<< <i>As far as the "backdoor" theory, this is SOLELY propogated by jealous individuals who have absolutely zero evidence to substantiate their dramatic claims. I believe that certain star cards were produced in relative abundance (325-350) and some cards (Butler, Destrade, etc.) are in FAR less number than 241. I believe the print run averaged to 241 cards each, with dramatic fluctuations. Everyone loves a good conspiracy, but this is one conspiracy that is perpetuated by people who have a genuine desire to hurt sales in these cards and -- ultimately -- my profits. Fortunately for me, these individuals have been grossly and blatantly unsuccessful in their attempts. >>
The below post was made by our own JMB just last year regarding 1993 finest refractors.
Bipolar? Paranoid? Delusional? Narcissistic? Or just plain crazy?!?
You decide.
And if anyone ever wants to find information on 1993 Finest refractors, I suggest you use the message board's search feature. You'll find A LOT of people who know the real deal on the set and spoke the truth on it. These would be the "jealous" people JMB is referring to.
jmbkb4 Collector
Posts: 1192 Joined: Jun 2005
Sunday January 15, 2006 2:12 PM
DBH is, in this case, exactly right. I got into the game only about 6M ago, and didn't know the history and, as such, was skeptical [incorrectly] of DBH. I've been able to buy a tremendous amount of raw cards from various eBay sellers, and they've graded really high. I'm currently averaging about 33% PSA 10's on my submissions from PSA for these cards. Check out submission #585005, zip 65203 for proof.
There is without questions something fishy going on in Southern CA in terms of several eBay sellers -- specifically: bbcardco (who has dgsgraded shill, among many others), wcsports (who has lakertoughguy shill, among possibly others), and gourstar (who I believe has found the "backdoor" for the cards and is in my opinion supplying the previous 2 sellers).
bbcardco has sold more refractors than wcsports1, so there is a much longer paper trail for bbcardco. Phil Gold recently provided me with what I feel is proof positive that bbcardco has been shilling up a storm on his 1993 refractors in PSA 9/10 grade. There are approximately 15 bidders who have won like 0-5% of bbcardco's auctions, have placed around 100 bids, and have placed 100% of their bids with bbcardco's 1993 refractor auctions.
I think the strongest piece of evidence involving the counterfeiting of these cards (gosteelers on here has the copyright information) is that the same 172 cards keep being listed on eBay. It may be because (phil_gold can help here) these cards are being counterfeited by the sheet and the "missing" 17 cards never sold (Shane Mack, Pat Borders, Pat Henke, Orestes Destrade, Bernie Williams, Chad Curtis, etc.) because they are at corners/edges of pringing sheets. Just my theory on this one.
In any case, there is unquestionably something very fishy going on.
I knew DBH was *obsessed* with my posts/postings, but to literally archive my responses!!!
You made my night!!!
DBH, your obsession with me and my posts is nothing short of truly both terrifying and flattering. ((Did you read on those other message boards that Elvis was seen making out with Anna Nicole Smith last Friday???))
If nothing I say is worthwhile, then let's keep it that way. I had my "opinions" on the set 16 months ago, but I no longer hold those views.
DBH, thank you for keeping me at the 'top of your list.'
<< <i>jmbk, If you look at your post from an objective point of view, you come off no better than jgarci. Clearly you're biased and I have no doubt you've been able to make a lot of money off 93 refractors, but if you want people to believe what you say, you can't use language such as "this is SOLELY propogated by jealous individuals who have absolutely zero evidence to substantiate their dramatic claims." You sound like a defense lawyer, and worse- you presented no evidence to the contrary other than your beliefs.
The fluctuations on the individual cards have been unprecedented over the last 10 years, and anybody who has made this set their "specialty" has done well because they know what the market demands. I've loved this set since its release, but sold off my '93 refractor collection in 1995-96 while I could get $1k for Maddux and Piazza and $600 for McGwire. Granted I sold off a lot of semis and commons for a lot less than I would have had I kept them, but I did ok considering what I had in them.
Much like in other sets, the PSA Registry has thrown prices out of whack on this set, and knowledgable people like you have been able to capitalize on it. To be honest, I'm a little jealous because I had a passion for this set at one time but wasn't able to see it through to this point. I bought about 1/3 of the set at half book in '94 (the only point the set was stone-cold) and was able to sell a few years later for a nice profit. If I had kept with it, who knows.
I do know that the Piazza card was printed on its own sheet, and far more than any other card in the set. I also know that a handful of sets were backdoored (as told to me by a dealer breaking a complete set at the '95 National who showed me the box labeled "Topps Vault" that they came in). As far as I can tell, the print run can't be much more than 250-300 (non Piazza)based on the amount of cards that are out there.
To go back to the original question, for short-term flippers, this set has been a gold mine if they know what they're doing. As for long term, who knows. I think it will always remain valuable, but individual cards will certainly cool off a ton after the set registry dies down (which is inevitable). Just like "low pop" 1978 Topps commons, cards like the 93 Shane Mack refractor will not command huge premiums in any grade.
And jmbk, just so you know- I'm not knocking your knowledge or ability to turn a profit on what you know best. People laughed at me for 4 years when I told them I played poker for a living until it became the next big thing on TV, and then they all wanted me to teach them the game. All I'm saying is try not to come off like a TV evangelist when talking about whatever it is you have a passion for. People are much less likely to believe what you say.
Lee >>
Lee/cdsnuts,
I think your response is a fair one. I respect your views. In short, I would agree with you: it is impossible to know what will be a great investment in 10-20-100 years. I do not know. Certainly it would be impossible to make a fortune on silly baseball cards from any generation.
But -- I was pinned down by cohorp regarding my comment that 1993 Refractors for ME have been an extraordinarily wise investment. Being able to make $4-5K extra profit per month (on average) has been very nice over the last 20 months or so. Not enough to retire on (ha!), but that's OK. We have the M.D. and a trust fund for that...
I don't know why people take such great pleasure in knocking this set with such passion. It is a fun set to collect, which initially drew me to it as a collector.
Any investment, any commodity in the world should be approached from the standpoint of, "Do I know this product/real estate/fund/stock/etc. well enough to outthink others on it and -- therefore -- make some $$$?" This is not unique to the 1993 Refractors; rather, it is an inescapable part of being an intelligent investor.
I appreciate your comments and and the time you took to reply.
I knew DBH was *obsessed* with my posts/postings, but to literally archive my responses!!!
You made my night!!!
DBH, your obsession with me and my posts is nothing short of truly both terrifying and flattering. ((Did you read on those other message boards that Elvis was seen making out with Anna Nicole Smith last Friday???))
If nothing I say is worthwhile, then let's keep it that way. I had my "opinions" on the set 16 months ago, but I no longer hold those views.
DBH, thank you for keeping me at the 'top of your list.' >>
You are as dumb as you appear.
The fact you make BS claims and are called on it with your own words might seem impossible to you, but I know and the rest of the the board that's been around for more than a year or two knows you're full of it. Proving you're full of it is not too hard when one just searches "1993 Finest refractors" using the search option for the forum.
But I guess in your demented little world, that would be "archiving" a post and "keeping you at the top of a list."
Great, this looks like it's quickly becoming another jmbk vs. DBH thread about 93 refractors. I guess we're due for one of those every 6 months or so.
As for the 93 refractors set, I can see why jmbk could become so attached to it based on the money he's made and the fun he's had collecting it. I've had the same type of attachment to other sets here and there, and can certainly see how someone could be obsessed to the point where they will defend it to the death. Hell, I felt this way about 1995 Select Artists Proofs and still like the set (not as an investment). My advice would be to just let people knock it and laugh it off. You like the set, you like the money you've made off it; that should be enough for you. Most people won't believe you when you tell them the money you've made and the inventory you have right now anyway. No need to prove it to them and make them "realize". Hell, it took 4 years for my family to believe that I was making money "gambling"- and this is after I bought a car and put a down payment down on a house. Imagine what strangers thought when I told them I played cards for a living (this is before it was on TV). It got to the point where I got tired of explaining it to people so I just told them I was starting a dotcom. jmbk, just keep doing what you do and don't let what people think of your niche get to you. And certainly don't come off as preachy about the set, because then people will not only not believe you, they will start to think the opposite. A lot of people on these boards can't tell you the difference between 93 Finest Refractors and 96 Bowman's Best refractors (they're both shiny), so if they don't want to learn, screw em.
Anytime I see a "those cards are crap" post, I find it funny because we all collect whatever we collect. For some of us to think we're better than others because of what we like, or what we think is a good investment is completely ridiculous. Even if bobsbbcards honestly believes that Dinosaurs Attack cards are a great investment (which I'm pretty sure he doesn't, not that there's anything wrong with that), who has the right to tell him they aren't? We all have attachments to a certain niche of cards (which is why we're here).
<< <i>19th Century and pre War- especially T3's, Cracker Jacks, higher grade T200's, and most caramel cards. Nothing from the '70's on, and most '60's will underperform as compared to pre war- especially pre WW1 >>
hi Anthony my concern with caramels is bleaching. can you imagine what one might be able to do with paper stock after another 20 years?!? i think the best investment today belongs to the guy with the 60s cello wrap.
<< <i>1964 VENEZUELA TOPPS #125 PETE ROSE 1966 VENEZUELA TOPPS #030 PETE ROSE 1967 VENEZUELA TOPPS #270 PETE ROSE 1968 VENEZUELA TOPPS #230 PETE ROSE
Any grade!
P.S. Also all Mantle Venezuela Topps!
rd >>
yeah just as good as cubans. the way chavez is running things it may be illegal at some point to buy or sell anything venezuelan. there isnt much of a market for cubans or north korean items these days...
Jmbkb4- all I can say is I envy you if you can make 4-5K a month off the 93 Finest refractors. I wouldn't let anything anyone says on the board discourage me. I'd be happy to make $200 extra a month doing something I love doing. ANY hints/advice are appreciated!
<< <i>Great, this looks like it's quickly becoming another jmbk vs. DBH thread about 93 refractors. I guess we're due for one of those every 6 months or so.
Lee >>
Lee, great post. I know you're right -- I should not let gnats like DBH/cohorp and their envious tirades annoy me.
One of my favorite movie lines: "Jealous is the most pathetic emotion."
<< <i>Great, this looks like it's quickly becoming another jmbk vs. DBH thread about 93 refractors. I guess we're due for one of those every 6 months or so.
Lee >>
Lee, great post. I know you're right -- I should not let gnats like DBH/cohorp and their envious tirades annoy me.
One of my favorite movie lines: "Jealous is the most pathetic emotion." >>
The thread was going fine until you had another one of your breaks from reality, shouting "THEY ARE ALL JEALOUS OF ME! JEALOUS I SAY, OUT TO HURT MY SALES BUT FAILING MISERABLY LOLZ!!!" for no good reason.
Anyway, back to my playboy lifestyle of jetsetting around the world, driving my 20 Lamborghinis and bedding Playmates and lighting my cuban cigars with T206 Wagners. Please don't hate on me, jealous forum members of PSA!
<< <i>hmm. i wonder - would a doctor's scalpel be a good tool for trimming cards? makes me think.
jmb-- you mention that you submitted alot. out of curiousity, do many comes back too small or evid of trim?
btw- are you happy with your decision to come after me in my post the other day regarding 1954? that was worth it?
i'll be chatting with you there sport. >>
Would a doctor's scalpel work well? I honestly do not know -- they are sharp though.
Was 'it' worth it? I don't know, but perhaps I should answer your own question, as you've made an ass out of yourself on here and showed yourself to be a petty, jealous, infantile personality.
from what i heard, the undersized 1993 refractors are the ones which were backdoored-and there are alot of them-. i would just stay away from people who have them or have dealt with them. in my mind backdoored is stolen so they are dealing in stolen property to me. i would certainly conclude that their inventory is "tainted" whether graded or not. they probably just keep resubmitting until they get slabbed. there are some real nice threads regarding 1993 refractors if anyone wants the truth behind the issue.
i dont care how much money is in it to be made, i wont deal in items with questionable origins. you cant buy integrity.
on the other hand, your in business if they add 1993 finest refractor MINIS to the registry!
<< <i>from what i heard, the undersized 1993 refractors are the ones which were backdoored-and there are alot of them-. i would just stay away from people who have them or have dealt with them. in my mind backdoored is stolen so they are dealing in stolen property to me. i would certainly conclude that their inventory is "tainted" whether graded or not. they probably just keep resubmitting until they get slabbed. there are some real nice threads regarding 1993 refractors if anyone wants the truth behind the issue.
i dont care how much money is in it to be made, i wont deal in items with questionable origins. you cant buy integrity.
on the other hand, your in business if they add 1993 finest refractor MINIS to the registry! >>
Ouch. Debating you is like kicking a three-legged dog. It's just not right and, while winning is guaranteed, it just makes me look like a bully.
coho, with all due respect, if what you say is true, you aren't interested in owning any of the major cards from Topps or Upper Deck from about 1989-1997 (including Griffey's RC which there were littlerally hundreds of thousands unloaded onto the market after 1989). You also don't want any of the big Star basketball rookies from the mid 80s or any of the 1991 Topps Desert Shield cards which were backdoored by thieving employees by the box, and counterfeited as well. You also don't want many of the major Shaq rookies. You also don't want many of the sheet-cut cards that have made it past the graders into PSA 10 slabs, and especially BGS 9.5-10 slabs.
As long as there's money involved, people will do dishonest things to get it. That shouldn't detract from the original product that was stolen and/or counterfeited because so many collectors wanted those cards.
But an excellent post. I honestly don't know the history of the 1993 Refractors and I genuinely don't care. All I know is that PSA is happy to grade the cards I send them and my customers are VERY happy ones. Many buy from me raw on eBay and send in to BGS for huge profits.
lee, as always, very well stated. i agree with your last post completely. i will not put inventory money into the products which ended up being available on the secondary market in (made to order 800 ct boxes) of any given player such as the griffey rc. of course the '93 refractors werent that readily available but they were available non-the-less just like JMB noted earlier. his own words regarding 1993 refractors- "i've been able to buy TREMENDOUS amounts of raw cards from various ebay sellers". he also admits "in any case, there is unquestionably something very fishy going on". so jMB can bs and deny it now all he wants but the people who have been around awhile know the real scoop. he is simply a sellout. i am sorry, i do not have a price, i cannot be bought. i had the opportunity to buy the same before him and wanted nothing to do with it. this is certainly a (hot potato) issue and i absolutely would not suggest it to a new collector which was the original concept of this thread. this is very unhealthy for the overall market.
-i didnt proof read this response either so go ahead and critique it JMB.
<< <i>lee, as always, very well stated. i agree with your last post completely. i will not put inventory money into the products which ended up being available on the secondary market in (made to order 800 ct boxes) of any given player such as the griffey rc. of course the '93 refractors werent that readily available but they were available non-the-less just like JMB noted earlier. his own words regarding 1993 refractors- "i've been able to buy TREMENDOUS amounts of raw cards from various ebay sellers". he also admits "in any case, there is unquestionably something very fishy going on". so jMB can bs and deny it now all he wants but the people who have been around awhile know the real scoop. he is simply a sellout. i am sorry, i do not have a price, i cannot be bought. i had the opportunity to buy the same before him and wanted nothing to do with it. this is certainly a (hot potato) issue and i absolutely would not suggest it to a new collector which was the original concept of this thread. this is very unhealthy for the overall market.
-i didnt proof read this response either so go ahead and critique it JMB. >>
Thanks for taking the time to make YOUR signature, your identity, about me.
many cards have blown away Mantle as an investment. but, certainly not a bad choice. Just to name a few....Cobb T205, Johnson T205, Young T205, most of the HOF T206 portraits, and virtually nothing has outperformed 1949 Leaf Paige. There are many other cards that have far exceeded Mantle's ROI and I would suspect many of them are modern cards.
Mark B.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
JMB- pleading ignorance is no excuse for dealing in stolen merchadise. there are alot more important things in life than the almighty $. your character is terrible. you have been caught lying on multiple occasions in the thread entitled (More bad news on 1993 Finest Refractors? Now they're being trimmed?? ), so i certainly cannot believe a word out of your mouth. its pathetic how you sell all your ungradable refractors raw on ebay, then leave retalitory negative feedback to the buyer you scammed. i remember when the 1993 finest was released and actually broke a number of cases so i know what should be out there. with all the refractors out there now, you would think they were inserted into every pack. they werent. you said that you submitted a block of 85 refractors on 12/20/2006 alone. thats just one of your submissions. how many have you submitted overall, thousands? then you complain about the wc seller who has more refractors then you. awww, are you mad because someone has access to a bigger backdoored load than you? i saw the list of rejects you had. you should at least disclose to your buyers on ebay that alot of your refractors were resubmitted numberous times until graded. its no surprise at all that the raw ones you sell are too small. i dont care if some make it into holders eventually. with how much the grading companies are bombarded with submissions, naturally some are going to squeeze through. screwing people over is not ok. your victims may not realize it for awhile, but sooner or later they will. this is one reason so many people drop out of the industry.
Comments
<< <i>As far as the "backdoor" theory, this is SOLELY propogated by jealous individuals who have absolutely zero evidence to substantiate their dramatic claims. I believe that certain star cards were produced in relative abundance (325-350) and some cards (Butler, Destrade, etc.) are in FAR less number than 241. I believe the print run averaged to 241 cards each, with dramatic fluctuations. Everyone loves a good conspiracy, but this is one conspiracy that is perpetuated by people who have a genuine desire to hurt sales in these cards and -- ultimately -- my profits. Fortunately for me, these individuals have been grossly and blatantly unsuccessful in their attempts. >>
The below post was made by our own JMB just last year regarding 1993 finest refractors.
Bipolar? Paranoid? Delusional? Narcissistic? Or just plain crazy?!?
You decide.
And if anyone ever wants to find information on 1993 Finest refractors, I suggest you use the message board's search feature. You'll find A LOT of people who know the real deal on the set and spoke the truth on it. These would be the "jealous" people JMB is referring to.
jmbkb4
Collector
Posts: 1192
Joined: Jun 2005
Sunday January 15, 2006 2:12 PM
DBH is, in this case, exactly right. I got into the game only about 6M ago, and didn't know the history and, as such, was skeptical [incorrectly] of DBH. I've been able to buy a tremendous amount of raw cards from various eBay sellers, and they've graded really high. I'm currently averaging about 33% PSA 10's on my submissions from PSA for these cards. Check out submission #585005, zip 65203 for proof.
There is without questions something fishy going on in Southern CA in terms of several eBay sellers -- specifically: bbcardco (who has dgsgraded shill, among many others), wcsports (who has lakertoughguy shill, among possibly others), and gourstar (who I believe has found the "backdoor" for the cards and is in my opinion supplying the previous 2 sellers).
bbcardco has sold more refractors than wcsports1, so there is a much longer paper trail for bbcardco. Phil Gold recently provided me with what I feel is proof positive that bbcardco has been shilling up a storm on his 1993 refractors in PSA 9/10 grade. There are approximately 15 bidders who have won like 0-5% of bbcardco's auctions, have placed around 100 bids, and have placed 100% of their bids with bbcardco's 1993 refractor auctions.
I think the strongest piece of evidence involving the counterfeiting of these cards (gosteelers on here has the copyright information) is that the same 172 cards keep being listed on eBay. It may be because (phil_gold can help here) these cards are being counterfeited by the sheet and the "missing" 17 cards never sold (Shane Mack, Pat Borders, Pat Henke, Orestes Destrade, Bernie Williams, Chad Curtis, etc.) because they are at corners/edges of pringing sheets. Just my theory on this one.
In any case, there is unquestionably something very fishy going on.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
that is very very interesting there DBH!
words from his own mouth. gotcha sport.
I knew DBH was *obsessed* with my posts/postings, but to literally archive my responses!!!
You made my night!!!
DBH, your obsession with me and my posts is nothing short of truly both terrifying and flattering. ((Did you read on those other message boards that Elvis was seen making out with Anna Nicole Smith last Friday???))
If nothing I say is worthwhile, then let's keep it that way. I had my "opinions" on the set 16 months ago, but I no longer hold those views.
DBH, thank you for keeping me at the 'top of your list.'
<< <i>jmbk,
If you look at your post from an objective point of view, you come off no better than jgarci. Clearly you're biased and I have no doubt you've been able to make a lot of money off 93 refractors, but if you want people to believe what you say, you can't use language such as "this is SOLELY propogated by jealous individuals who have absolutely zero evidence to substantiate their dramatic claims." You sound like a defense lawyer, and worse- you presented no evidence to the contrary other than your beliefs.
The fluctuations on the individual cards have been unprecedented over the last 10 years, and anybody who has made this set their "specialty" has done well because they know what the market demands. I've loved this set since its release, but sold off my '93 refractor collection in 1995-96 while I could get $1k for Maddux and Piazza and $600 for McGwire. Granted I sold off a lot of semis and commons for a lot less than I would have had I kept them, but I did ok considering what I had in them.
Much like in other sets, the PSA Registry has thrown prices out of whack on this set, and knowledgable people like you have been able to capitalize on it. To be honest, I'm a little jealous because I had a passion for this set at one time but wasn't able to see it through to this point. I bought about 1/3 of the set at half book in '94 (the only point the set was stone-cold) and was able to sell a few years later for a nice profit. If I had kept with it, who knows.
I do know that the Piazza card was printed on its own sheet, and far more than any other card in the set. I also know that a handful of sets were backdoored (as told to me by a dealer breaking a complete set at the '95 National who showed me the box labeled "Topps Vault" that they came in). As far as I can tell, the print run can't be much more than 250-300 (non Piazza)based on the amount of cards that are out there.
To go back to the original question, for short-term flippers, this set has been a gold mine if they know what they're doing. As for long term, who knows. I think it will always remain valuable, but individual cards will certainly cool off a ton after the set registry dies down (which is inevitable). Just like "low pop" 1978 Topps commons, cards like the 93 Shane Mack refractor will not command huge premiums in any grade.
And jmbk, just so you know- I'm not knocking your knowledge or ability to turn a profit on what you know best. People laughed at me for 4 years when I told them I played poker for a living until it became the next big thing on TV, and then they all wanted me to teach them the game. All I'm saying is try not to come off like a TV evangelist when talking about whatever it is you have a passion for. People are much less likely to believe what you say.
Lee >>
Lee/cdsnuts,
I think your response is a fair one. I respect your views. In short, I would agree with you: it is impossible to know what will be a great investment in 10-20-100 years. I do not know. Certainly it would be impossible to make a fortune on silly baseball cards from any generation.
But -- I was pinned down by cohorp regarding my comment that 1993 Refractors for ME have been an extraordinarily wise investment. Being able to make $4-5K extra profit per month (on average) has been very nice over the last 20 months or so. Not enough to retire on (ha!), but that's OK. We have the M.D. and a trust fund for that...
I don't know why people take such great pleasure in knocking this set with such passion. It is a fun set to collect, which initially drew me to it as a collector.
Any investment, any commodity in the world should be approached from the standpoint of, "Do I know this product/real estate/fund/stock/etc. well enough to outthink others on it and -- therefore -- make some $$$?" This is not unique to the 1993 Refractors; rather, it is an inescapable part of being an intelligent investor.
I appreciate your comments and and the time you took to reply.
<< <i>Holy cow!!!
I knew DBH was *obsessed* with my posts/postings, but to literally archive my responses!!!
You made my night!!!
DBH, your obsession with me and my posts is nothing short of truly both terrifying and flattering. ((Did you read on those other message boards that Elvis was seen making out with Anna Nicole Smith last Friday???))
If nothing I say is worthwhile, then let's keep it that way. I had my "opinions" on the set 16 months ago, but I no longer hold those views.
DBH, thank you for keeping me at the 'top of your list.' >>
You are as dumb as you appear.
The fact you make BS claims and are called on it with your own words might seem impossible to you, but I know and the rest of the the board that's been around for more than a year or two knows you're full of it. Proving you're full of it is not too hard when one just searches "1993 Finest refractors" using the search option for the forum.
But I guess in your demented little world, that would be "archiving" a post and "keeping you at the top of a list."
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
1964 VENEZUELA TOPPS #125 PETE ROSE
1966 VENEZUELA TOPPS #030 PETE ROSE
1967 VENEZUELA TOPPS #270 PETE ROSE
1968 VENEZUELA TOPPS #230 PETE ROSE
Any grade!
P.S. Also all Mantle Venezuela Topps!
rd
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
As for the 93 refractors set, I can see why jmbk could become so attached to it based on the money he's made and the fun he's had collecting it. I've had the same type of attachment to other sets here and there, and can certainly see how someone could be obsessed to the point where they will defend it to the death. Hell, I felt this way about 1995 Select Artists Proofs and still like the set (not as an investment). My advice would be to just let people knock it and laugh it off. You like the set, you like the money you've made off it; that should be enough for you. Most people won't believe you when you tell them the money you've made and the inventory you have right now anyway. No need to prove it to them and make them "realize". Hell, it took 4 years for my family to believe that I was making money "gambling"- and this is after I bought a car and put a down payment down on a house. Imagine what strangers thought when I told them I played cards for a living (this is before it was on TV). It got to the point where I got tired of explaining it to people so I just told them I was starting a dotcom. jmbk, just keep doing what you do and don't let what people think of your niche get to you. And certainly don't come off as preachy about the set, because then people will not only not believe you, they will start to think the opposite. A lot of people on these boards can't tell you the difference between 93 Finest Refractors and 96 Bowman's Best refractors (they're both shiny), so if they don't want to learn, screw em.
Anytime I see a "those cards are crap" post, I find it funny because we all collect whatever we collect. For some of us to think we're better than others because of what we like, or what we think is a good investment is completely ridiculous. Even if bobsbbcards honestly believes that Dinosaurs Attack cards are a great investment (which I'm pretty sure he doesn't, not that there's anything wrong with that), who has the right to tell him they aren't? We all have attachments to a certain niche of cards (which is why we're here).
Lee
<< <i>19th Century and pre War- especially T3's, Cracker Jacks, higher grade T200's, and most caramel cards.
Nothing from the '70's on, and most '60's will underperform as compared to pre war- especially pre WW1 >>
hi Anthony
my concern with caramels is bleaching.
can you imagine what one might be able to do
with paper stock after another 20 years?!?
i think the best investment today belongs to
the guy with the 60s cello wrap.
<< <i>1964 VENEZUELA TOPPS #125 PETE ROSE
1966 VENEZUELA TOPPS #030 PETE ROSE
1967 VENEZUELA TOPPS #270 PETE ROSE
1968 VENEZUELA TOPPS #230 PETE ROSE
Any grade!
P.S. Also all Mantle Venezuela Topps!
rd >>
yeah just as good as cubans. the way chavez is running things
it may be illegal at some point to buy or sell anything venezuelan.
there isnt much of a market for cubans or north korean items these days...
that says alot. i am sure you will say that you are an md.
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
<< <i>Great, this looks like it's quickly becoming another jmbk vs. DBH thread about 93 refractors. I guess we're due for one of those every 6 months or so.
Lee >>
Lee, great post. I know you're right -- I should not let gnats like DBH/cohorp and their envious tirades annoy me.
One of my favorite movie lines: "Jealous is the most pathetic emotion."
<< <i>SGC graded cards >>
This thread is about Best Investments, not best way to lose money on graded cards. Unless you meant to buy SGC and then crack and resubmit...
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
jmb-- you mention that you submitted alot. out of curiousity, do many comes back too small or evid of trim?
btw- are you happy with your decision to come after me in my post the other day regarding 1954? that was worth it?
i'll be chatting with you there sport.
<< <i>
<< <i>Great, this looks like it's quickly becoming another jmbk vs. DBH thread about 93 refractors. I guess we're due for one of those every 6 months or so.
Lee >>
Lee, great post. I know you're right -- I should not let gnats like DBH/cohorp and their envious tirades annoy me.
One of my favorite movie lines: "Jealous is the most pathetic emotion." >>
The thread was going fine until you had another one of your breaks from reality, shouting "THEY ARE ALL JEALOUS OF ME! JEALOUS I SAY, OUT TO HURT MY SALES BUT FAILING MISERABLY LOLZ!!!" for no good reason.
Anyway, back to my playboy lifestyle of jetsetting around the world, driving my 20 Lamborghinis and bedding Playmates and lighting my cuban cigars with T206 Wagners. Please don't hate on me, jealous forum members of PSA!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
julen
RIP GURU
<< <i>hmm. i wonder - would a doctor's scalpel be a good tool for trimming cards? makes me think.
jmb-- you mention that you submitted alot. out of curiousity, do many comes back too small or evid of trim?
btw- are you happy with your decision to come after me in my post the other day regarding 1954? that was worth it?
i'll be chatting with you there sport. >>
Would a doctor's scalpel work well? I honestly do not know -- they are sharp though.
Was 'it' worth it? I don't know, but perhaps I should answer your own question, as you've made an ass out of yourself on here and showed yourself to be a petty, jealous, infantile personality.
i dont care how much money is in it to be made, i wont deal in items with questionable origins. you cant buy integrity.
on the other hand, your in business if they add 1993 finest refractor MINIS to the registry!
<< <i>from what i heard, the undersized 1993 refractors are the ones which were backdoored-and there are alot of them-. i would just stay away from people who have them or have dealt with them. in my mind backdoored is stolen so they are dealing in stolen property to me. i would certainly conclude that their inventory is "tainted" whether graded or not. they probably just keep resubmitting until they get slabbed. there are some real nice threads regarding 1993 refractors if anyone wants the truth behind the issue.
i dont care how much money is in it to be made, i wont deal in items with questionable origins. you cant buy integrity.
on the other hand, your in business if they add 1993 finest refractor MINIS to the registry!
Ouch. Debating you is like kicking a three-legged dog. It's just not right and, while winning is guaranteed, it just makes me look like a bully.
As long as there's money involved, people will do dishonest things to get it. That shouldn't detract from the original product that was stolen and/or counterfeited because so many collectors wanted those cards.
Lee
you'll need to use shorter words/sentences.
But an excellent post. I honestly don't know the history of the 1993 Refractors and I genuinely don't care. All I know is that PSA is happy to grade the cards I send them and my customers are VERY happy ones. Many buy from me raw on eBay and send in to BGS for huge profits.
as always, very well stated. i agree with your last post completely. i will not put inventory money into the products which ended up being available on the secondary market in (made to order 800 ct boxes) of any given player such as the griffey rc. of course the '93 refractors werent that readily available but they were available non-the-less just like JMB noted earlier. his own words regarding 1993 refractors- "i've been able to buy TREMENDOUS amounts of raw cards from various ebay sellers". he also admits "in any case, there is unquestionably something very fishy going on". so jMB can bs and deny it now all he wants but the people who have been around awhile know the real scoop. he is simply a sellout. i am sorry, i do not have a price, i cannot be bought. i had the opportunity to buy the same before him and wanted nothing to do with it. this is certainly a (hot potato) issue and i absolutely would not suggest it to a new collector which was the original concept of this thread. this is very unhealthy for the overall market.
-i didnt proof read this response either so go ahead and critique it JMB.
mike- it looks as though there will always be strong demand on them. very solid.
<< <i>You've got to like all pre-war HOF'S. All the preWWI stuff, including commons!!!!! >>
san diego chicken cards ofcourse!
<< <i>lee,
as always, very well stated. i agree with your last post completely. i will not put inventory money into the products which ended up being available on the secondary market in (made to order 800 ct boxes) of any given player such as the griffey rc. of course the '93 refractors werent that readily available but they were available non-the-less just like JMB noted earlier. his own words regarding 1993 refractors- "i've been able to buy TREMENDOUS amounts of raw cards from various ebay sellers". he also admits "in any case, there is unquestionably something very fishy going on". so jMB can bs and deny it now all he wants but the people who have been around awhile know the real scoop. he is simply a sellout. i am sorry, i do not have a price, i cannot be bought. i had the opportunity to buy the same before him and wanted nothing to do with it. this is certainly a (hot potato) issue and i absolutely would not suggest it to a new collector which was the original concept of this thread. this is very unhealthy for the overall market.
-i didnt proof read this response either so go ahead and critique it JMB. >>
Thanks for taking the time to make YOUR signature, your identity, about me.
Wow.
'your' a great guy!!!
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set