Any body else read the 03/05 Coin World article about the "new theory" about the Wisconsin

notlogical

" A article by Eric von Klinger says,

"Dies that produced 'extra leaf' 2004-D Wisconsin quarter dollars were intentionally so marked with a tool before they received final hardening to make them ready for the coining process, researcher Chris Pilliod has concluded."


It goes on to say that he (Mr. Pilliod) thinks a tool was used and was hand punched. The article said Mr. Pilliod thinks the extra leaf low looked like it was punched by a right handed person and that the same tool was used at a different angle to make the extra leaf high.

It said Mr. Piliod also tested some state quarter dies that had been ground down to test their hardness. One he tried to use a punch tool and a ball peen hammer into hardened dies but it wouldn't "penetrate the surface". Then another he heated to 1,595 degrees and "slow cooled it to soften the steel". "With the same tool, I was almost able to duplicate the 'extra leaves', to the same depth", he said. Isn't that cool?!

He finished by saying, "What the tests told us was that the extra leaves were added after hubbing, before final treatment and were done intenionally."

I thought it was a really article and think everyone should read it. It starts on page 5 and ends on page 26.

ricko

So is there a search on for the responsible party?? Cheers, RickO

DRUNNER

Thanks . . . very logical. :-)

Drunner

dcarr

I disagree. I think this sort of die damage happens fairly often (unintentionally). Most of the time, the censors catch it. But because these just happend to look like leaves, the marks escaped detection by the inspectors.

291fifth

I have thought both types to be intentional ever since they first appeared.

Hugegut

BigDaddyz

i"m not sure we'll ever know...too big a cover-up at the mint

MAD4MORGANS

I think it was absloutely intentional to stimulate the interest of coin collectors.

Hugegut

MadMarty

<< <i>I disagree. I think this sort of die damage happens fairly often (unintentionally). Most of the time, the censors catch it. But because these just happend to look like leaves, the marks escaped detection by the inspectors. >>




Do you have high and low D Carr coins???

leothelyon

So.......do those coins now fall under another catagory other than variety?

Leo

CaptHenway

<< <i>I would probably buy into the accidental damage theory if it wasn't for the curious placement of the marks. The marks connect with the stem so perfectly. What are the odds of this happening from random damage? And Twice!
I think there are 2 possibilities :
1) Willfull vandalism of the dies.
2) There were a couple of "training dies" laying around that they used to practice die touch-ups and they accidentally got mixed in with regular production dies.
I'm sure we'll know some day. >>



Just remember, these two dies are only two of at least five different (two quarter, two cent and one dime) dies damaged by the end of various circular tools and/or punched of unknown origin over two different years. Nobody yet knows if these marks were deliberate or random damage.

I am reminded that many Carson City dies show heavy die gouges that occured before the dies were hardened. The 1890-CC tailbar dollar is merely one example of this phenomenon.

TD

PerryHall

The fact that they look like leaves and they are in the exact possition where a leaf would be on the stalk leads me to believe they were intentional. Who or why may never be known.

lasvegasteddy

i question anyone's proffesional stature if they test hardness with a ball peen hammer and a punch on a known hardened die to begin with and write about it....15 years as an machinist speakin there

die damage happening fairly often too i question as dies are not a loosely handled item especially in soft state

i go back in my corner now

lasvegasteddy

and i still say the die maker caught um not looken while dies were still soft-it was monday morning and the inspector was hung over and not all have made it out of the facility yet but the're workin on it with how they went over...CHA...CHING

hiyosilver

Don't make me post pics of my (die dent) Wi. SHQ's......

notlogical

<< <i>Don't make me post pics of my (die dent) Wi. SHQ's...... >>



Please do Mr. Reyes, it's too!

hiyosilver

these were found in Az...I doubt they are purposely made.

cladking

<< <i>these were found in Az...I doubt they are purposely made.

] >>





As Mr. Spock might say; "Very interesting".

Had they actually been found with the extra leaf quarters then it would
argue for an accidental origin, but this is a different shape and their lo-
cation must be simple coincidence.

19Lyds

How could the same tool be used as the extra leaves appear to be of different shapes? More specifically, the upper is a single mark while the lower has three distinct lines to the right.



The Low leaf also appears to have a longer arc than the Hi leaf.

renman95

I can't say with any certainty what the caused the error, but I do know that all this publicity is (almost) priceless and is reflected in a stable increasing value in all grades.

Something to ponder, some say there may be thousands of smoothed-rim GW dollars (out of 300 million) ready to be found. Let's say there are 15,000 coins, will they be worth $100's to $1,000's depending on condition?

And if you have a usmint.gov wrapper-roll that cost $15 over face, are you tempted to break open the roll for a "smoothie" tm.

Sorry for the sidetrack.

Ren

leothelyon

<< <i>How could the same tool be used as the extra leaves appear to be of different shapes? More specifically, the upper is a single mark while the lower has three distinct lines to the right.



The Low leaf also appears to have a longer arc than the Hi leaf. >>



I was thinking the same thing. What part of the design is getting duplicated by the added mark or leaf...from the punch? I don't see any similarities to back up such a claim.

Leo

EagleEye

LasVegasTeddy wrote:

i question anyone's proffesional stature if they test hardness with a ball peen hammer and a punch on a known hardened die to begin with and write about it....15 years as an machinist speakin there

Chris is a metallurgist by trade, and a well-respected die variety expert. If it wouldn't glaze over our eyes, he would be thowing Rockwell hardness numbers around in the interview.

He used an electron microscope to test all the theories out there, not just the answer he arrived at. With an electron microscope you can make exact measurments and he proved that the arc impressed into each die is the same curvature. He also showed that the arcs could only have been punched into the die and that it happened after the die was hubbed and before it was hardened.

There is no real variety I can think of where an intentional mark was put on the die. 1890-CC Tail Bar is a die gouge, accidental I think. 1854-Huge O Quarter, maybe. 1870-S $3, with the S hand engraved into the die, maybe. John Reich's notched stars, maybe. 1804 Spiked chin 1/2 cent is thought to have been caused by a bolt getting struck in the coining press.

TwoSides2aCoin

Hey, at least they aren't illegal to own .

It was a deliberate attempt (in secret) to boost a fledgling SHQ program...and it worked to perfection.






~food for thought~

pharmer

<< <i>these were found in Az...I doubt they are purposely made.

>>



Manuel's example of an actual die gouge/dent is always useful when a believer of the "accidental" origin weighs in, as his image reminds them what a die gouge looks like. Gouges and dents do not look like the leaves.

One more time, this is what had to happen to be accidental: something very hard gouged the leaf shape into one die, survived that impact, and then jumped to another die and did it again, providentially doing it both times to make the gouge one with the design.

I believe! I'll expand on this once I finish calculating the number of angels that can fit on this here pinhead.

Hey, accidental believers: common sense, ya know? Just use some.

seanq

<< <i>
There is no real variety I can think of where an intentional mark was put on the die. >>



1944 Walking Liberty Half with an engraved AW monogram?


Sean Reynolds

Regulated

It goes on to say that he (Mr. Pilliod) thinks a tool was used and was hand punched. The article said Mr. Pilliod thinks the extra leaf low looked like it was punched by a right handed person and that the same tool was used at a different angle to make the extra leaf high.

I'm all for imaginative numismatic research, but this statement is just ridiculous. Right handed?!?

edited to fix an html blunder.

pitboss

I'm sure you can tell by the angle if he was right or left handed.

notlogical

I think the best way to say it is,

Please, Spock, do me a favor ... 'n' don't say it's `fascinating'..." -- Dr. McCoy
"No... but it is... interesting..." -- Mr. Spock
(The Ultimate Computer)

guitarwes

If you read in the new Vol. II Cherry pickers Guide, it will explain how these were thought to be made. It says they were made using a nut driver type tool, where the person(s) tilted the tool and either punched it or dug into it manually, as you can see that both high and low leaf go just about the same length and have the same degree of contour. Some dimes also had this similar marking through Roosevelt's ear on the OBV.

Check it out if you got the CPG, interresting!

CaptHenway

<< <i>

<< <i>
There is no real variety I can think of where an intentional mark was put on the die. >>



1944 Walking Liberty Half with an engraved AW monogram?


Sean Reynolds >>



Excellent suggestion. I had forgotten that one.

By the way, the notched stars on the dies engraved by John Reich were made from a star punch that had a small notch cut out of it. The other stars were made with a normal punch. The dies themselves were not marked or altered after the punching.

TD

EagleEye

The proof that these were not a "hub-through" is in the Low leaf die. It has a sunken area just below the lower arc. If it happened during the hubbing process, the field areas would not be able to raise up on the die (thus creating a sunken area on the coin). It is metal displacement from the arcs being punched into the die.

The proof that the arcs where punched into the die rests in the repeating notches in the tool that was used to punch the arcs on the low leaf. The high leaf is made from a different section of the tool so it doen't show these markings, but it is the same curvature.

The proof that the arcs were punched in between hubbing and hardening is the fact that after hardening it is impossible to make marks like these. However, prior to hardening it is possible with proper force.

The proof that these were intentionally done is, well, not provable unless someone admits to doing it. However, the fact that two dies had markings imparted on them from the same tool at the same time is strong enough for me.

By the way, the Denver Mint used single-die presses for the State Quarters in 2004, as they do now. They had five presses going at one time and the quarters from them were all funneled into the same hopper, so reports of same die rolls and bags are absurd.

EagleEye

ttt

I wanted to wait until Chris gave his interview before putting the info out.

Chris and I will be giving a Numismatic Theater presentation about the WI Extra leaf Quarters at the Milwaukee ANA. We are requesting Friday.

notlogical

<< <i>ttt

I wanted to wait until Chris gave his interview before putting the info out.

Chris and I will be giving a Numismatic Theater presentation about the WI Extra leaf Quarters at the Milwaukee ANA. We are requesting Friday. >>




I hope we can go! I better tell my parents.

19Lyds

From my simplistic photo merge and rotate, the arcs appear similar but not the same as the low leaf variety appears to have a decreasing arc out toward the right. It appears to straighten out.

I am not arguing that these were not intentional, I'm just stating that they do not appear to have been made with the same tool held at a different angle.

pitboss

We will all be waiting for some big news on Friday.

EagleEye

We will all be waiting for some big news on Friday.

Sorry, I didn't make it clear, The Friday of the show ---- In August.

We have overlays done from the SEM which are exact, these will be in the article.

fcloud

The Wisconsin coin is so ugly they had to do something to make people look at it!

My vote is someone did it on purpose. Why? Who knows--maybe just because they could.

HIGHLOWLEAVES

The Entire Numismatic World owe Rick and Chris a great deal of gratitude to have stayed the course and after many months they have determined the " Truth " surrounding the origin of the Famous Wisconsin Extra High and Low Leaf State Quarters. Their determination to see this mystery finally solved is amazing.... just like the coins themselves !! I wish that Bob Ford could have lived long enough to see the findings !! We need to keep the Ford Family in our prayers. Many , Many thanks to Rick and Chris !!! These Quarters are becoming a wonder of their own !! Sincerely, Mark Smith.

Amigo

ttt

pharmer

Rick, congrats to you and Chris. What are your thoughts about CONECA's stance on these? I thought they had gone with Ken Potter and Mike Diamond's opinions about being accidental die gouges, although I may be incorrect.

pitboss

OK Thanks Rick. I guess we are all just awaiting the good word .

mysterycoinman

Well ... it's about time someone pointed out that die gouges, dent or scratches do change in shape and form
and on possible different dies stages during it's useful intended life.

mysterycoinman

Oh, by the way Rick S...
I just wanted to thank Chris and yourself for all your "extra" hard earned time spent on your research ... you points and facts lead to very conclusive evidence that something
more had occured here then most collectors do suspect.

PS- By the way fcloud... your dime photo looks as nice as your car! now lets all see which ugly state coin you come from?

ModernDollarNut

There is no real variety I can think of where an intentional mark was put on the die. 1890-CC Tail Bar is a die gouge, accidental I think. 1854-Huge O Quarter, maybe. 1870-S $3, with the S hand engraved into the die, maybe. John Reich's notched stars, maybe. 1804 Spiked chin 1/2 cent is thought to have been caused by a bolt getting struck in the coining press. >>



It's possible Frank Gasparro fiddled with Ike Master Dies - the rumors are prevelant, rich with mischief, and one piece of evidence may be the radical Peg Leg one occasionally sees on the 1976-D TYPE 1 (the normal Peg Leg is forshortened and fades into the field: rumor has it this interesting Ike has been named the "Off at the Knees" Peg Leg and that it will be mentioned in an up-comming article in the ANA JOURNAL on Die Clash Ikes. Rob

Gandyjai

<< Anyone know if there was ever an incident in the past where someone at the Mint messed with a die?>>

Frankly, (pardon the pun)...."Frank's Pranks" with the Eisenhower Dollar series leave many examples to be considered
as legit "varieties". His alterations of the dies could include not only the 76-D Type 1 Peg Leg....but the others as
well. Also "up in the air" are the three "Filed Off E's"....(JMHO).

Brian

I LOVE TALON HEAD, PEG LEG & IKE ERRORS!

EagleEye

What are your thoughts about CONECA's stance on these? I thought they had gone with Ken Potter and Mike Diamond's opinions about being accidental die gouges, although I may be incorrect.

Regarding the disbelievers:

Mike, I believe, was just being a diligent skeptic, Very healthy for a variety/error guy.

Ken, I believe, was probably trying to protect the public from what he thought was too much media attention. I truly doubt he intended to slam these for any personal reason. I do think he spoke too soon, before actually studying the WI Quarters. I have never spoken with him, so I don't know his true reasoning. If after all this time, he still believes these are not worth collecting, then I guess he better stick to his day job.

As for CONECA, I am one of the attributors, but I really don't know if they have an official stance. If personal opinions get in the way of facts, they have a lot of problems. I don't think that is the case.

My only gripe and deep-seated disgust is for Arnie Margolis, who took on a personal vengeful anti-"Extra-leaf" Quarter campaign in his ERROR trends magazine which said in effect that the WI extra leafs were worthless, and that those promoting them knew nothing about die varieties. I submitted a polite, but pointed rebuttal and he refused to print it, saying the reason was that I was not a subscriber.

FredWeinberg

Rick, don't forget that I was just
as upset and frustrated with Arnie's
attitude also, and that I berated him
about it, he stood his ground, but then
I wrote a much more positive short
article in my monthly column, in rebuttal
to his prior comments.

EagleEye

Yes, That's correct and you proved to all what a Gentleman you are by doing so.