Head up concerning Registered mail and paypal.

Trinketts · January 28, 2007 8:36AM

If you have sold an item on Ebay(and were paid by Paypal) and it is over $500 and you use registered mail for delivery you still must purchace signature confirmation on top of the $7.90 registered fee. Even if you can prove the item was delivered with the registered number, Paypal still requires the signature confimation as well.

WinPitcher · January 28, 2007 8:41AM

paypal sux

steve

notwilight · January 28, 2007 8:44AM

I thought delivery confirmation was enough? Paypal shipping says "Delivery Confirmation is Free", they still want you to pay for the signature? I don't like to do that, especially with good feedback bidders, since it can be a PITA for the recipient if there is nobody at home in the daytime. --jerry

Russ · January 28, 2007 8:44AM

First I've heard. You have a link for this?

Russ, NCNE

Russ · January 28, 2007 8:45AM

<< I thought delivery confirmation was enough? >>

Delivery confirmation is useless in a chargeback situation.

Russ, NCNE

Trinketts · January 28, 2007 8:49AM

<< First I've heard. You have a link for this?

Russ, NCNE >>

I just got off the phone with them, ended up having to talk to a dispute resolution manager to get it right. But he assured me if you had an item that was sent registered mail and there was a charge back the registered would not be good enough and they would not honor the seller's protection.

I didn't have a chargeback(Thank God). But was curious because I know how Paypal can be from past experiences.

tmot99 · January 28, 2007 8:50AM

Registered mail IS a signature confirmation. The receiver has to sign for a registered package. It's kind of like saying a bicycle must have 2 wheels. By definition, it does.

Trinketts · January 28, 2007 8:52AM

<< Registered mail IS a signature confirmation. The receiver has to sign for a registered package. It's kind of like saying a bicycle must have 2 wheels. By definition, it does. >>

I thought the same thing.. But if you read the Seller Protection fine print it specificly says Signature Confirmation and believe me, when they get a credit card charge back they will hold you to every single word when having to honor the policy.

storm888 · January 28, 2007 8:56AM

Straight Scoop is on the PayPal site.

ANY item over $249.99 requires the Domestic Return Receipt
(green self-addressed postcard / PS Form 3811), to keep the
seller qualified for PayPal's "seller-protection" plan.

It has been that way for at least a couple years.

WinPitcher · January 28, 2007 8:59AM

Like I said, paypal sux

Steve

Trinketts · January 28, 2007 9:23AM

<< Straight Scoop is on the PayPal site.

ANY item over $249.99 requires the Domestic Return Receipt
(green self-addressed postcard / PS Form 3811), to keep the
seller qualified for PayPal's "seller-protection" plan.

It has been that way for at least a couple years. >>

That wont work... even if you have a return receipt it is not an "Online trackable" method

from the seller protection policy..

You must have trackable online proof of delivery from an independent shipper to the address on the “Transaction Details” page. For transactions involving $250.00 USD or more, you must provide a proof of receipt that was signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer.

If you call them and say hey I have the return receipt, they will say tough! Believe me I know.. I was charged back $900 a little over a year ago.. and the ONLY thing they wanted was Signature Confirmatin that they could view Online..

storm888 · January 28, 2007 9:26AM

"That wont work... even if you have a return receipt it is not an "Online trackable" method"

/////////////////////////////

The DC satisfies the "OT" requirement.
Form 3811 contains the recipients sigy.

Voice of experience speaking to you.

notwilight · January 28, 2007 9:26AM

Thanks for the heads up. To state it simply, if you click on the signature confirmation for about $1.35 or something like that when printing out your own labels are you good?

Thanks,
Jerry

tmot99 · January 28, 2007 9:28AM

Registered Mail is completely trackable online and must be signed for. I've never needed it, but I'm sure that a copy of the signature could be obtained if necessary.

Russ · January 28, 2007 9:28AM

<< You must have trackable online proof of delivery from an independent shipper to the address on the “Transaction Details” page. For transactions involving $250.00 USD or more, you must provide a proof of receipt that was signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer. >>

And, Registered Mail meets that criteria by itself. Next time you talk to one of their drones ask him to show you on their web site where the seller protection policy requires signature confirmation in addition to Registered Mail.

Russ, NCNE

Trinketts · January 28, 2007 9:31AM

<< "That wont work... even if you have a return receipt it is not an "Online trackable" method"

/////////////////////////////

The DC satisfies the "OT" requirement.
Form 3811 contains the recipients sigy.

Voice of experience speaking to you.

>>

Here is what happened to me last year... I sent an item(Trade Dollar). It was received and signed for, I had insurance on the item. Although it was not trackable online I was able to goto the post office and get them to provide me with a copy of the signed name from their intranet. I faxed this to paypal and they told me "not good" enough, since per user agreement we cannot verify this ONLINE ourselves we do not have to honor the seller protection agreement.

I am not trying to be argumentative but just stating what happened to me.

storm888 · January 28, 2007 9:33AM

"...To state it simply, if you click on the signature confirmation for about $1.35 or something like that when printing out your own labels are you good?"

/////////////////////////////

Yes.

BUT, I never use PayPal shipping.

Most USPS stations refuse to scan the PayPal issued DC.
This defeats the semi-tracking that the USPS DC provides;
it costs 45-cents more than the PayPal version, but the
PO will scan it when you buy it. It will show both the
acceptance time, and the delivery time. (Sometimes a few
stops in between.)

The 3811 is also more expensive at the PO than the $1.35
version that PP sells. As long as it is mailed back to you
after the buyer signs - or is scanned w/sig on the website -
it meets the PP "seller protection" requirement.

Trinketts · January 28, 2007 9:36AM

<< "...To state it simply, if you click on the signature confirmation for about $1.35 or something like that when printing out your own labels are you good?"

/////////////////////////////

Yes.

BUT, I never use PayPal shipping.

Most USPS stations refuse to scan the PayPal issued DC.
This defeats the semi-tracking that the USPS DC provides;
it costs 45-cents more than the PayPal version, but the
PO will scan it when you buy it. It will show both the
acceptance time, and the delivery time. (Sometimes a few
stops in between.)

The 3811 is also more expensive at the PO than the $1.35
version that PP sells. As long as it is mailed back to you
after the buyer signs - or is scanned w/sig on the website -
it meets the PP "seller protection" requirement. >>

Now that is scary.. Are you saying the Paypal shipping(and the paypal signature confirmation) if used may not cover you in the event of a charge back?

storm888 · January 28, 2007 9:38AM

"Although it was not trackable online I was able to goto the post office and get them to provide me with a copy of the signed name from their intranet. "

//////////////////////////////////////////////

DC meets PayPal requirements for "tracking," even though it
is NOT always "true tracking." It is on the website almost from the
moment it is scanned at acceptance, and remains for 90-days after
delivery. It is also, archived after removal for up to 12-months.

The 3811 is returned to YOU via mail, AFTER the buyer signs it.

Those are two of the four-elements required to be covered by
the PP plan. (Confirmed addy, and ship within 7-days, are the
other two.)

storm

Russ · January 28, 2007 9:39AM

<< Now that is scary.. Are you saying the Paypal shipping(and the paypal signature confirmation) if used may not cover you in the event of a charge back? >>

You have to hope that it actually gets scanned in on both ends. That's one of the reasons I still do it the old fashioned way. I can watch it get scanned, and I get a USPS imprinted receipt.

Russ, NCNE

sonoranmonsoon · January 28, 2007 9:39AM

I know you must pay the $1.35 signature required to cover PayPal requirements for sales over $250. You have me confused on the statement about registered mail. All registered mail is signed for every time it changes hands, including the final recipiant. I also am a bit confused about the tracking of Registered mail. I always understood it was traced rather than tracked on line, however lately I have been hearing other sellers say they can now type in the registration number and actually track the package on line. I have not tried this myself yet. Did you actually try to file a claim with PayPal and they rejected the registered mail as enough protection? I always pay for USPS insurance on registered mail because it is so cheap at $1000 protection per $0.99 premium, so if there is a real problem I would file my claim with them.

storm888 · January 28, 2007 9:44AM

"Now that is scary.. Are you saying the Paypal shipping(and the paypal signature confirmation) if used may not cover you in the event of a charge back?"

////////////////////////////////////////////////

I am saying that I trust PP as far as I can spit backwards.

The USPS DC ticket costs more, but I get to own it from the
minute I buy it, and it is scanned WHEN I buy it. The PP
label is NOT routinely scanned by the USPS until delivery.

The PP sig cert has the same defects. I want that postcard
back in MY HANDS after the buyer signs it. That, combined with
the relatively-better perfected USPS DC is all you need to
prevail in a PayPal dispute. (Plus the other two-steps: Ship
within 7-days, and ONLY to a confirmed addy.)

sonoranmonsoon · January 28, 2007 9:44AM

<< Straight Scoop is on the PayPal site.

ANY item over $249.99 requires the Domestic Return Receipt
(green self-addressed postcard / PS Form 3811), to keep the
seller qualified for PayPal's "seller-protection" plan.

It has been that way for at least a couple years. >>

I understand now. We need to pay for the RETURN Receipt on registered mail. I did not know that. What about Priority mail, that does not seem to be an option when I print a priority mail shipping label through PayPal.

nicknut12 · January 28, 2007 9:48AM

Trinketts:

I had a fellow board member chargeback on me over a year ago,
on a rather expensive coin. Shipped it registered mail, and I had
no return receipt.

Paypal requires you to fax over a copy of the signed signature
with 5 or 7 days, or they turn their back on you.

The Post Office has online viewing of all signed for
registered packages. They can print you a copy on
a moments notice. As they did for me.

After receipt of the signature (they only accept fax)
there is then a 90 investigation period, while the
funds are in limbo.

Assuming you can provide all documents, then paypal
will let you have the money back (as the did me)(after 90 days).

Pain in the but, but I can understand paypals point of view,
How are they to know who is lying and who is not?

Regards, Steve.

storm888 · January 28, 2007 9:50AM

"What about Priority mail, that does not seem to be an option when I print
a priority mail shipping label through PayPal. "

//////////////////////////////////////////

DC is free w/Priority through PayPal. But, it is the junky DC,
not the 60-cent one the USPS sells and scans at the window.
The USPS DC can be "tracked" at the USPS website.

You STILL need signature confirmation; either the junk one that
PP sells, or the good one that the USPS sells for more money and
mails to you after it has been signed.

planetsteve · January 28, 2007 9:50AM

To sum up:

Over $250, you must use Signature Confirmation to protect yourself when accepting Paypal regardless of whether you send by Registered.

Ignore this advice at your own risk.

I've done the research, I've had the arguments at ebay's community boards and I've expressed the counterarguments presented here. It sounds sensible to you and me that the signature obtained on delivery with Registered should be Good Enough, but to Paypal it isn't because it is not viewable online. With the millions of transactions conducted through Paypal on a regular basis, they simply do not care to take the time to listen to an argument for Registered alone, regardless of how much sense it makes to those of us in the coin world. I'm sure they don't also care to add special exceptions to their already complicated and obscure rules.

Also, be prepared for an argument with your USPS clerk as well. She may state that you "cannot combine Registered with Signature Confirmation," and think you a little dumb not to understand the security and signatures required by Registered. Bring a copy of this section of the Domestic Mail Manual to prove to him that the USPS' own manual clearly states that you can combine SC with Registered. Insist on it.

planetsteve · January 28, 2007 9:54AM

I still wouldn't bother with the old-school green Certified Receipts. They're not electronic and not trackable online, and there's no guarantee that they won't be lost or discarded on their way back to you. It sounds like some of you may have had some luck with these in case of Paypal disputes; I'm not sure when these disputes were argued, but I would not count on prevailing under the current language of the SPP with them, nor would I want to count on receiving them in the seven-day time window cited above.

The question should be: when has the clearly preferred Signature Confirmation failed anyone?

storm888 · January 28, 2007 9:56AM

"I always pay for USPS insurance on registered mail because it is so cheap at $1000 protection per $0.99 premium, so if there is a real problem I would file my claim with them. "

//////////////////////////////////////

Sadly, none of that will save you from a crooked buyer.

USPS insures against loss/damage. Not third-party fraud
that they are unable to investigate and prove.

RECAP: Simply follow the four-steps on items over $249.99.
and you will be golden in any dispute/claim.

1. Ship ONLY to confirmed addy.
2. Ship within 7-days of sale.
3. Use DC.
4. Use sugnature confirmation.

It is easy, but one error will cost the seller his coin and his money.

foxxze · January 28, 2007 9:57AM

<< Straight Scoop is on the PayPal site.

ANY item over $249.99 requires the Domestic Return Receipt
(green self-addressed postcard / PS Form 3811), to keep the
seller qualified for PayPal's "seller-protection" plan.

It has been that way for at least a couple years. >>

A Domestic Return Receipt is neither a " delivery co
nformation " , nor a "signature conformation " !

ram1946 · January 28, 2007 9:58AM

Be very mindful of PPs mandate to be able to track for thenselves on-line. I got burned a couple of years ago by a fraudlent credit card on a non-coin deal where I did not have a DC. I worked hard to get all the doc from the PO, which clearly shows the buyer received and signed for the item. However, PP steadfastly refused to talk to me because they couldn't access the transaction on-line. That was an expensive lesson.

planetsteve · January 28, 2007 10:01AM

I did not find a reference to the "Domestic Return Receipt" on Paypal's current website info including that for SPP. Can the original poster of this information provide a link?

Here's what I see at Paypal's site (emphasis added) link to SPP in detail

11.3 Eligibility. In order to be eligible for coverage under the Seller Protection Policy, you must meet the following requirements:

You must have a Verified Business or Verified Premier Account at the time of the transaction,
The transaction must be between a US, UK or Canadian buyer and a US, UK or Canadian seller,
The payment must be listed as "Seller Protection Policy Eligible" on the “Transaction Details” page,
You must accept a single payment from one PayPal Account for the purchase,
You must not charge a surcharge for accepting PayPal,
You must ship the purchased item to the address listed on the “Transaction Details” page, and that address must be identified as a Confirmed Address,
You must ship the item to the buyer within 7 Days of receiving payment,
You must have trackable online proof of delivery from an independent shipper to the address on the “Transaction Details” page. For transactions involving $250.00 USD or more, you must provide a proof of receipt that was signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer, and
You must respond to PayPal’s requests for information within the time period PayPal specifies.

Please note that in order to be eligible for our Seller Protection Policy you must ship the item as required in this section. If you hand deliver an item, or provide delivery in any manner other than required in this section, your transaction will not be eligible for the Seller Protection Policy.

foxxze · January 28, 2007 10:02AM

<< Registered Mail is completely trackable online and must be signed for. I've never needed it, but I'm sure that a copy of the signature could be obtained if necessary. >>

here we go again ; i think I have never seen anything so confusing as the post office services.......

Registered mail IS NOT trackable on line .......

storm888 · January 28, 2007 10:03AM

"when has the clearly preferred Signature Confirmation failed anyone?"

////////////////////////////////////////

What you are calling "sig con" is USPS Form 3811, for purposes of a
PayPal defense. I have used hundreds of them - maybe thousands -
and NEVER had one fail to get back to me. (It is the green postcard
that you address to yourself before it is affixed to the package.)

Once you have that card in hand, you are prepared when/if PP
asks fo the sig. That sig and the standard DC - viewable online -
are all you will ever need to win a dispute/claim with PP.

storm888 · January 28, 2007 10:06AM

"You must have trackable online proof of delivery from an independent shipper to the address on the “Transaction Details” page. For transactions involving $250.00 USD or more, you must provide a proof of receipt that was signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer,"

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

That is ALL that there is to the requirments.

The USPS DC is viewable online.
Form 3811 has the buyer's signature on it, and YOU have it in your hand.

Simple as that.

nicknut12 · January 28, 2007 10:08AM

Registered mail IS NOT trackable on line .......

All I can say is that this happened to me over a year ago.

The post office does have registered signatures on line.
I saw them, they printed me a copy, I faxed the copy
to paypal. And paypal eventually accepted this as
proof of delivery and gave me my money back.

I presume paypal can look it up on line themselves once they
have the copy from the P.O.

Regards, Steve.

tmot99 · January 28, 2007 10:10AM

<< 

<< Registered Mail is completely trackable online and must be signed for. I've never needed it, but I'm sure that a copy of the signature could be obtained if necessary. >>

here we go again ; i think I have never seen anything so confusing as the post office services.......

Registered mail IS NOT trackable on line ....... >>

Not trackable, as in seeing each transaction, but it is trackable in the sense that you know when it's been signed for. You can give PayPal the registered mail number and they can track when it's been signed. You can also provide a copy of the signature which is actually useless. Any body can sign for a package whether it be signature confirmation or registered mail. I can have my neighbor at my house and they can sign for it. The postman doesn't know.

Tonelover · January 28, 2007 10:11AM

Registered mail IS NOT trackable on line .......

Yes it is, see for yourself. Go to www.usps.com and enter a registered number in the tracking field.

ram1946 · January 28, 2007 10:11AM

Steve, that's the issue. The PO has access to viewing on-line but PP does not. And their requirement clearly states they must be able to view on-line.

Trinketts · January 28, 2007 10:12AM

This is what pulls up when you enter in a registered tracking number:

Your item was delivered at 2:53 PM on December 15, 2006 in WEATHERFORD, TX 76088.

That is it... It does not say the name of the person who it was delivered to.

Now when you enter a signature confirmation you get this(names protected on my end using John Smith)

Your item was delivered at 12:47 PM on January 19, 2007 in NEW PORT RICHEY, FL 34655. The item was signed for by J Smith.

This is why you MUST have Signature Confirmation even on registered mail...

BAJJERFAN · January 28, 2007 10:12AM

Registered mail is fully trackable only by the USPS and no one else. Insured mail is also fully trackable by the USPS and no one else. You as an individual can only partially track registered mail and cannot track insured mail at all. Depending on where you go they may or may not charge for this service.

Graphix · January 28, 2007 10:12AM

WOW, I am confused. Almost as if it sounds like PayPal will find loop holes not to cover you shipment....

"You must have trackable online proof of delivery from an independent shipper to the address on the “Transaction Details” page. For transactions involving $250.00 USD or more, you must provide a proof of receipt that was signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer,"

so what, if someone other then the actual BUYER signs for the package then the buyer can say they never recieved it?

So confused at this point...but sounds like registered mail with a delivery confirmation and signature confirmation all purchased form the PO at time of sending package covers everything. Right????

foxxze · January 28, 2007 10:13AM

I HAVE HAD ACOUPLE INSTANCES WHERE the green card failed to make it`s way back to me ........

planetsteve · January 28, 2007 10:15AM

<< "when has the clearly preferred Signature Confirmation failed anyone?"

////////////////////////////////////////

What you are calling "sig con" is USPS Form 3811, for purposes of a
PayPal defense. I have used hundreds of them - maybe thousands -
and NEVER had one fail to get back to me. (It is the green postcard
that you address to yourself before it is affixed to the package.)

Once you have that card in hand, you are prepared when/if PP
asks fo the sig. That sig and the standard DC - viewable online -
are all you will ever need to win a dispute/claim with PP. >>

I am certainly not saying that Signature Confirmation is the same as USPS Form 3811. Form 3811 is the green-card Return Receipt I have already referred to. Signature Confirmation is the well-known alternative to electronic Delivery Confirmation (DC, as you refer to it above) that obtains a signature as proof of delivery.

I am not saying that your method has not worked for you. Your experience argues well for it.

However, you are still dependent on electronic Delivery Confimation for protection under the SPP. All you need to do to use SC is check a different box; the cost is about the same as Return Receipt and you needn't wait for and file another article of paper. Our argument seems to come down to personal preference; I don't see any advantage for Return Receipt + DC over SC alone.

tmot99 · January 28, 2007 10:15AM

<< So confused at this point...but sounds like registered mail with a delivery confirmation and signature confirmation all purchased form the PO at time of sending package covers everything. Right???? >>

No, it's best to deliver it in person to someone you know and accept only cash.

BAJJERFAN · January 28, 2007 10:16AM

<< Any body can sign for a package whether it be signature confirmation or registered mail. I can have my neighbor at my house and they can sign for it. The postman doesn't know. >>

Actually they are supposed to ask for an ID before they release a registered package.

sonoranmonsoon · January 28, 2007 10:17AM

My brain is really starting to hurt. I sure hope there is not a test at the end of this thread.

planetsteve · January 28, 2007 10:18AM

<< WOW, I am confused. Almost as if it sounds like PayPal will find loop holes not to cover you shipment....

"You must have trackable online proof of delivery from an independent shipper to the address on the “Transaction Details” page. For transactions involving $250.00 USD or more, you must provide a proof of receipt that was signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer,"

so what, if someone other then the actual BUYER signs for the package then the buyer can say they never recieved it?

So confused at this point...but sounds like registered mail with a delivery confirmation and signature confirmation all purchased form the PO at time of sending package covers everything. Right???? >>

DC and SC would be redundant. SC provides the same service as DC, and adds the benefit of the signature which we all seem to agree is needed.

You can request Restricted Delivery if you wish to avoid someone other than the addressee signing for a package. However -- would a delivery person really allow anyone other than an addressee to sign for a Registered package?

nicknut12 · January 28, 2007 10:24AM

Ram.

Perhaps the key issue here is to both ship registered and
to insure full value.

Because then, the P.O. will have some incentive to do
something when someone claims non-receipt.
And Paypal will be aware the that P.O. will back them up.

In my case the fellow board member filled his paypal account
with a credit card, and then claimed non-receipt to the credit card.
The credit card then back charged paypal. And paypal then back
charged me. So perhaps the credit card company was scared
of the P.O..

I got my money back, only because someone was scared of
the P.O.

I presume the board member just got carried
away with the collecting fever and bought to much at once.
It was not a case of someone attempting theft, I think?

Regards, Steve.

planetsteve · January 28, 2007 10:25AM

<< My brain is really starting to hurt. I sure hope there is not a test at the end of this thread. >>

What is the best way to send a Registered package after receiving a Paypal payment?

A. Registered, combined with insurance and Signature Confirmation.
B. Registered, combined with insurance, Delivery Confirmation and Form 3811 (Return Receipt).
C. Either A or B, depending on whether you prefer to trust online confirmation of a signature -- or a green paper card.

It's not a trick question.

sonoranmonsoon · January 28, 2007 10:27AM

Hugegut · January 28, 2007 10:32AM

You can also set up a second bank account where you can dump all your paypal payments after you receive them. Then if paypal tries to pull a bad payment from your account there's nothing there for them to get.

Head up concerning Registered mail and paypal.

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