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Art Monk in the HOF?
ndleo
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I am listening to an interview with Ronnie Lott, he dropped that he already knew that Art Monk's HOF bust is already made.
Looks like Art made it.
Looks like Art made it.
Mike
0
Comments
But hey, stranger things have happened...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
So I will simply say that I hope Mr. Lott, who is a consumate professional and symbolizes everything that is great about the game (and thus knows rather better than some of the people who control this vote what a real HOFer is made of) is right. and leave it at that.
Joe
<< <i>He actually said that he knows that the bust is on order to be made. That could simply mean that the HOF thinks that Monk's chances are good and they need to get the order in to make it by the induction. >>
The actual induction isn't until August...lol
And my guess would be if they put in an order for Monk, they put one in for all the other possible electees...If there is any fact-based info in Lott's supposed statement, wouldn't it be more likely that the HOF is doing something it always does? Which is get the order in for any possibly HOFer?
Sorry, just doesnt make sense, that the HOF would have a guys bust made before the vote has even happened...Placed an order? Sure maybe for all the guys...But a bust produced for one specifc guy because they "think" he's going in? Doesn't sound right to me. Especially when they have 6 months + to get the bust made after the actual elections. Would be a huge waste of money because there are guys every year that everyone THINKS is going in, but somehow gets snubbed.
I'm not rooting against Monk at all, but I've got to think Lott either mixed up what he was trying to say, or whoever heard him missed a word or 2...
Do you have a link or some type of proff that Lott actually said this?What radio station were you listening too and what time of day? This could become a huge national story if it is true and Lott said this in a public forum.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>When do they announce the new group? I think Monk is a lock this year. This group doesn't have the dominant superstar names as last year. >>
A counter-argument, as I posted on another board:
OK, here's the case against Monk for those that think he's a no-brainer:
- played for 16 seasons, topping 900 yds receiving only six times
- had three seasons with less than 500 yds, four if you count strike-shortened 1987
- top 10 in receiving TDs only once (9th)
- never double-digits in TD
- only had one year averaging 15 yds per catch (15.9 in 1983)
- led the league in ANY receiving category just once (then-record 106 receptions in 1984)
- only 68 career receiving TDs
Me? I think he's in the Hall of Very Good, not the Hall of Fame. Compare Monk to his teammate Gary Clark - who had 7 900-yd seasons out of 11, and another of 892 yds, all while averaging 15.5 yds a catch for his CAREER, with 65 TD catches.
Tabe
The Count:
No: 5 (9 or more prevents induction)
Yes: 17 (32 or more guarantees induction)
Unknown/Maybe: 18
Support for Monk is indicated on a 0-10 scale:
0: Fighting Against Art Monk
1: Definitely No
2: Probably No
3: Likely No
4: Maybe No
5: Unknown
6: Maybe Yes
7: Likely Yes
8: Probably Yes
9: Definitely Yes
10: Fighting For Art Monk
Arizona: Kent Somers, Arizona Republic (5)
Atlanta: Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com (1)
Baltimore: Scott Garceau, WMAR-TV (9)
Buffalo: Mark Gaughan, Buffalo News (4)
Carolina: Charles Chandler, Charlotte Observer (9)
Chicago: Don Pierson, Chicago Tribune (7)
Cincinnati: Chick Ludwig, Dayton Daily News (9)
Cleveland: Tony Grossi, Cleveland Plain Dealer (4)
Dallas: Rick Gosselin, Dallas Morning News (3)
Denver: Jeff Legwold, Rocky Mountain News (5)
Detroit: Jerry Green, The Detroit News (5)
Green Bay: Cliff Christl, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (0)
Houston: John McClain, Houston Chronicle (8)
Indianapolis: Mike Chappell, Indianapolis Star (5)
Jacksonville: Sam Kouvaris, WJXT-TV (9)
Kansas City: Bob Gretz, KCFX Overland Park, KS (4)
Miami: Edwin Pope, Miami Herald (5)
Minnesota: Sid Hartman, The Minneapolis Star-Tribune (6)
New England: Ron Borges, Boston Globe (3)
New Orleans: Peter Finney, Times-Picayune (5)
New York (Giants): Vinny DiTrani, Bergen Record (5)
New York (Jets): Paul Zimmerman, Sports Illustrated (0)
Oakland: Frank Cooney, The Sports Xchange (8)
Philadelphia: Paul Domowitch, Philadelphia Daily News (4)
Pittsburgh: Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (6)
St. Louis: Bernie Miklasz, St. Louis Post-Dispatch (10)
San Diego: Jerry Magee, San Diego Union Tribune (6)
San Francisco: Ira Miller, San Francisco Chronicle (9)
Seattle: John Clayton, ESPN/ESPN Magazine (9)
Tampa Bay: Ira Kaufman, Tampa Tribune (8)
Tennessee: David Climer, The Tennessean (8)
Washington: David Elfin, Washington Times (10)
PFWA: Charean Williams, Ft. Worth Star Telegram (5)
At Large: Jarrett Bell, USA Today (7)
At Large: Dave Goldberg, Associated Press (5)
At Large: Peter King, Sports Illustrated (9)
At Large: Howard Balzer, Sports XChange (6)
At Large: Bob Oates, Los Angeles Times (7)
At Large: Len Shapiro, Washington Post (10)
At Large: Jim Trotter, San Diego Union-Tribune (6)
Only 4 of the unknown 18 need to say no for Monk to miss the boat. Thats basically on average since 5 of the 22 known votes are likely no's...Will be close.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hall of Fame Meeting
Cliff Christl
This year, we’ve been criticized mainly for not selecting Michael Irvin and Derrick Thomas. I believe both players belong in the Hall of Fame, but also realize that this was a strong group of finalists and it forced me and maybe some others to make some tough decisions in narrowing the field from 15 to 10 to six. That said, when Irvin reached the final six, it was simply a yes or no vote. I voted yes, but all it took was eight no votes out of 39 to deprive him of induction.
The other criticism I’ve heard is that Art Monk belongs in the Hall. Again, I understand where his supporters are coming from. He left the game as the all-time leading receiver, with three Super Bowl rings and having stood the test of time. I also believe he was as good as or better than some receivers already in the Hall: Charlie Joiner, Lynn Swann and Steve Largent, among them. But Joiner, Swann and Largent were all voted in before I got on the committee and I doubt if I would have voted for any of them.
On the flip side, Monk averaged only 13.5 yards per catch. He was tough across the middle, a superb blocker and and a selfless player, but he was never a big playmaker. That bothers me. He also was named to only three Pro Bowls in 16 years. I looked back at some old player rankings that reflected a consensus of scouts’ opinions from when Monk played. I didn’t have every year, but the highest Monk was ever rated was fourth. One year he was sixth. But there were years when he wasn’t rated in the top 12. There also were years when one of his fellow wide receivers on the Redskins was rated ahead of him, including Gary Clark. In essence, Monk was never really regarded as one of the top three, four receivers in the game. More often than not, he was ranked about 10th.
Is that good enough to get in the Hall, when you consider that he was a very good player for 15 years? Or should the Hall be open only to the very best: The players who rank among the top three, four at their positions over an extended period? That’s why Monk has been a tough call for me.
But they’re almost all tough. I’ve had several personnel people tell me that Roger Wehrli was one of the great cornerbacks of all time. Among the scouts that I’ve talked to, Wehrli draws more praise than Monk. Ron Wolf told me that if we studied game film, Wehrli would be a cinch to make it. Yet Wehrli didn’t get past the first vote.
How many talk radio hosts took up his cause? Probably very few, if any, because they don’t know anything about him. And that’s my point. How many of our critics know that most scouts never rated Monk among the top eight to 10 receivers in the game, except for maybe after two or three of his biggest seasons?
Sports Illustrated SI.com
February 4, 2006
Hall of Fame Q&A
Paul Zimmerman
SI.com: Any other comments on the guys who didn’t get in?
Dr. Z: Russ Grimm and Bob Kuechenberg may have canceled each other out. And Gary Zimmerman may have been knocked out by Wright getting in. They aren’t going to put in two offensive tackles.
SI.com: What about Art Monk?
Dr. Z: The negative is that when you played the Redskins, you didn’t say, “How can I stop Art Monk?” He wasn’t a focal figure. The positive about Monk: All he did was help the team win. He was a good, sturdy team guy. But that wasn’t enough.
Boston Globe
January 15, 2006
Here’s One Call on the Hall
Ron Borges
Monk is an interesting case, because when he retired, he was the all-time leading receiver with 940 catches. His 12,721 receiving yards are third all-time. He would seem to be a sure thing, but upon further examination, questions arise. Monk played 16 years in the NFL yet led his team in receiving only six times and was named to the Pro Bowl only three times. He was one of the premier possession receivers of his day, but how dangerous was he considered by opponents? According to some coaches who faced him, not very.
Monk once had 91 catches in a season in which he scored only two touchdowns. Joe Gibbs argues that it was because of John Riggins. Perhaps, but Monk is not even in his own team’s Hall of Fame more than a decade after his retirement.
Compare his production with Irvin, who played only 12 years yet had nearly as many yards (11,904) and touchdowns (65 to Monk’s 68). Irvin also was a big-time postseason performer and a guy who averaged nearly 200 more yards a season than Monk. Both were debated and rejected last year, a fate Monk has suffered several times.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
St. Louis Post-Dispatch
January 15, 2005
Deserving Wehrli has slim chance to enter Hall
Bernie Miklasz
Only six, maximum, can be voted in. First-time eligible Dan Marino is a lock. First-timers Steve Young and Derrick Thomas are virtual locks. Another first-timer, Michael Irvin, will get votes. The two senior committee nominees (Benny Friedman and Fritz Pollard) will receive significant support. And others who have made it to the final 15 in previous years — including Art Monk, Bob Kuechenberg, Harry Carson, Richard Dent and George Young — can count on a number of voters sticking with them.
-=-=-=-=-=-
http://forums.stltoday.com/viewtopic.php?p=3319282
Bernie’s Pressbox
04 Feb 2006
Pro Football Hall of Fame Update
BernieM
Very tough ballot. Amazing group of talent. We had spirited debate and discussion. Some of the longtime veteran voters said it was the most difficult ballot in the history of Pro Football Hall of Fame voting.
I am especially disappointed and surprised that Monk got eliminated at all — and stunned that it happened on the first ballot. I did a lot of research and made a secondary presentation on his behalf, but to no avail.
-=-=-=-=-=-
http://forums.stltoday.com/viewtopic.php?p=3319282#3319282
Bernie’s Pressbox
04 Feb 2006
Pro Football Hall of Fame Update
BernieM
On Art Monk’s credentials…
Three Pro Bowls: Same as Swann and Joiner, and they’re in the Hall of Fame.
The “heart” of that Redskins team was John Riggins.
Number of Pro Bowls for Riggo: 1.
Pro Bowls are just one barometer but hardly tell the entire story.
The dude (Monk) was the constant on a team that won three Super Bowls. He had four QBs during that time. The were three different 1,000 yard backs during that time. Charlie Brown started two Super Bowls opposite Monk, and Gary Clark started two Super Bowls opposite Monk. He was the one constant among skill position players. Yes, Joe Gibbs was the HC and offensive wizard. But Monk actually preceded Gibbs into Washington and was a productive WR before Gibbs’ arrival.
I don’t know….you star for three Super Bowl champions, and you retired with 121 more catches than any receiver who ever played in the NFL? Sounds like a Hall of Famer to me.
Moreover, Monk was a big WR and a great downfield blocker — Gibbs has told me many times that Monk was a key to their running game, because he could take on linebackers and create some room for Riggins, Rogers, Riggs, etc.
Monk was a very underrated postseason performer. Monk hurt in a couple of Super Bowls, but what about getting to the Super Bowls?
In his career, Monk played in 15 postseason games and had 69 catches for 1,062 yards and 7 TDs.
Compared to other Hall of Fame WRs, of the era that’s more postseason catches AND yards than Biletnikoff, Lofton, Swann, Warfield, Stallworth. And all of them played roughly the same amount of postseason games except for Lofton, who played in 12.
People diss Monk because he didn’t have a high TD total. This is true. Well, wonder why? In the red zone Gibbs pounded the ball. And Monk was routinely double covered. That’s why. Some complain that he averaged 13.5 yards per catch….well, yes. he was a possession receiver. He moved the chains. He caught everything in traffic and pushed the Redskins up the field with his receptions good for first downs.
Until Monk, every WR who had retired as the all-time leading receiver was voted into Canton. I’m not sure why my fellow voters are drawing the line on Monk. He played for a ground-based team, and he played before the real explosion of WR totals, and he still had 940 catches for a team that won three SB rings.
Keeping him out of the Hall because he was a possession receiver is like keeping Tony Gwynn out of the baseball Hall because he hit too many singles.
I think it’s crazy…. that Redskins team went to four Super Bowls and won three…. and they have ONE Hall of Fame player from that era… John Riggins. Seems wrong. Where are the Hogs? Grimm, maybe Jacoby? One of the best O lines in NFL history, and a WR who retired with more catches than anybody. But one Redskin is in there from that era. I don’t get it. But that’s just me.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/peter_king/11/26/hof.receivers/index.html
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Maybe among the voters Lotts knows, he believes Monk will be voted in. But that is exactly what he said.
No biggie, Ive got to think that if he said matter of factly that Monk's bust was already on order, it would be picked up nationally and be a huge story that the HOF is predicting electees or skewing the ballot ahead of the vote...
I'm guessing he said it in a joking manner because he is on record in the past saying that he thinks Monk belongs...
Monk has been very close in the past, and now with Peter King switching his vote to YES, that might be the one that puts Monk over the top and in the Hall...
I will still be surprised if he goes in and Irvin doesnt..Monk was a very good player, but Irvin, to me, was more dominant on the field..Defenses rotated coverage to him just to try and stop him. Especially in the red zone. I've never heard or seen game film of Art Monk being the main focus of pass coverage. Gary Clark was always the threat, and Monk was the steady hand. Monk dropped his share of passes too, not like he was thrown to 100 times and caught 97...lol
I just hope one of the WRs gets in, because honestly I think Irvin, Monk and Reed are all deserving (in that order)..And next year Cris Carter jumps into the fray and makes it even tougher for them all...Just my opinion of course...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Excellent article on why Monk should be inducted
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/peter_king/11/26/hof.receivers/index.html
CavalierCards Ebay Auctions >>
Thanks for that link - it was a wonderful story!!
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
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E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Radio station webpage shows Bill O'Rielly at noon...I know he didnt have Ronnie Lott on...lolol
>>
570 in LA is a sports station. The afternoon show is not Bill O'Rielly.
<< <i>
<< <i>Radio station webpage shows Bill O'Rielly at noon...I know he didnt have Ronnie Lott on...lolol
>>
570 in LA is a sports station. The afternoon show is not Bill O'Rielly. >>
My mistake..Found the right station and the Lott interview. His exact words were:
"Well I can tell you right now, Art Monk? Uhh, I'm still..The bust is already made...I mean, so I know. Because he did it for over 14-15 years. And so for me, there's no question there."
About Irvin.."Michael Irvin..If you look at the greatness of what he was able to do in the biggest games, you'd have to think that he's there."
After listening to it all, you can understand exactly what he was saying, which was that he strongly BELIEVES that Monk deserves to go in, not that he has some inside info that the HOF put in an order for an Art Monk bust or that Art has somehow already made it before the vote has even taken place...The entire interview is on the 570 website under the "On Air" "Loose Cannons" link.
No ones knows who is going in until Saturday when the voters actually vote. Monk has a good shot this year, but he's no lock.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>At Large: Peter King, Sports Illustrated (9) >>
If that's the case, he's undergone a dramatic conversion. In years past, he and Zimmermann have led the charge against Art.
<< <i>
<< <i>At Large: Peter King, Sports Illustrated (9) >>
If that's the case, he's undergone a dramatic conversion. In years past, he and Zimmermann have led the charge against Art. >>
Yep, he has officially changed his vote...This is what has alot of people thinking he will get in this year..All it takes is 9 NO votes though, and Monk still has his detractors, just like Irvin does...A shame really...Both of them should be in along with Andre Reed..Reed actually has more catches than Monk! For a position (WR) that starts 2 guys on every team, its very unrepresented in the HOF.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
It is an underepresented position, and I can think of any number of guys who get no mention at all (Cliff Branch rockets to mind) who should, and should probably be in.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I find it very surprising that Monk is not already in the HOF, especially if Swann is in, how could you exclude Monk? >>
Amen brother
I have to wonder if maybe King wasn't essentially called on the carpet by the league for his very public and (again, IMHO) logically insupportable stance against Monk. I know he's not alone in it, but he's been seen as the prime impediment and he's seemed to relish the role. I really wonder (I've written this on other boards), if maybe the league wasn't getting a bit embarrassed about the whole thing. If not, they should be.
Just for the record, Paul Zimmermann is as much of an impediment to some other deserving players, especially members of the 70's Cowboys, as he is to Monk. All of that is a shame, because he's a brilliant writer, who has forgotten more about Football than I know, but he can't seem to let this power trip go.
And just to add a further wrinkle, the main player he's worked against, Cliff Harris, is a guy I utterly loathe personally, but who I feel earned his way in.
And I said I wasn't going to write any more about this...
<< <i>I find it very surprising that Monk is not already in the HOF, especially if Swann is in, how could you exclude Monk? >>
Thats actually a funny comparison, because these players are truly the antithesis of each other...
Monk was the steady, yet unspectacular, guy who played in an offense that typically threw 500-525 passes every year.
Swann was known for the spectacular, some of the greatest catches in NFL history belong to Swann, and many of them took place in the Super Bowl. He played in an offense that averaged around 300-325 passes a year, across from another HOF WR John Stallworth.
Obviously, Art Monk destroys Swann in the stats category. Monk is poster child for being a quantity of catch over quality of catch guy. But if you asked 100 random football fans who they thought was the better WR or who they remember most, its probably 75% Swann.
They do have some similarities. For one, they both have multiple Super Bowl rings. And alot of people forget that Swann would also go over the middle quite often and wasn't afraid to take a hit, just like Monk.
In the grand scheme of things Swann is a tad overrated and Monk is a tad underrated..It took Swann 14 years to make the HOF. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes Monk that long either. Neither is a slam dunk HOFer, and I dont know if anyone would put either of those guys in their "top 10 WRs" of all time.
I think the better argument/comparison for Monk would be Charlie Joiner. Almost carbon copy careers except that Monk has the rings and Joiner doesnt. If Joiner came up for election this year, I don't think he would get in over Monk..In fact, I dont think he would get in at all. Such is life, all about timing..lol
Monk will get in eventually...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
But I do think the system currently being used to vote for the Pro Football HOF is part of the problem. There are too many different positions in the game that are underrepresented due to the fact that only a certain number overall are considered each year. It really hurts deserving candidates in my opinion.
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
<< <i>Hopefully this year.
But I do think the system currently being used to vote for the Pro Football HOF is part of the problem. There are too many different positions in the game that are underrepresented due to the fact that only a certain number overall are considered each year. It really hurts deserving candidates in my opinion. >>
Well, I think it's better than the baseball system, but that's not saying much...
I wish they would expand the vote to 50 writers and 50 GMs/player personnel/league executive guys. Make it an even 100, and you need 80 votes for election...The sampling the have now is too small, and its much to easy to veto someone as it only takes 9 "no" votes...
I do like the process of weeding down from the 100+nominees, to 25 semi-finalist, to 15 finalists(plus the 2 seniors)....Then on vote day they go from 15-10, then 10-6, and then they vote yes or no on those 6...Gives alot more time and opportunity to discuss the merits of each player.
Also, the Senior Committe is a must, because there are just many many players who were underrated, underappreciated from 25+ years ago that deserve a chance to get where they truly belong.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Radio station webpage shows Bill O'Rielly at noon...I know he didnt have Ronnie Lott on...lolol
No biggie, Ive got to think that if he said matter of factly that Monk's bust was already on order, it would be picked up nationally and be a huge story that the HOF is predicting electees or skewing the ballot ahead of the vote...
I'm guessing he said it in a joking manner because he is on record in the past saying that he thinks Monk belongs...
Monk has been very close in the past, and now with Peter King switching his vote to YES, that might be the one that puts Monk over the top and in the Hall...
I will still be surprised if he goes in and Irvin doesnt..Monk was a very good player, but Irvin, to me, was more dominant on the field..Defenses rotated coverage to him just to try and stop him. Especially in the red zone. I've never heard or seen game film of Art Monk being the main focus of pass coverage. Gary Clark was always the threat, and Monk was the steady hand. Monk dropped his share of passes too, not like he was thrown to 100 times and caught 97...lol
I just hope one of the WRs gets in, because honestly I think Irvin, Monk and Reed are all deserving (in that order)..And next year Cris Carter jumps into the fray and makes it even tougher for them all...Just my opinion of course...
Jason >>
Apparently you do not read the news. Michael Irvin is a pothead. He WILL NOT go in before Monk who is thought of as a top notch class act. We know from Lawrence Taylor that drugs will not keep you out of the HOF. However, if they have to choose between a druggie and a class act clean guy, you go with the class act everytime. You do not reward that kind of behavior. They could both get in, but if it is just one it'll be Monk.
<< <i>
Apparently you do not read the news. Michael Irvin is a pothead. He WILL NOT go in before Monk who is thought of as a top notch class act. We know from Lawrence Taylor that drugs will not keep you out of the HOF. However, if they have to choose between a druggie and a class act clean guy, you go with the class act everytime. You do not reward that kind of behavior. They could both get in, but if it is just one it'll be Monk. >>
Actually I read the news daily, and know all about Irvin and his problems. The bottom line is the football HOF and its voters are held to ONE standard. And this is what they did on the field and how they did it. Off the field issues are not supposed to be considered when voting, but its probably why Irvin isnt in already. Based on what I SAW on the field from both of the players (and I have studied/watched ALOT on both of these guys) Irvin was the better overall WR. Maybe not the classiest or have the most total number of catches...But he was a better player on Sunday than Art Monk. Take each players greatest performances and Irvin has more in his 159 games than Monk had in his 224.
Don't get me wrong, I think both are HOF caliber, and each is deserving in their own way, but IMO it would be a travesty to but Monk in over Irvin because he was a "classier" player and a "cleaner" guy off the field. Its about the game, period. At least in my opinion it is. Its football not politics.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Had Irvin not gotten injured, and had played 5 more years like Art Monk, based on his averages he would have ended with:
1,057 receptions
16,770 yards
92 TDs
That's a lock, stock and barrel first ballot HOFer...
If you take Monk's BEST 11 years stretch(same as Irvin played) which was 1981-91, his stats would be:
743 receptions
10,187 yards
57 TDs
All less than Irvin...
So I guess the question is, does a guy playing a bunch of non-Pro Bowl type years at the end of his career, basically just hanging on, make him a more deserving HOFer???
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I hate Irvin's guts and think he should be in jail (not for the drugs, which are his own problem, but for the violence, which is far more troubling), but he's deserving of inclusion, especially since football explicitly limits consideration of a person's worth to what happens on the field.
Art should have gone in when he was first eligible so we wouldn't be dealing with this silly question of whether he should precede Irvin because he was a possession reciever rather than a game breaker. If both went in when they should have, they would both already be in and Art would have preceded him, not because he was better, but simply because of chronology.
Parenthetically, I'm pretty sure they are seriously looking at the idea you mentioned above of expanding the list to 50 voters, which I also think would be a good step. And I echo your opinion about the Vet's Committee. When Art gets in, I'm going to start harping on Chris Hanburger and Jerry Smith
Kids, that is what a post should look like when in disagreement with someone else.
Bravo.
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
<< <i>Art should have gone in when he was first eligible so we wouldn't be dealing with this silly question of whether he should precede Irvin because he was a possession reciever rather than a game breaker. If both went in when they should have, they would both already be in and Art would have preceded him, not because he was better, but simply because of chronology.
Parenthetically, I'm pretty sure they are seriously looking at the idea you mentioned above of expanding the list to 50 voters, which I also think would be a good step. And I echo your opinion about the Vet's Committee. When Art gets in, I'm going to start harping on Chris Hanburger and Jerry Smith
1,000% agree with the above..Honestly I thought Monk would go in right away..If not his first year, then his 2nd or 3rd...As Ive said many times, I think BOTH are HOF caliber. Its just my opinion that Irvin was the better player by a small margin, and he is being punished for his off the field behavior which is wrong when it comes to getting into the HOF...Monk is being punished by Jerry Rice, Cris Carter and Tim Brown who all obliterated his records in this new passing era...Im hoping they BOTH go in this year before Carter clutters the WRs even more next year...
I dont know about Jerry Smith, but I have been singing Chris Hanburger's praises for years. I don't know how Charlie Sanders is chosen as a Senior over Hanburger..Only thing I can think is that all those excellent LBs from the 60s, early 70s are cancelling each other out.
I give that post a 10+ as well...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
His stats are better than Mackey's and almost a mirror image of Ditka's, just with far more TDs. Jackie Smith has a solid lead on Jerry in overall yards, but the number of catches is close and Jerry, again, has more TDs.
In fact, even though Jerry stopped playing after the '77 season, his touchdown record stood until Shannon Sharpe broke it a few years ago.
Jerry Smith
Mike Ditka
John Mackey
Jackie Smith
The feeling is (and I hate to think this is true, but it seems inescapable), that he's being blackballed because of his early death from AIDS and the subsequent revelation that he was gay.
Yet during his playing days, he was only selected to the Pro Bowl 2 times in 13 years?
Mackey 5 pro bowls-10 years
Ditka 5 pro bowls- 12 years
Jackie Smith 5 pro bowls- 16 years
To me, that hurts his case more than anything...
And how many times was he a first team All-Pro? i.e. best at his position?
Doesn't seem he was ever considered an "all-time great" kinda guy while he was playing either.
Good player, but not HOF caliber. He was a good receiver for TEs of his day, and he has a few nice highlights...But HOF? I cant see him ever getting the shot, gay or not...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm not saying that Nat Moore is a HOFer (he's definately on the All Time Dolphins roster) but like Jerry Smith put up solid numbers that were comparable to HOFers from their respective eras.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
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E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Not to steer this one OT, but Jerry Smith's TE contemporaries in the HOF are Ditka, John Mackey and Jackie Smith. All are well deserving, but Jerry is right there.
His stats are better than Mackey's and almost a mirror image of Ditka's, just with far more TDs. Jackie Smith has a solid lead on Jerry in overall yards, but the number of catches is close and Jerry, again, has more TDs.
In fact, even though Jerry stopped playing after the '77 season, his touchdown record stood until Shannon Sharpe broke it a few years ago.
Jerry Smith
Mike Ditka
John Mackey
Jackie Smith
The feeling is (and I hate to think this is true, but it seems inescapable), that he's being blackballed because of his early death from AIDS and the subsequent revelation that he was gay. >>
Thanks for sharing that - I didn't know who Jerry Smith was until your post. It seems that Redskins players in general are overlooked for the HOF. Does anyone else agree? That's surprising to me because they have such a large fan base and the franchise has been around for many years.
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
| Year TM | G | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+
| 1961 chi | 14 | 56 1076 19.2 12 |
| 1962 chi | 14 | 58 904 15.6 5 |
| 1963 chi | 14 | 59 794 13.5 8 |
| 1964 chi | 14 | 75 897 12.0 5 |
| 1965 chi | 14 | 36 454 12.6 2 |
| 1966 chi | 14 | 32 378 11.8 2 |
| 1967 phi | 9 | 26 274 10.5 2 |
| 1968 phi | 11 | 13 111 8.5 2 |
| 1969 dal | 12 | 17 268 15.8 3 |
| 1970 dal | 14 | 8 98 12.2 0 |
| 1971 dal | 14 | 30 360 12.0 1 |
| 1972 dal | 14 | 17 198 11.6 1 |
+----------+-----+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 158 | 427 5812 13.6 43
By the way, t minus 4 hours until the new HOF'ers are announced...
<< <i>Let me post and interesting question - what do you guys think about Nat Moore? His TD total (74) is comparable to many of the WR HOFers, which he did on many Dolphins teams that ran more than they passed.
I'm not saying that Nat Moore is a HOFer (he's definately on the All Time Dolphins roster) but like Jerry Smith put up solid numbers that were comparable to HOFers from their respective eras.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I've always been a fan of Nat Moore. Small guy, not afraid to do the "dirty work"...Slants over the middle, return kicks, etc. Unfortunatly, he suffers from the same fate that many other overlooked WRs suffer from, and that is from playing in the 1970's era. An era dominated by the run, most WRs from that time are almost considered afterthoughts unless they were winning multiple Super Bowls or retiring as the all-time receptions leader..I can list 5 WRs from the 70s right off the top of my head that I would even put in over Little Nat...
In this order:
1-Cliff Branch
2-Drew Pearson
3-Harold Jackson
4-Harold Carmichael
5-Isaaac Curtis
Its a no-win for most of these guys, because no their stats are dwarfed by today's standards, but in their time, they were all excellent players...Worth of at LEAST a sniff...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Irvin was the better player on the field...Monk will get in eventually, Carter will go in first ballot next year and then it should open up more for Monk...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> It seems that Redskins players in general are overlooked for the HOF. Does anyone else agree? That's surprising to me because they have such a large fan base and the franchise has been around for many years. >>
And has three Super Bowl and a couple of NFL Championships on the resumé.
After today, I'm starting to wonder if anyone remembers who actually won Super Bowl XXVI, considering which players from the two teams are now in. (Yes, that's a cheap shot, but I'm not exactly Mr. Magnanimity right now.)
<< <i>In this order:
1-Cliff Branch
2-Drew Pearson
3-Harold Jackson
4-Harold Carmichael
5-Isaaac Curtis >>
I would put every one of those men and Nat Moore in the HOF. Nat had a fine career that encompassed two great eras in Dolphins football. He caught many passes from Griese and Marino, played in two Super Bowls and three of the greatest games in league history (the Sea of Hands game against the Raiders as a rookie; the game against the Chargers in the '81 playoffs, a game that I think was the best ever played; and the upset of the Bears on Monday night in '85.) He also charted a course from deep threat to possession reciever as his career went on. It's really too bad that that's a role that seems to get no respect.
All of those guys listed above have numbers that seem to pale in comparison to most above average WRs of today, but just going by that, regardless of the context, (that the game has chaged dramatically in the intervening years), seems shallow, at best and foolhardy, at worst. I try to judge people against their contemporaries and in the game they played. You can't catch balls that aren't thrown to you.
Take a look at Paul Warfield's stats sometime. At first glance, they seem somewhat pedestrian. The only thing that jumps out is the large number of TDs compared to his overall pass catching total.
Now, obviously, anyone who has seen him on film or saw him at the time, knows he's one of the finest at the position who ever stepped onto a field, and that the wasted time in the WFL, the year missed to the broken leg early in his career (which is why there is no '66 Philadelphia card of him) and Don Shula's run first-pass second offense of the era contribute to that, but you have to look deeper to get that picture.
<< <i>Correct me if I am wrong, but during his playing years, his homosexuality was never revealed. This was something that came out AFTER his retirement. >>
Yes, that's right. After his death, in fact.
<< <i>Yet during his playing days, he was only selected to the Pro Bowl 2 times in 13 years?
To me, that hurts his case more than anything... >>
As time goes on, I grow to care less and less for what people get on the basis of other people's votes. I try to look at what they actually did on the field. That's one reason why Football and Baseball are sports and Figure Skating and Gymnastics really aren't.
Compared to the HOFers of his era, Jerry fits, outpacing two and being in the neighborhood of another. That says about as much as I need to know.
As far as today is concerned, I won't kid you guys, I'm completely furious. I'm not going to review the case or really go into deep speculation. I'm washing my hands of the matter for a good long while. It's just too absurd and painful.
<< <i>
As far as today is concerned, I won't kid you guys, I'm completely furious. I'm not going to review the case or really go into deep speculation. I'm washing my hands of the matter for a good long while. It's just too absurd and painful. >>
Until next year when you go through it all again...lol..You know he will be a finalist again...
I think I will have alot of the same feelings when one of my all-time favorites and hometown hero WR Jimmy Smith comes up for election in 5 years...He was as dominant as anyone except Marvin Harrison over the past 10 years..But he played in virtual anonymity in Jacksonville...Players and coaches around the league, as well as Jacksonville fans who watched every game he ever played (like me) will tell you he is a 1000% HOF caliber player...But with 40 voters coming from media outlets that might not have been paying much attention is going to hurt his chances...
I know I won't be happy every year he gets passed over...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jerry had double his TD total and nearly 100 more catches. Charlie seems to have gone to most of those Pro Bowls. (Their careers ran almost completely parallel.)
And anybody who snubs Jimmy Smith doesn't know Football. Period.
Man, am I glad pitchers and catchers report in a couple of weeks...
Ray Nitschke made ONE pro bowl visit. Maybe not the best MLB in the game at the time but certainly one of the top two to four every year he played. He a was lock HOF'er even though he didn't make a lot of pro bowls.
So when you look at Jerry Smith's career, only 2 pro bowl's would seems to hurt his chances too. Most of his best years came on bad to mediocre teams. Sure they passed the ball a lot with Jurgensen at QB during this era. Smith was the number one or number two target which says a lot about his abilities especially playing the TE position. His TD catches for his position are off the chart. I think he's a definite HOF candidate, but I have no vote. When a player is the 3rd or 4th best at his position in the league for many years and doesn't get the all-pro and pro bowl recognition to go with it , it doesn't necessarily mean they don't deserve some consideration for the HALL when you look at their entire career accomplishments.
I didn't see if the Lions TE Charlie Sanders got in this year or not, but Jerry Smith was easily as good as Sanders and they played mostly during the same era. I saw Smith play, to me he was like a Shannon Sharpe type of receiving TE but during an era where the run was the way to move the ball.
There's so many other deserving players not in the hall yet, at least we have many, many years to debate this. I just hope some of these retired players are still alive by the time they finally get the call.
Rich
Glad to see Hickerson and Wehrli finally get voted in. Both
are well deserving of the honor. I didn't realize Charlie Sanders made 7 pro bowls in his career. I thought he was in maybe 3 or 4. I'm impressed by that total.