Best Investment?
JLOW13
Posts: 45
Curious everyone's take on the best investments in cards right now?
Just a general poll to see what everyone is thinking.
20 years from now what will have the most value?
Just a general poll to see what everyone is thinking.
20 years from now what will have the most value?
0
Comments
Nothing from the '70's on, and most '60's will underperform as compared to pre war- especially pre WW1
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
PSA 8 (appearing to be SUPER high-end.)
You can either arbitrage the heck out of them yourself,
or sell them to someone else who understands the
"market-grading" wave.
But with respect to cards - what Griffins said.
With one possible exception - but most of us will not fall into that category.
Perhaps, extremely high end postwar cards - a complete PSA 8 52T set e.g. - PSA 10 52T Mantle or stuff in that category?
I still think collectibles are a crap shoot in general.
mike
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And, most only rise to even that level on their BEST day.
Buying stuff because you like it is good. Buying stuff because
you think you KNOW it is going up is a silly-person's errand.
I spend a lot on cards, and consider it a part of my net worth, but it's not the part I'm interested in "growing". It IS the part I'm interested in creating a spread between what I pay for cards and what I think I can get out of them graded, either now or in the future. That's what keeps the hobby challenging and fun for me.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
My friend has been collecting vintage comics for 20 years and you know what? Hes lucky he can get the same price he paid for them or half. Only thing that supports his hobby is Marvel fans and when a big Marvel movie (Spider-Man) comes out. The the whole phase comes into play and eBay has a new hot item search for the next few weeks. Remember Star Wars about 2 years ago? Big hype on eBay and lots of sales, now nothing and I don't think there will be any time soon because NO EVENT supports it mainly just hardcore fans.
Another example, my mom loves to collect vintage jewelry. She makes most of her $ on whats hot right now, not the real old stuff. Its all phases and styles but really no event to support it just whats in "style".
Every hobby has risks and downs and lows but I doubt Mantle or HOF players going down into any time pit soon. Card collecting has a foundation and its the event that supports it. When records or famous times are created its famous till the very end, even after a record is broken. Every year its a new season and new rookies who we watch on TV do what they do best play the game to their full potential (although A-rod I wonder sometimes). =P
What also makes cards today so high and going is machine stamped one out of whatever #.
<< <i>Buy high end stuff, pre-1970, eh, maybe pre-72.. You may not make a whole lot on it at the end of the day, but the chances are low that you'll get hurt on it.
I spend a lot on cards, and consider it a part of my net worth, but it's not the part I'm interested in "growing". It IS the part I'm interested in creating a spread between what I pay for cards and what I think I can get out of them graded, either now or in the future. That's what keeps the hobby challenging and fun for me.
Ron >>
The big 'x' factor in post-war cards is just how much Larry Frisch has stashed away in his warehouse. Also, there are still many, many ungraded collections and random shoeboxes out there, and many of those will yield high grade cards once they circulate in the hobby.
as for stocks, thats a tough animal. we are all minnows in a large ocean there. $1,000,000 in a prarticular stock doesnt do anything. that same amount spend on a particular card, for example the 52 topps mantle, would certainly affect the prices. if some one kept buying up all the psa 4s, they would have to go up simply because they are thinly traded compared to stocks. to me, stocks are much higher risk.
Unopened material.
It's the only thing that there's less of each year.
With Mantle cards and pre war baseball cards, the big run up of their prices has already occured.
So as an investment in them at this point,
you're basically depending on the 'bigger fool' theory in order for the prices to continue to rise.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>Unopened material.
It's the only thing that there's less of each year.
With Mantle cards and pre war baseball cards, the big run up of their prices has already occured.
So as an investment in them at this point,
you're basically depending on the 'bigger fool' theory in order for the prices to continue to rise. >>
Not saying your wrong but how do you know they have stopped increasing or will? You never really know when something is at its highest unless its a popular time or value has gone way way down. Over the last 10 years they have increased and some stayed the same (older Mantles for example).
Mantle cards would seem to be the safest bet in the hobby for holding their long-term value,
but an 'investment' requires appreciation. Unopened from the early 1970's and prior has unlimited growth potenial.
I don't collect vintage unopened, I've just seen what it's done over the last 8 years and it's pretty amazing.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
so thats out. what else you got?
Unopened would seem fine too.
Any pre-WW 2 high grade cards from any sport.
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
bobsbbcards SGC Registry Sets
I agree with pre-war golf. I'd also add pre-war boxing. I think both are very undervalued right now.
From the likely will not depreciate side:
Anything on the top 200 cards list pre 1970. People will always want those elite cards for their collection.
2004 Tommie Harris SPX Printing Plate (White Whale will pay top $$$)
1994 SP Football Die Cuts PSA 10s
<< <i>Curious everyone's take on the best investments in cards right now?
>>
opening an Auction House
Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen, Harry Vardon, Tom Morris and a few others like Francis Ouimet and Gene Sarazen are starting to fetch better prices outside the US Caramel, sport kings and various US issues.
While Ebay has had a couple of collectors liquidating some stuff recently, the overseas auction market has been very slow with this material being available, really for the first time I can remember in about five years.
Collector of Vintage Golf cards! Let me know what you might have.
<< <i>thats what i am thinking, pre war was the best investment, but it has to be near a peak now. >>
That is what we ALL thought a few years back, right Griffins????
I agree with pre war Golf, though I think Boxing could be more popular, and under valued
Arthur
That's what they said in the 80's, then in the 90's, then 2001, then 2 years ago.
It's no where near it's peak. Pre war is still the best investment. They can'r get busted
for steriods, have a bad year or get caught with hookers.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
64 Registered sets...25 of them have updated in the past 3 days...AMAZING...
90% of the cards are selling at multiples of SMR..
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Dinosaur Attack cards. You heard it here first.
<< <i>Curious everyone's take on the best investments in cards right now?
Just a general poll to see what everyone is thinking.
20 years from now what will have the most value? >>
Raw Shane Mack 1993 Refractors. Get 'em while they're hot at $561.
Lee
Lee
If you want a true investment, then buy real estate as it does not seem to be affected by world events.
<< <i>i am not real familiar on the 1993 refractors. what is their pricing history like? have they been a solid investment in the past few years??
I've made more $$$ on these cards than I thought possible over the last 1.5 years exclusively dealing with 1993 Refractors. Just sold my Butler 10 for a 'little bit.'
That's all fine and dandy, but I am having to pay quite a bit in taxes to Uncle Sam this year!!!! My CPA tells me -- if you make the money, you gotta pay taxes.
regarding the 1993 refractors, what is their pricing history like and have they been a solid investment in the past few years?? i remember they were worth a ton about 8 years ago. its just seemed pretty risky to me to deal in items which have been backdoored. thats all.
<< <i>93 McGwire Refractors...I heard someones trying to corner the market.....
A lot of good thoughts here. One I would like to add is high grade, psa 8-psa 10 pre-73 Football. Notice the low prices realized then take notice in about 2 more years.
<< <i>you evaded the 2 questions i posed so i will ask again;
regarding the 1993 refractors, what is their pricing history like and have they been a solid investment in the past few years?? i remember they were worth a ton about 8 years ago. its just seemed pretty risky to me to deal in items which have been backdoored. thats all. >>
OK, I may not be as sharp as you, so I will reanswer your question in the best way I know how. You stated I 'evaded' two questions. I have nothing to hide, just answered your challenging question, and think other individuals that have troubles maximizing profit on their sales may attack me for those obvious reasons.
In any case, let's try this again:
In MY experience, the pricing history of 1993 Refractors has been such that I have been able to buy these refractors and sell them on and off eBay for a substantial profit, often in terms of several hundreds (and sometimes in thousands) of a percent. This is largely due to the PSA Set Registry and focusing on tough and star cards. You have to know your niche when selling any set/card, even genre. Any set with as much attention as the 1993 Refractor set is bound to have price fluctuations. Remarkably, this set has been a solid investment for me and others.
I follow Frank Thomas cards extensively. A few years ago, they were selling in raw form for about $100 on eBay, sometimes less. This price has been amazingly consistent over the past two years in terms of my sales. I have sold several in the $80-100 range and several in the $130-150 range on eBay. Check out item #280077410231 for $147 on 2/7/2007, item #280070093709 for $140 on 1/12/2007, and item #280067545278 for $142 on 1/12/2007. My average price for a RAW, not well-centered Thomas has been probably $110-115 over the past year. It has been very, very consistent. I have sold Frank Thomas PSA 10s off eBay for $800 on three occasions over the past 3 years. PSA 9s have always been solid at $150 and have never really wavered.
As far as the "backdoor" theory, this is SOLELY propogated by jealous individuals who have absolutely zero evidence to substantiate their dramatic claims. I believe that certain star cards were produced in relative abundance (325-350) and some cards (Butler, Destrade, etc.) are in FAR less number than 241. I believe the print run averaged to 241 cards each, with dramatic fluctuations. Everyone loves a good conspiracy, but this is one conspiracy that is perpetuated by people who have a genuine desire to hurt sales in these cards and -- ultimately -- my profits. Fortunately for me, these individuals have been grossly and blatantly unsuccessful in their attempts.
If you need further elucidation, please advise.
If you look at your post from an objective point of view, you come off no better than jgarci. Clearly you're biased and I have no doubt you've been able to make a lot of money off 93 refractors, but if you want people to believe what you say, you can't use language such as "this is SOLELY propogated by jealous individuals who have absolutely zero evidence to substantiate their dramatic claims." You sound like a defense lawyer, and worse- you presented no evidence to the contrary other than your beliefs.
The fluctuations on the individual cards have been unprecedented over the last 10 years, and anybody who has made this set their "specialty" has done well because they know what the market demands. I've loved this set since its release, but sold off my '93 refractor collection in 1995-96 while I could get $1k for Maddux and Piazza and $600 for McGwire. Granted I sold off a lot of semis and commons for a lot less than I would have had I kept them, but I did ok considering what I had in them.
Much like in other sets, the PSA Registry has thrown prices out of whack on this set, and knowledgable people like you have been able to capitalize on it. To be honest, I'm a little jealous because I had a passion for this set at one time but wasn't able to see it through to this point. I bought about 1/3 of the set at half book in '94 (the only point the set was stone-cold) and was able to sell a few years later for a nice profit. If I had kept with it, who knows.
I do know that the Piazza card was printed on its own sheet, and far more than any other card in the set. I also know that a handful of sets were backdoored (as told to me by a dealer breaking a complete set at the '95 National who showed me the box labeled "Topps Vault" that they came in). As far as I can tell, the print run can't be much more than 250-300 (non Piazza)based on the amount of cards that are out there.
To go back to the original question, for short-term flippers, this set has been a gold mine if they know what they're doing. As for long term, who knows. I think it will always remain valuable, but individual cards will certainly cool off a ton after the set registry dies down (which is inevitable). Just like "low pop" 1978 Topps commons, cards like the 93 Shane Mack refractor will not command huge premiums in any grade.
And jmbk, just so you know- I'm not knocking your knowledge or ability to turn a profit on what you know best. People laughed at me for 4 years when I told them I played poker for a living until it became the next big thing on TV, and then they all wanted me to teach them the game. All I'm saying is try not to come off like a TV evangelist when talking about whatever it is you have a passion for. People are much less likely to believe what you say.
Lee
my questions still arent answered. i am guessing the vast majority of people who bought these, lost money on them. i believe they were going for obscene amounts about 8-10 years ago as i previously mentioned. but i am sure that a select few, like you sport, made money on them as of recent. from the impression i get, the vast majority (with some exceptions) are at about 20 percent peak value. this is a guess but i think its pretty close. i stayed away from them as soon as i saw quantity of them in person. there is alot more out there than you think.
now when a newbie (14 posts) asks for help/assistance, do you really think telling him to go after 1993 refractors is sound advice? i dont. now if you have an "in" on getting quantity of certain players and grading them, good for you. i am not saying you do. but i myself, want nothing to do with that scenerio. but soliciting new collectors is screwed up. keep in mind, i was in this industry when blocks came out so i am well aware of what went on. as for an average of 241 refractors being produced, no chance can you honestly buy that.
as for the jealousy comment, i dont think so. if i were jealous of you and wanted to impact you, i would simply compete with you and shut you out of that niche completely. but as it stands, i wont put my inventory purchases into items which have been backdoored. its as simple as that.
the prices on the (Butler, Destrade, etc.) may be where they are at today b/c there probably really was only 241 of those produced. by the way, 241 is alot compared to other modern cards just for the record.
in summary, although i am not doubting that you made $ on them, the overall history of the 1993 refractors sucks, plain and simple. the hype apparently wore out.
btw, any real reason you dont have a profile filled out there? must you stay anonymous?
pat
just for the record, i think the refractors are definately a nice looking card. i just dont like the history of them.