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All money should be gold and silver coins
GoldenNickels
Posts: 72
http://bullnotbull.blogspot.com/2006/12/fiat-empire-closer-look-at-federal.html
Great video on USD fiat currency.
Great video on USD fiat currency.
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Could you imagine how small a cent would be
It would get lost in your pocket lint!
<< <i>http://bullnotbull.blogspot.com/2006/12/fiat-empire-closer-look-at-federal.html
Great video on USD fiat currency. >>
Link
The commodity theory of money – Money in coin form derives it value from the intrinsic worth of the medal it contains. If money is made of precious metals it will hold its value and will eliminate problems with inflation.
This theory was invalid in the 1700 and 1800s and it’s even more dangerous today. All you do when you limit the money supply by the amount of gold or silver that government owns is to limit the money supply PERIOD. That can be a good or bad thing.
Have you guys been sleeping while Alan Greenspan was chairman of the Federal Reserve? Did you miss his example of prudent money supply management?
But some people never learn. They just spout discredited theories.
Why aren't people screaming in the streets? I didn't know this fact even after 16 years of gov't schooling, 4 years of defending the constitution (army) and 18 years in private business . Maybe that's the problem, the gov't schools create sheeple. Get ready for a severe recession or a depression. Inflation is not our friend.
money could be backed by a few percentage point, with hard assets.
Such a move would probably increase the value of precious metals
on a magnitude of 4-10 times it's current value. I dont think that
governments would go for it though, it might tie their hands not
having 100% ersatz money. How about if all our coinage were already
graded and in plastic before we got it?
Camelot
Camelot
Have you guys been sleeping while Alan Greenspan was chairman of the Federal Reserve? Did you miss his example of prudent money supply management?
/i]
So then, the question becomes "Which is better or worse - imprudent money supply management, or limitation of the money supply, period?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Article 1 Section. 10. No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
Why aren't people screaming in the streets? I didn't know this fact even after 16 years of gov't schooling, 4 years of defending the constitution (army) and 18 years in private business . Maybe that's the problem, the gov't schools create sheeple. Get ready for a severe recession or a depression. Inflation is not our friend. >>
Perhaps because they learned in school from modern economic theory that limiting a nation’s money supply to the stock of one or two commodities is a recipe for national poverty.
Look at it this way. India as a nation has more gold that most any other country on earth. Yet until a few years ago when they got smart and tapped into their vast human resources (off shore computer programing, call centers etc.) they were among the poorest people on earth. Being on the gold standard does not translate into a strong national economy in and of itself.
<< <i>Article 1 Section. 10. No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
Why aren't people screaming in the streets? I didn't know this fact even after 16 years of gov't schooling, 4 years of defending the constitution (army) and 18 years in private business . Maybe that's the problem, the gov't schools create sheeple. Get ready for a severe recession or a depression. Inflation is not our friend. >>
The power of making money is left to the Federal government. The section highlighted is to prevent each state from having its own brand of currency and to allow an exemption for the foreign silver coins (mostly Spanish) widely used in commerce. Back in 1787 that was a big fear and it would have made commerce much more difficult. What about copper coins? And nickel? And the 10% copper in the silver and gold coins?
ALL fiat currencies have failed. What makes you think ours will survive?
edit: as a comparison India control around 350 ton of gold.
of 8,000 tons of gold, I believe that most of it,
is actually owned by other nations. It is just too
costly to keep shipping the stuff around the world.
Camelot
Some people claim Fort Knox is empty.
And of we were on the gold standard, many of the dollars that foreigners are holding would be redeemed in gold, and by your definition we would be as poor as church mice. And if the gold were pulled out of the country we would have contract our money supply by trillions. The result would make The Great Depression look like a minor downturn.
It also means that New Jersey cannot enter into a treaty with a foreign nation...etc.
India consumes over 800 tons of gold yearly for domestic jewelry alone.
from BBC source, I don't want to get into a big source hunt right now, but I think your figure is off.
I am still at a loss of how any state in this country ( you can pick anyone you like) can pay its debts without violating Article 1 one the Constitution. I know that there are no laws against the mint making any type coin they out of any metal as long as Congress approves the issue. But according to Article 1 Section 10 a state must still pay its debts in gold or silver. How can any Congressman, Senator, President or any official that swears an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution not do something to get our money back the way it constitutionally should be?
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Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
I think the U.S. has 147 billion in Gold. Everyday financial life would be ground to a halt while we patiently waited for the miners to increase the money supply by a few million ounces per year. It seems that inflation could be halted if the world's fiat currencies were kept on par with that respective countries GDP output.
<< <i> I didn't know this fact even after 16 years of gov't schooling, 4 years of defending the constitution (army) and 18 years in private business . Maybe that's the problem, the gov't schools create sheeple. >>
Evidently those "government schools" taught you how to read and write. How about taking some personal resposibility for not reading your own constitution sooner, instead of blaming others for what you didn't know?
Don
Tyler
Article 1 Section. 10. No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
Why aren't people screaming in the streets? I didn't know this fact even after 16 years of gov't schooling, 4 years of defending the constitution (army) and 18 years in private business . Maybe that's the problem, the gov't schools create sheeple. Get ready for a severe recession or a depression. Inflation is not our friend.
*****************
Interesting, but irrelevant. The section in question is merely designed to keep States from issuing paper money. The wording that is relevant, however, is Article I, Section 8, Paragraph 5: [The United States shall have the power] To coin money [and] regulate the value therof...
One has to wonder why everyone quotes the wrong section of the Constitution and ignores the correct part.
Denga
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
This is pure hogwash. First, the government doesn't need to own any money. Money should be owned by the people. Secondly, if money was gold and silver like it was intended to be, it needs no government to be determine its worth. An once of gold today can buy the same amount of goods and services as it did in 1850.
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
This is pure hogwash. First, the government doesn't need to own any money. Money should be owned by the people. Secondly, if money was gold and silver like it was intended to be, it needs no government to be determine its worth. An once of gold today can buy the same amount of goods and services as it did in 1850.
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
Right on. But this applies so much more to Silver - which is truly an industrial metal - much more so than gold. Also, gold is abundant - people think "fiat" currency is government controlled? So is gold! Central banks are running the show - at least in large part. Silver, however, is in a real industrial deficit and the gov't stockpiles are gone. The price has been held down by many different forces, most importantly certain entities in the futures markets. This is slowly lifting, and vehicles such as the silver ETF are playing an important role. That's why the Silver Users Association tried so hard to block the ETF. For decades they said silver is abundant and then at the last minute reverse their position saying that the ETF will cause silver prices to skyrocket. They are perfcetly aware of the fact that silver is very rare and that soon enough the only way to meet deamd will be new mines, and of course that will require much higher silver prices for the mining cos to put in that investment. When silver goes above $20, perhaps some people will wake up to the real silver situation. The price has tripled in recent years and yet the investment world is largely asleep. Silver is the real gold mine heading into the next decade. The real question should not be why this is the case but, rather, why nobody sees this.
<< <i>
<< <i> I didn't know this fact even after 16 years of gov't schooling, 4 years of defending the constitution (army) and 18 years in private business . Maybe that's the problem, the gov't schools create sheeple. >>
Evidently those "government schools" taught you how to read and write. How about taking some personal resposibility for not reading your own constitution sooner, instead of blaming others for what you didn't know?
Don >>
[chortle]
I think we need to read about the "Crime of 1873" and the financial crises of the 1890's to get a better idea of what would happen when we tie the dollar to gold.
Obscurum per obscurius
Artilce 1, Section 8 of the constitution still says that States must pay debts in gold or silver. Just because congress can regulate the value of money doesn't change the fact that debt must be paid in gold and silver. The only legal tender money produced by our government today are silver and gold eagles, gold buffaloes, and commemorative coins made from silver and gold. It is not consitutionally legal for a state to pay debts with paper money only gold or silver.
***********
Well, both the States and the Federal Government were paying debts with paper money – primarily notes of the Bank of the United States – by the mid 1790s. Theoretically the notes were redeemable in either gold or silver but after 1800 it was only silver that was readily available. If all of the notes had been presented at once for payment in specie the Bank would have collapsed, a fact that was essentially true for all world Central Banks in the 19th century.
Perhaps the State officials never bothered to read the Constitution? Or more likely, they understood perfectly well what the Constitution meant and acted accordingly.
Denga
<< <i>If you want to connect a dollar with a certain amount of metal, a monetary system backed by gold will work. Like I said before, an ounce of gold has the same purchasing power it did in 1850. Prices only go up in fiat currency. Paper dollars that aren't backed by gold is just a way for the government, through the Federal Reserve, to print more money to finace social projects and wars and any other thing they want to do. Instead of raising taxes to finance these projects, the government just prints more money and thus prices goods and services rise, not the value of gold. In 1933 when Roosevelt wanted all these social programs started, the government tried to print more notes than were backed by gold. Well, he got his hand caught in the cookies jar when gold notes started to be redeemed and not enough gold was on reserve. That is why gold was and gold noted were recalled and made illegal to prevent embarassment to the Roosevelt administration. That is when this mess started. Without the dollar tie to gold the government was then able to print more money than backing and this is what cause inflation. Same thing happened in the 1960. If the government needs more money than it has, it just prints more. >>
Money is what people think is money and it's worth what they think
it's worth. When the government prints more money and there's more
of it chasing goods then people think it's worth less so this is inflation.
Gold has no intrinsic value beyond what people ascribe to it but there
is a long history of sudden changes in what people feel gold is worth
and in how much they value money based on gold. If they suddenly
come to believe that the treasury has been looted of gold then there
will be a financial panic. Anything that affects peoples' perception of
gold value will affect the value of money and, by extension, commerce.
This has been disastrous numerous times in history.
Tying money to gold not only opens up the problems of changes or per-
cieved changes in value but also does little or nothing to really restrain
governments from deficit spending. There is also a long history of gover-
nments debasing the currency. There is a need in modern times for ready
increases in money supply to conform to growing economies and popula-
tions. Without increasing money supply boom times can stall and turn to
depression for no fundamental or structural reason.
As always the real cure for inflation is reigning in government spending,
but unlike older economies which were based primarily on agriculture for
most individuals, depression or panic is no longer a viable option or in any
case a political expediency.
I do not believe there is any commodity with a sufficiently stable and grow-
ing supply to make a good basis for money. A better alternative would be
to simply limit money growth to economic by law. But then the politicos who
vote for exceptions would still need to be voted from office.
Exactly - but even more important is that the amount of silver used in most industrial applications is so small that the industry could tolerate a huge increase in silver prices without disturbing usage.
The physical quantity of gold is not very relevant. You can have a currency based on even a small amount of gold that does not circulate but is held as a reserve to back the currency.
However, no matter how it was instituted, the practical effect would be to dramatically increase the price of gold. In other words, you could do it, but the result would be gold valued at a very high number - maybe $5,000 an ounce or $10,000 an ounce. I think the calculation would need to be "all of the fiat money issued by the United States" divided by the "total gold holdings of the United States government." Then you could back the currency with gold. You wouldn't need to buy any more gold.
it justs prints more money."
I WANNA BE A GOVERNMENT
RIGHT AWAY!!!!!!
Camelot
It is pretty much obvious that they haven't read the Constitution or blatently ignore it A good portion of the federal government's budget is for programs that are unconstitutional. I see no where in the constititution about Social Security, Education, Medicaid, etc being funded by the federal government that is for the States to fund. The big problem is that are representatives will not stand up and stay "These programs are unconstituional and I wont vote for it". They are too worried about keeping power and being re-elected.
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
It couldn't really be done right now either, you'd have to start a new currency or start from scratch. Our current system is fractional reserve and debt based. It's backed merely by people's faith in it, not much else.
It's very unlikely that the US still owns all 8100 tons of claimed gold reserves. In recent years the US has likely been conducting gold swaps and leases with other nations. It's also not unthinkable that the bullion banks have played the game of swapping future mined gold for vault gold in order to manipulate gold pricing a tad longer. A significant percentage of what's in our vaults (50% originally) is melted 22K coin gold from the 1930's which has a much lower purity than typical bar gold (24K, .995+ fine). Kirby raises the question below as to who would need to swap melted coin gold with England? One possible reason is that the 4500 tons of fine gold listed as owned by the US is no longer the case. And if large quantities of coin gold began showing up it wouldn't be hard to guess who the primary source would be.
Don't look now but the Treasury may not be in control of printing our money all that much longer. There is a bill circulating (Coinage Act of 2006) to give control of the US Mint and the BEP to the Federal Reserve. Basically this would give the FED complete control of authorizing and then printing the money. A clean sweep if you will for this privately owned agency. The FED could even decide to cease the minting of coins consisting of precious metals.
For something that is considered by most to have little value in today's economies, the bankers have sure gone to a lot of trouble to control it. It only took the FED 16 years (1913-1929) to maneuver us into the worst depression in our history by creating too much liquidity. And at that time I believe the US held something like 80% of the world's gold reserves. The fact that the US has held the world's currency for 60+ years has had much more to do with our prosperity than removal of the gold standard. Having a strong manufacturing base and real assets (oil, agriculture, real estate, gold, natural resources) to go along with that currency is critical in maintaining ownership of the "world's currency."
Rob Kirby - quality gold swap with England
roadrunner
<< <i>And of we were on the gold standard, many of the dollars that foreigners are holding would be redeemed in gold, and by your definition we would be as poor as church mice. And if the gold were pulled out of the country we would have contract our money supply by trillions. The result would make The Great Depression look like a minor downturn >>
Isn't the US Mint ongoing sales of gold bullion coins (American Gold Eagles) a form of redemption of our US dollars???????????