the 'MS-60' grade that says 'I'm a dog!' I occasionally see nice coins in an MS-60 holder and these may be a better value than even the so-called 'value grade' of AU-58.

<< <i>3) How often is a PCGS AU-58 a better coin than a PCGS MS-62? >>

Define "better." Do you mean few hits and problems, as in a comparison that disregards the rub? The ones that are nicer than a 62 are the ones that aren't likely to remain in 58 plastic for long.

Shamika

Alas, I see so many AU58 coins in MS63 slabs that the point is almost moot.

TwoSides2aCoin

Ziggy, ya know, the more I ponder your initial post, the more I think the values of "58's" is up because of registry set building and NOT because of anything else.
I guess if a guy needs AU58, he could always buy an MS60/61... put his little greasy mit on it and re submit... this would ensure it comes back AU58 in the crack-out game.
Actually, maybe PCGS could start offering this service.

"In the event a collector is building a registry set in AU 58 condition, PCGS will, with written permission of the submitter, put a thumb print on it to lower it's condtion. However, due to this being part of a registry set, there will be an additional charge of $75 USD for this service".

Excellent thread, ziggy... You always give me REVENUE generating ideas

ziggy29

<< <i>Ziggy, ya know, the more I ponder your initial post, the more I think the values of "58's" is up because of registry set building and NOT because of anything else. >>

Who knows? I was putting up a type set in 58 but the premium for the grade -- often more than similar coins in 61 and even 62 holders -- put the kibosh on that for the most part. I suppose if people want a specific number on a slab badly enough to pay more than double the sheet value for it, more power to them. But I suspect they could have got a nice 63BN for considerably less.

I think I'll probably focus more on the 45-50 range in the future. Certainly some 58s are worth a large premium -- I've been offered 4x sheet for an AU-58 trime of mine -- but this is a fairly ordinary nice slider here, albeit of a better date. Would it have fetched this much money as a 62 or even a 63? Hard to say, but I suspect possibly not.

Cladiator

Magic58™

OKbustchaser

There are so many--in fact most of them that I see--TPG MS-63's that are really AU-58's that it as gotten to the point that a properly graded 58 is worth the same as the average 63. Nothing "magic" about the 58 number--just a result of market grading.

Edited to add as a clarification after rereading what I wrote...

I think it is more a case of the MS-63 grade becoming a de facto 58.

coinlieutenant

I think having PCGS AU58's is the exception...not the norm.

If you were to say something like 20% over 60 money on a regular basis...I might be convinced to bite.

John

Bear

I think that the process of correcting

the problem is now underway. It took

time to create the problem and it will take

time to correct the problem.

Fletcher

Nice

Monstavet

I think it is interesting that the seller did not really HYPE the coin as a "sure upgrade" or anything. In fact, the seller lists a high and low price range that were well below the final price. The pics are not so great to really give any idea of how this coin really looks. Interesting...very interesting.