Are there any LOST baseball cards (existed before, but today no surviving copies exist)?

Estil · January 23, 2007 10:40PM

For example, let's say there was two or three really obscure cards from a baseball card set (perhaps tobacco era?) from way back, and they were all destroyed in a fire or something. Or perhaps it is known that a 1/1 card got destroyed by fire or something.

Estil · January 24, 2007 11:12PM

Guess not...

frankhardy · January 24, 2007 11:29PM

Interesting question. I don't know the answer, though.

Somebody is probably brave and stupid enough to take a 1/1 card and destroy it just to say they did.

baseballfanatic · January 24, 2007 11:52PM

Rumor had it in the late 70's that someone had been hoarding up 1967 B. Robbys, 1970 Johnny Bench and 1971 Steve Garveys and had them all destroyed in a house fire which lead to the "scarcity" and insane prices these three cards were holding at the time.....

80sJunkie · January 25, 2007 1:00AM

I heard that during hurrican katrina alot of modern low pop and 1/1 stuff was destroyed during the flood at least 2 card shops in new orleans area were completly lost . But we may never know what exactly was lost.

onlyanumber · January 25, 2007 1:43AM

I don't know if I would classify it as extinct, but there are numerous modern issue low pop cards that are being hoarded by individuals. Whether they are destroyed or not is up in the air, but being hoarded, they're off of the market, making other copies tough to find. When you think about how easy it is to gobble up any of a particular card on FEEbay, accumulation is easy.

For another example, look at Etopps. There's a guy out there (good guy that I've dealt with), that bought up a bunch of a Brad Johnson card--something like 100 of the 231 card print run. Now you can't find the card...He also took the cards in hand, so getting it for your set online is next to impossible...

mikeschmidt · January 25, 2007 2:11AM

There are numerous 19th and early 20th century baseball cards that to the hobby's current knowledge, exist in the singular form, e.g. a unique example. For many of those cards, there is strong suspicion that the checklists for that set may have originally been more expansive, but additional examples have not been absolutely confirmed.

Examples of sets for which checklists are not fully known:

D380 Clement Bros.
D380-1 Clement Bros.
E104-III (there have been at least five additions to the checklist in the last few years)
Holsum Bread (a theoretic checklist is available -- but confirmed examples are much fewer)
Same goes for Niagara Baking Co., which is essentially an E101 with an overprint
N154 Duke Presidential Baseball Club
Old Judge checklists have never been fully formed (N172 and N173, especially on the former if you include the variations)
Just So Tobacco
Even the Al Demaree Die-Cuts
Pinkerton Cabinets
T231 Fan Cigarettes

Etc.
etc.

basestealer · January 25, 2007 2:24AM

I think the Honus Wagner is about as close to an old card being "extinct" as one is going to find. You could theoretically try to corner the market on a specific card, but the truth is you'll never be able to obtain EVERY SINGLE COPY. Now, with modern day manufactured rarities, like the 1/1 parallels and all that other garbage, I'm sure someone has or had a 1/1 card and destroyed it, thus it no longer exists. However, nobody in this hobby really gives a crap about that modern junk anyway. There's so many 1 of 1 "rare" cards out there the market is saturated with them.

mikeschmidt · January 25, 2007 2:28AM

There are at least a few dozen known Honus Wagners cards circulating through the hobby. How many did Mastro have with them at last year's National? Was it seven? Five? I forget -- and most of them were raw...

There are many other cards in the hobby from that era that are specifically known to be unique....

m

basestealer · January 25, 2007 2:46AM

If it's not part of a popular set, it won't matter because it won't get any attention. I can go make my own baseball card right now, and then destroy it. It would then be extinct--but who would care and who would know? The Wagner is not extinct, but I said it is as close to extinct as he's going to find. There has to be enough of a card at one time for people to have heard of it, collected it. Like the Dodo bird--it was a popular bird and people have captured it on film. It is now extinct. If nobody had ever seen one, we wouldn't have known it existed, nor would we have known it was extinct.

mikeschmidt · January 25, 2007 3:02AM

Just So is not a "popular" set, simply because of its rarity, but I guarantee you that a common from that set that is unrestored would fetch $5-$10K+, without a blink of the eye.

scooter729 · January 25, 2007 3:06AM

<< <i>If it's not part of a popular set, it won't matter because it won't get any attention. I can go make my own baseball card right now, and then destroy it. It would then be extinct--but who would care and who would know? The Wagner is not extinct, but I said it is as close to extinct as he's going to find. There has to be enough of a card at one time for people to have heard of it, collected it. Like the Dodo bird--it was a popular bird and people have captured it on film. It is now extinct. If nobody had ever seen one, we wouldn't have known it existed, nor would we have known it was extinct. >>

The point that Mike Schmidt is making is that major sets have cards scarcer than Wagner. In the T-206 set alone, the Plank, Magie and Doyle NY National cards are all rarer than Wagner. The Doyle variation has what, less than 5 known copies? So the Wagner is not quite the closest thing to extinct.

basestealer · January 25, 2007 3:07AM

Yes, but then again that isn't extinct. The OP was asking about extinct cards. My opinion is that there is not a baseball card that was known to exist at one time, that no longer exists. Except maybe the oddball 1:1 parallel from the modern era.

bishop · January 25, 2007 3:24AM

The Topps 1955 Hocus Focus cards indicate on the backs that there are 23 in the "set", but #11, 17, 19,22 and 23, if they exist, are unknown. There may be only one each of the 1970 Topps Cloth Stickers. Nineteen are catalogged (a collector on this board has hogged quite a few of them), but there maybe more. Same with the Topps 1966, as opposed to 1967, Punch Outs.

The 1863 Jordan & Co set of 4 cards doubled as tickets to a baseball game in Septemebr of 1863. Recorded evidence indicates there were 4 cards, but no surviving examples of 2 of them are known. Some people claim these to be the first baseball cards.

mikeschmidt · January 25, 2007 3:24AM

<< <i>Yes, but then again that isn't extinct. The OP was asking about extinct cards. My opinion is that there is not a baseball card that was known to exist at one time, that no longer exists. Except maybe the oddball 1:1 parallel from the modern era. >>

How about the T231 Fan Cigarettes. Only two examples have ever been reported to exist (each presumably unique), of Baker and Bigbee, and one of them has not been confirmed to exist in the past 10 years, give or take. It may be out there -- but whomever owns it (if it indeed still exists) is not letting on.

~ms

theczar · January 25, 2007 4:56AM

i knew some who once tried to buy up the market of 1988 topps scott terry cards. he had many, many, MANY thousands of them. still couldn't put a dent into it.

storm888 · January 25, 2007 5:20AM

"My opinion is that there is not a baseball card that was
known to exist at one time, that no longer exists."

////////////////////////////////////

That is likely a fact; in terms of being able to conclusively
prove extinction.

In 100-years from now, if no examples of some cards have
shown up, it might be possible to use the word "extinct."
Even 100-years might not be a long enough time of "no
sightings" to say for sure.

A card thought to be a goner could show up 300-years from.

The only correct way to talk of "extinction" is likely to say:

"No examples are currently believed to exist."

storm

bishop · January 25, 2007 7:23AM

It would not surprise me one bit if Alan Rosen discovered a whole stash of pristine 1863 Jordan & Co cards in a shoe box in the attic of a little old lady in Hoboken, NJ

SDSportsFan · January 25, 2007 7:34AM

There are undoubtedly many N172 Old Judges (particularly the Cap Anson in uniform) that have only one known copy.

Steve

XanaduNow · January 25, 2007 7:55AM

I think there are 4 (maybe 5) copies of the '48 Leaf Rocky Marciano cards known to exist. Of course, that card is probably still in the "waiting for the next copy to be uncovbered" stage as opposed to the "no one's seen it in decades" stage.

Arthur

NickM · January 25, 2007 7:55AM

I would be shocked if Hurricane Katrina did not destroy many modern 1/1s, some of which were assuredly in unopened packs/boxes. Several card sets have had 1/1s occurring multiple times per case (especially press plates).

As to older cards, I would not be surprised if Hurricanes Katrina, Andrew, etc. had destroyed some cards that were the only one surviving (and maybe the only one created) of certain rarities.

I don't know whether looking at vintage card sets that have never been completely catalogued is the best way to find these cards - some of these sets may have been skip-numbered to keep kids coming back for more, as opposed to being extremely short-printed on one or a few cards.

Nick

JackWESQ · January 25, 2007 9:33AM

What about the 1932 U.S. Caramel Freddy Lindstrom? This link Link to Thread Re: U.S. Caramel Freddy Lindstrom states that there are only two copies of this card in existence? SMR states that a PSA 3 sold for $79,876.00. I wonder who owns them? I'm sure if any or either them are destroyed, someone would know.

I vaguely recall reading a column/article in print discussion rare cards in general. The article mentioned a hockey card so rare that they were unable to locate a copy of it even for purposes of picturing it in the article. Any help?

/s/ JackWESQ

jgarci11 · January 25, 2007 9:56AM

Retarded comments by Basestealer just show how ignorant card collectors are in regard to modern day issues. You can not shun this hobby from 1981 onward. just because you like to collect pre 1981 cards (or is it pre 1941)

You should insult the card collectors that collect modern cards. If you possessed the power to have a 1 of 1 than you would not be saying things like this. You and alot of the early card collectors are passing up a great opportunity to buy modern cards that will become the classics of tomorrow.

The number of brands and variations of modern cards is ENORMOUS, true, but fortunately, as bright and intelligent card collectors, we modern card guys are braving through the storm and establishing the future of the hobby.

I have one of ones, I have dozens of 1993 refractors, and I have so many variations of one card it would make your head spin. This is what I do and know and in time most collectors will learn the intricacies of the modern era.

Don't be lazy, Basestealer, try to find the gems that exist in the modern era. BY not being so discrimitaing, and educating yourself, you can find a lot treasure! Therefore DON'T call MODERN CARDS JUNK!!

LIKEWISE, I won't hold a grudge against you for possessing cards which were hoarded and pumped up by the baby boomers making their kids' feel that their youthful card collections were inadequate. Deal?

P.S. I hated feeling like crap when I was a kid and would get ripped off or couldn't afford Classic cards. It just doesn't seem right and beacsue of that, one of my missions in life is to see the classic "blue chip" cards prices perpetually stagnate, while helping the modern era cards prices and fame to go up. Yeah so that's what I think I want.

basestealer · January 25, 2007 10:02AM

With all due respect, you can piss away your money any way you like. The market speaks for itself. I don't think all modern cards are junk--the hobby improved slightly post '95 strike, and there are some interesting modern issues like heritage that I have dabbled in. But you can't complete a set when manufactured rarity makes parellels a must, yet they are so "rare" one cannot obtain them. This hobby is supposed to be for kids--not anymore. It's high stakes gambling and I think it's become a joke. I'm embarassed for people who buy into it. I hate it that shops have put the vintage in the back room to display used bat and jersey cards. Destroying priceless relics to insert pieces into cards is a travesty. These are my opinions--I wouldn't give two turds if I was the last person on earth that felt this way, I'm not going to change.

jgarci11 · January 25, 2007 10:05AM

How can the hobby for kids when prices for the blue chip cards have been out of site for decades?
Scouring ebay, looking for the rare cards is how you make a rare set. Learn the deal, yo!
It is not immpossible to find impossible cards. Card shops are even more retarded than... BUT THEY ALWAYS HAVE BEEN!!!

basestealer · January 25, 2007 10:17AM

The prices have gone through the stratosphere because adults got back into the hobby in the 1980's and demanded adult products. Kids were shut out. I guess now they get larger allowances--either way I think it's gambling. The cards in the packs should be worth the price paid with or without a rare insert being pulled. I would rather have a set that's rare because it's old, and because it was printed at a time when people didn't care for the cards, than a set that is only rare because the marketing gurus at Topps decided to print just 5 copies. Every card busted out of a pack today goes right into a toploader. It's going to take a millenium for the new stuff to have intrinsic value, and even then I think people will have preserved them so that gems will be commonplace. It's about my personal investment decision--coupled with what I find visually appealing to collect. Things have to be considered "junk" for a few years before they'll ever have value. Think about how worthless '52 topps would be today if anybody thought they were worth anything back in the '50's. Modern day cards will never get the chance to experience a natural and progressive move to intrinsic rarity if people don't start throwing them into the garbage.

bigwilli · January 25, 2007 10:27AM

people can argue all they want about vintage vs modern but i myself collect both . i have some t206s and some other pre-war cards , which by modern standards weould be considered very boring looking . i also have a very nice run of 1960 topps cards going . as far as modern , i do have several sets i collect , such as bowman draft picks and upper deck ultimate and a few others . i have discovered that its no harder finishing a modern set then it is a vintage one . yes variations on modern cards sometimes make it hard to finish a set , but then again so does the price of a nicely centered vintage card . people will collect what they like modern , vintage , baseball , football , hockey , boxing whatever . we all collect and whatever one choices to collect , i personally praise them for being in a wonderful hobby .

Estil · December 12, 2018 4:49PM

I thought in light of that guy with the Joe DiMaggio card were only six PSA graded ones exist with the highest only a PSA 3...I thought it'd be a good time to reopen this thread...especially once I found out the proper term is "lost" rather than "extinct". "Extinct" is for living things that no longer exist. "Lost" can of course refer to "lost film", "lost books", etc that normally multiple copies would exist but in this case there are NO surviving copies that we know of (or perhaps only parts survived).

So are there any cards like that? Where there are cards from long ago that there are NO surviving copies known to exist?

softparade · December 12, 2018 4:57PM

It sucks when modern recent releases are trashed by others.

bishop · December 12, 2018 7:17PM

Even when it happened 10 years ago. Maybe such thinking has evolved or become extinct

Unknown · December 12, 2018 8:28PM

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jay0791 · December 13, 2018 3:54AM

Live and let live
Good words to live by.
What makes this hobby is everyone doesn't collect the same thing.
I collect old and new. If everyone just collected vintage most of this hobby would collapse.

What is out there and in collections or not yet found id totally impossible to catalog.
New varieties are coming out all the time.

JoeBanzai · December 13, 2018 6:15AM

@bishop said:
The Topps 1955 Hocus Focus cards indicate on the backs that there are 23 in the "set", but #11, 17, 19,22 and 23, if they exist, are unknown. There may be only one each of the 1970 Topps Cloth Stickers. Nineteen are catalogged (a collector on this board has hogged quite a few of them), but there maybe more. Same with the Topps 1966, as opposed to 1967, Punch Outs.

The 1863 Jordan & Co set of 4 cards doubled as tickets to a baseball game in Septemebr of 1863. Recorded evidence indicates there were 4 cards, but no surviving examples of 2 of them are known. Some people claim these to be the first baseball cards.

I think Al has come closest to the answer here (no surprise) the OP was getting at with the 55 HF set.

davidlisa · December 13, 2018 6:23AM

Interesting topic, I think obviously, this question is difficult to answer. I've had the opinion for a long time the many of the vintage cards that have been "discovered" recently "may" not be legitimate. When the T206 Cobb backs were found recently I wondered, where did the original owner get them ? A bag in the attic ? No other cards in the attic ? I think modern technology could easily be used to create vintage cards and fool the experts but maybe not. It certainly has with autographs as the recent autographed T206 debacle has shown.

Unknown · December 13, 2018 6:57AM

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bishop · December 13, 2018 7:19AM

In 1981 Topps and Coca Cola released team sets of the MLB teams. Each set except the Yankees involved 11 players and a Header card. For some reason the Yankee set was not released at retail. Fritsch offers the Yankee Header card and 3 of the Yankees on his web site, and you can usually find those 3 on eBay.

I have over time found 6 other Yankeee cards not offered by Fritsch. I have not seen those 6 anywhere else so far. Assuming Topps produced a full Yankee set as proofs or prototypes that for some reason was not fully released, there should be one more Yankee out there, likely an OF guy.....unless only 10 Yankees were produced, which would be different from every other team. Or, maybe the set was not released because they mistakenly only produced 10 players ?

Maybe the 11th Yankee once existed but now does not.

Am down to needing only one to finish the 55 Hocus Focus baseball set, which for me has been the toughest issued at retail Topps set to compete. The 56 is pretty tough as well.

bishop · December 13, 2018 8:01AM

The 3 Yankees Fritsch offers that can be found on eBay are Gossage, Jackson and Cerone ( Plus the Header card). The other 7 I have found are John, Nettles, Dent, Randolph, R Jones, Watson and Guidry. Missing OF might be Winfield ? Piniella ?

tulsaboy · December 13, 2018 8:01AM

Al, could you post pics of the 1981 Coke Yankees that you have or have seen? The 3 usual ones that Fritsch offers also pop up on ebay from time to time and don't seem to be too expensive. Wonder why Topps stopped and didn't issue those?
kevin

brad31 · December 13, 2018 8:03AM

Al I always enjoy reading your posts. I am constantly learning from the boards and appreciate all the knowledge you share.

1951WheatiesPremium · December 13, 2018 8:57AM

Collecting has been around a long time. People collect all sorts of stuff and it is all cool. Having people to share it with makes it even better.

That aforementioned Joe D card that I acquired is worthless to a vast percentage of the population (unless you tell them what it is and what it is potentially ‘worth’). Even now, I’m not positive that I didn’t overpay for the card. However since I bought it raw I can say with certainty that having it certified by PSA has added significant value to it. As hobby trends have changed and the marketplace has moved online, many collectors have shown a desire to ‘know what they’re getting’ if they’re investing money into a ‘serious’ collection, particularly younger folks who will move the hobby forward.

As such, I like to point out that there are vast numbers of existing collectors out there who have no interest in grading and/or authentication of their cardboard. So there will always be waves of ‘new’ vintage for years to come; released sporadically and available for a limited time only. It’s why we hope.

How you got it, why you got it or why it got away. The prices you sold yours for and what it could get today! How many are there? In what grade? Ever seen one? Ever held it? Want to trade? It’s half the fun of a hobby - not just the piece but the stories behind it. Only a small part should be the price when you unwind it.

Griffins · December 13, 2018 1:34PM

I"m 99.99% positive the 1916 Tango Eggs set is complete at 48 cards, but to date only 22 have been seen. 3 of those are new ones that have been discovered in the last 9 years. I'm sure there are more that will pop up.

1951WheatiesPremium · December 13, 2018 1:45PM

For what it’s worth to the thread, the 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos Set has 12 total cards.

While I have personally seen only 2 copies of the 12th card - Jack Kramer (below) - I have never handled one nor seen it offered for sale and PSA has graded 0 examples. (SGC has 1).

bishop · December 15, 2018 8:08AM

ReggieCleveland · December 15, 2018 8:35AM

There's around 10 baseball cards in the '33 R308 Tattoo Orbit that are unknown. I've always hoped I'd be the one to find a Ruth (he's not in the set thus far).

Unknown · December 17, 2018 8:43AM

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Estil · December 17, 2018 9:07AM

Well I guess I'm finding out some "critically endangered" cards at least!

Unknown · December 17, 2018 9:09AM

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Panama Mutiny (Formerly lawyer05) · December 18, 2018 12:42PM

and we you do find them, PSA wont grade them because of 'NO INFO" lol

Estil · November 18, 2023 10:46PM

I was once again curious about this topic (I also find the subject of lost films fascinating as well) so if you guys don't mind I wanted to again bring this up and see if there are any lost or rediscovered cards that were recently known of.

1951WheatiesPremium · November 19, 2023 1:58AM

@Estil said:
I was once again curious about this topic (I also find the subject of lost films fascinating as well) so if you guys don't mind I wanted to again bring this up and see if there are any lost or rediscovered cards that were recently known of.

Well, I just finished off (I think, anyway) a very tough set and it contains an enigma:

1946 Propagandas Montiel #90 Oswald Bluege

The curious case of the Oswald Bluege card and the empty spot

Despite there being a spot for the card in the album (lower right, above), I don’t believe the card exists and may never have been produced, for a variety of reasons, the biggest reason being there is a card - Gabby Hartnett - that has no spot in the album but clearly does exist. And it has an incorrect back (that of Bill Dickey), making it an error, too, and likely the last minute replacement for the scrapped Bluege card…

1946 Propagandas Montiel #56 Gabby Hartnett (top row center)

1946 Propagandas Montiel #56 Bill Dickey (top row center)

PS - For the record, every complete album I’ve ever seen has had the Gabby Hartnett card in Oswald Bluege’s spot.

1951WheatiesPremium · November 19, 2023 2:01AM

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
For what it’s worth to the thread, the 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos Set has 12 total cards.

While I have personally seen only 2 copies of the 12th card - Jack Kramer (below) - I have never handled one nor seen it offered for sale and PSA has graded 0 examples. (SGC has 1).

NEVERMIND.

Are there any LOST baseball cards (existed before, but today no surviving copies exist)?

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