Ok Guys, sixteen long days since the last 1808 Thread posting, so I guess I will have to do another one.
This is one of the missing die STATES: the 1808 O-107, R3.
This die marriage was struck using Obverse die 7 and Reverse die G. This was the only use of these dies.
Quick identifiers are:
(1) On this die marriage there is a break in the shape of an Adam's apple in the front of the neck. (2) There are two tines on the upper edge of the scroll between D and S. (3) There are four small center dots above the left wing, separated from the wing where it connects to the shield.
These are all easily seen in my photos without arrows or enlargements.
When I started to post the missing die STATE of the 1808 O-109, R3 on this Forum I had every intention of discussing, briefly, the die use that created this die state.
Once I reviewed the die cracks on my O-109, which told me my coin was REALLY an Intermediate Die State of the O-109 DM, I started looking at the die cracks on my O-109a and then I compared my coin to RotatedRainbow’s photos of his gorgeous O-109a on page 1 of this Forum. Quickly I began flipping through the O/P book.
Suddenly what I was doing turned into a die crack study.
I marked the die cracks, if described in the O/P book, on my two coins with RED ARROWS. I marked the common arcing die crack, present on both of my coins BUT NOT mentioned in the O/P book with GREEN ARROWS. It is tough to get a clear picture of this arcing die crack on my coins, but it can be clearly seen in RotatedRainbow’s coin on page 1 of this Thread.
Conclusions I could draw were:
(1) On my IDS O-109 the die cracks are not as pronounced as the identical die cracks found on my O-109a.
(2) My IDS O-109 has all, but three, of the additional die cracks that are reported to be on the O-109a. These two die cracks are - as written in O/P: the “one from edge left of date to base of 1 and 8, [and the other] from edge at this crack through star 1.” The third one is the one from edge through star 12 to join the last crack at the ribbon.
(3) The arcing die crack in the lower obverse left field (green arrows) is not mentioned in the O/P book under both die states. I tried to see it in the O/P book’s photo of the O-109a by holding a loupe over the picture. Is it in the photo? I am not sure.
(4) The reverse of my two coins has the same die crack. Visually this die crack is identical in severity on both coins. It runs from the tip of the upper olive leaves clockwise completely around the legend to AMER.
Questions that come to mind are:
(1) For the O-109 the O/P book uses a quantifier on the singular reported die crack. It says that MOST specimens have a fine die crack from edge to left of 1 to bust. Can it be logical that VEDS specimens do not have this die crack? Is there any hint of the arcing die crack in the field (the green arrows on my coins) on the EDS or VEDS of this DM? Why isn’t the “arcing die crack in the field” mentioned in O/P?
(2) I found it very curious that the curving die crack that bisects completely across the obverse on this Type One CHB is similar in shape (albeit not in the exact location) to the same curving, bisecting die crack on the Type Three CBH 1812 O-106a shown in that Forum Thread. I wonder how many other VLDS CHB’s also have a similar die crack.
(3) Regarding the curving obverse die crack that bisects the coin: Is it there because this is the initial point of contact as the die meets the planchet? Did this die begin to crack in the center (as on the coin) or on one of the edges?
Of my own volition, and without any prompting from interested posters I have decided to answer some of your questions.
1. In a previous post, I mentioned that I once owned a prooflike prime, certainly among the first few 109s coined. No clashes, no cracks, nuttin. The reverse was a mess, carried over from 108.
2. Parsley may not have mentioned this crack for two reasons; a) he may not have seen it on any of his coins b) remember that he isn't a die state enthusiast, so he isn't motivated to describe every single crack that may be seen.
3. This sort of crack was somewhat common on the early dates; far less common on later dates. I can't recall all that I've seen as I often forget where I park my car or which pocket my keys are in or whether it's okay to turn left or right on red.
4. The answer is yes; the crack began on either the center or one of the edges. If this answer doesn't satisfy you, be grateful that I don't drive the same streets as you while considering whether to turn left on red.
5. Die cracks like these may have been caused by uneven cooling of the die. Craig Sholley wrote about this. Check your email for the URL to his website to read some amazing articles. He and Fever sometimes cover the same subject matter.
Ok ED your friendly - and too damn enthusiastic....
We're here to help you, in understanding this cause and effect.
I agree with Slumlord 98. That the New Obverse Die was a clean one and mated with a middle (second use and clashed already) of the road reverse. But what else happened was this heavy obverse die clash blow, add that to the brittle state of the early dies as in (reheating & cooling problems). Then add to it the low relief profile of these earlier type CB dies. I think this more than fractured just the surface, but created damage within the die it self.
So I was studying another negative, viewing it this way still shows something you can't see with a loupe. I've come to the conclusion that the initial die clash buckled this obverse. You can see this in the impact buckling in the first picture.
At first I thought that the clash (scroll) at the date was the cause of the crack through the date. But it wasn't, it was caused by the two outside buckles in the right and left field area. When you look at an overlay of this, you see why! Left field is the scroll end, right field is the other scroll end and right wing. The date area is leveled of by the letters of the reverse die. The heavy crack at Stars 6 & 7 and the hair, are from the talons. The heavy die crack in the cap is the outside limit of the clash in the right field. The arching die crack is the edge of the impact.
Reviewing the reverse you notice the two impacted areas from the obverse. Now this coin is suppose to be a ELDS according to O/P, "... as in all evidence of milling (segments) is gone". But here's a funny thing ! After all that damage to the obverse, look how full the central details of the reverse have become!!
Your questions.. Questions that come to mind are:
(1) For the O-109 the O/P book uses a quantifier on the singular reported die crack. It says that MOST specimens have a fine die crack from edge to left of 1 to bust. Can it be logical that VEDS specimens do not have this die crack? Is there any hint of the arcing die crack in the field (the green arrows on my coins) on the EDS or VEDS of this DM? Why isn’t the “arching die crack in the field” mentioned in O/P?
*** Slumlord stated ownership of the O-109', no cracks no nothing. This would be prior to the die clash. In order for the die crack to be at the date, the arching crack would be there.
(2) I found it very curious that the curving die crack that bisects completely across the obverse on this Type One CBH is similar in shape (albeit not in the exact location) to the same curving, bisecting die crack on the Type Three CBH 1812 O-106a shown in that Forum Thread. I wonder how many other VLDS CHB’s also have a similar die crack.
***They still hadn't by 1812 worked the bugs out of their brittle dies, then still more injury the die clash problems.
(3) Regarding the curving obverse die crack that bisects the coin: Is it there because this is the initial point of contact as the die meets the planchet? Did this die begin to crack in the center (as on the coin) or on one of the edges?
Thank you to both Slumlord98 and SGFM for your comments.
I am still digesting them.
On SGFM's presentation, after seeing the relationship between the left end of the scroll to the arcing die crack in the lower left obverse's field, I quickly picked up my coins to check for rotated dies.
Checking both my 1808 O-109 and O-109a I see that both have about a 22 degree rotation (plus or minus a degree or two) of the reverse to the right. It is almost identical on both coins.
I placed the line on the Rota-Die dead center between the 80 on the obverse. Turning the Rota-Die to see the reverse of the coin, I see that the reverse is rotated counter clockwise from where it should have been. I interpet "dead bottom center" on the reverse to be a point halfway between the 0 & C of 50 C.
Because we are dealing now with overlays, there is a risk of confusing each other with "lefts" and "rights" and "clockwise" and etc. That is, everything becomes backwards and upside down, twisting and squeezing any hope of simple cognitive thought out of our brain cells.
...so I attempted to check this a different way and therefore word more clearly what I found:
The next thing I thought of doing was to pick up the coins and flip them over to see where the ends of the scroll are in relationship to the obverse. The findings are: The left end of the scroll is about 1/2 mm below the inner point of star 3 ("way above" the arcing die crack). The right end of the scroll as about a 1/2 mm to the right of where the die crack coming from the 2nd 8 enters the lower curl.
Ok. Steam is starting to come out my ears. Its time for me to go look at a different date and die marriage.
Geesh, I take a few hours away from CU and you guys start spouting off on all this technical stuff!
After a wonderful dinner of smoked pork chops, organic garlic bread, red potatoes, and a few tries of different Margarita recipes, I see this thread. You can imagine how much I learned from reading, and rereading your last four posts.
Edmerlr, SomeGuyFromMichigan, and Slumlord98, I promise to reread your last posts tomorrow. You guys are great!
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Mozin , Sounds like quite the party gonin on out your way .
I believe I'm going to be editing my pictures ! I had the little light go on in my head. That I need to adjust the die clash. But that will be later. Have a good time ! Mike
In April the following coin was posted on the wrong thread in error.
Per Mozin's request I am moving the coin to this thread.
Here is the 1808 O-105, R3.
This was one of the first Busties that I purchased for my collection. I was never 100% pleased with the coin because of the lighter toning and presence of a few faint hairlines in the field in front of the portrait. Therefore, a short while back I decided to upgrade the coin out of my collection.
When I took scans of the coin for a potential buyer, I noticed the faint double profile just below the neck. Referring to Souder's Bust Half Fever I did not find a posting for any 1808's with double profiles. I then e-mailed scans to Edgar Souders. He informed me that this was the first 1808 double profile that he has ever seen.
...so now the coin is a keeper and I am hanging on to it.
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. 8 is cut over 7. Top of B is unfinished. A crack shows starting below the date, across end of bust, through first six left stars, and to forecurl. Many other cracks normally show.
Reverse: Below stripe 6, the feathers are not joined to the shield, causing a blank space. A centering dot shows in the field left of crossbar 2. I is midway between T and E.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
This is one of my most interesting Bust Half Dollars.
Some diagnostics for 1808 O-108 R3:
Obverse: Stars 1, 7, and 8 all point between dentils. There is an extra curl just under “R”. Most of left base of “1” is missing.
Reverse: Centering dot shows in field above where eagle shoulder meets right corner of shield. Lower arrowheads are joined. “I” is centered under right side of “T”. (Reverse shared with O-109.)
Note: This specimen has a planchet void showing on obverse in front of bust, and also showing on reverse at first “S” in “STATES”.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
There is so much information on bust halves in this forum. I had a lovely VF 1808 O.102 that had most of the characteristics of a 102a. Put it on eBay with a BIN of $125, and it sold in literally 15 minutes. They are getting hard to find problem free in all grades.
I decided to recognized for my Bustie collecting, rather than my Classic Commemoratives. If this forum allowed Mac users to upload pictures for avatars, I would show one of my own Busties.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Thanks again, Dave. Very nice! I do like the L in LIBERTY on the 104, 106a and 108. I've always thought that this was interesting aspect to the design in those early years. zap
<< <i>Thanks again, Dave. Very nice! I do like the L in LIBERTY on the 104, 106a and 108. I've always thought that this was interesting aspect to the design in those early years. zap >>
I do too zap. Can find it on many of the incuse letters on some varieties. Look at the effect on my 1807 SS
<< <i>Thanks again, Dave. Very nice! I do like the L in LIBERTY on the 104, 106a and 108. I've always thought that this was interesting aspect to the design in those early years. zap >>
I do too zap. Can find it on many of the incuse letters on some varieties. Look at the effect on my 1807 SS >>
Looks like it is there in the LIBERTY to some extent on all the 07 and 08's that I own, you just can't see it very well on some of them...
Is there an 1807 page? I did a search and did not find one...
Comments
I only have two examples of the 1808 O-106 die marriage.
The first I will show is my lower grade O-106 with NO obverse or reverse die cracks:
Photos of the 1808 O-106, R2:
****
The second coin I have is an Intermediate die state of this O-106 die marriage.
It has the circular obverse die crack from left of 1 going in a semi circle across the bust emerging from the front of the cap to the milling.
I have never seen this coin with the die crack going through star 9 to join the first crack below the ear.
My O-106a IDS coin does NOT have the complete LDS reverse die crack through the 5 to the stem as described in the O/P book.
Photos of my 1808 O-106a, R2:
This is one of the missing die STATES: the 1808 O-107, R3.
This die marriage was struck using Obverse die 7 and Reverse die G. This was the only use of these dies.
Quick identifiers are:
(1) On this die marriage there is a break in the shape of an Adam's apple in the front of the neck.
(2) There are two tines on the upper edge of the scroll between D and S.
(3) There are four small center dots above the left wing, separated from the wing where it connects to the shield.
These are all easily seen in my photos without arrows or enlargements.
Photos of my 1808 O-107, R3:
Once I reviewed the die cracks on my O-109, which told me my coin was REALLY an Intermediate Die State of the O-109 DM, I started looking at the die cracks on my O-109a and then I compared my coin to RotatedRainbow’s photos of his gorgeous O-109a on page 1 of this Forum. Quickly I began flipping through the O/P book.
Suddenly what I was doing turned into a die crack study.
I marked the die cracks, if described in the O/P book, on my two coins with RED ARROWS. I marked the common arcing die crack, present on both of my coins BUT NOT mentioned in the O/P book with GREEN ARROWS. It is tough to get a clear picture of this arcing die crack on my coins, but it can be clearly seen in RotatedRainbow’s coin on page 1 of this Thread.
Conclusions I could draw were:
(1) On my IDS O-109 the die cracks are not as pronounced as the identical die cracks found on my O-109a.
(2) My IDS O-109 has all, but three, of the additional die cracks that are reported to be on the O-109a. These two die cracks are - as written in O/P: the “one from edge left of date to base of 1 and 8, [and the other] from edge at this crack through star 1.” The third one is the one from edge through star 12 to join the last crack at the ribbon.
(3) The arcing die crack in the lower obverse left field (green arrows) is not mentioned in the O/P book under both die states. I tried to see it in the O/P book’s photo of the O-109a by holding a loupe over the picture. Is it in the photo? I am not sure.
(4) The reverse of my two coins has the same die crack. Visually this die crack is identical in severity on both coins. It runs from the tip of the upper olive leaves clockwise completely around the legend to AMER.
Questions that come to mind are:
(1) For the O-109 the O/P book uses a quantifier on the singular reported die crack. It says that MOST specimens have a fine die crack from edge to left of 1 to bust. Can it be logical that VEDS specimens do not have this die crack? Is there any hint of the arcing die crack in the field (the green arrows on my coins) on the EDS or VEDS of this DM? Why isn’t the “arcing die crack in the field” mentioned in O/P?
(2) I found it very curious that the curving die crack that bisects completely across the obverse on this Type One CHB is similar in shape (albeit not in the exact location) to the same curving, bisecting die crack on the Type Three CBH 1812 O-106a shown in that Forum Thread. I wonder how many other VLDS CHB’s also have a similar die crack.
(3) Regarding the curving obverse die crack that bisects the coin: Is it there because this is the initial point of contact as the die meets the planchet? Did this die begin to crack in the center (as on the coin) or on one of the edges?
Photos of my IDS 1808 O-109, R3:
*****************
Photos of my 1808 O-109a, R3:
Of my own volition, and without any prompting from interested posters
1. In a previous post, I mentioned that I once owned a prooflike prime, certainly among the first few 109s coined. No clashes, no cracks, nuttin. The reverse was a mess, carried over from 108.
2. Parsley may not have mentioned this crack for two reasons; a) he may not have seen it on any of his coins b) remember that he isn't a die state enthusiast, so he isn't motivated to describe every single crack that may be seen.
3. This sort of crack was somewhat common on the early dates; far less common on later dates. I can't recall all that I've seen as I often forget where I park my car or which pocket my keys are in or whether it's okay to turn left or right on red.
4. The answer is yes; the crack began on either the center or one of the edges. If this answer doesn't satisfy you, be grateful that I don't drive the same streets as you while considering whether to turn left on red.
5. Die cracks like these may have been caused by uneven cooling of the die. Craig Sholley wrote about this. Check your email for the URL to his website to read some amazing articles. He and Fever sometimes cover the same subject matter.
We're here to help you, in understanding this cause and effect.
I agree with Slumlord 98.
That the New Obverse Die was a clean one and mated with a middle (second use and clashed already) of the road reverse.
But what else happened was this heavy obverse die clash blow, add that to the brittle state of
the early dies as in (reheating & cooling problems).
Then add to it the low relief profile of these earlier type CB dies.
I think this more than fractured just the surface, but created damage within the die it self.
So I was studying another negative, viewing it this way still shows something
you can't see with a loupe.
I've come to the conclusion that the initial die clash buckled this obverse.
You can see this in the impact buckling in the first picture.
At first I thought that the clash (scroll) at the date was the cause of the crack through the date.
But it wasn't, it was caused by the two outside buckles in the right and left field area.
When you look at an overlay of this, you see why!
Left field is the scroll end, right field is the other scroll end and right wing.
The date area is leveled of by the letters of the reverse die.
The heavy crack at Stars 6 & 7 and the hair, are from the talons.
The heavy die crack in the cap is the outside limit of the clash in the right field.
The arching die crack is the edge of the impact.
Reviewing the reverse you notice the two impacted areas from the obverse.
Now this coin is suppose to be a ELDS according to O/P,
"... as in all evidence of milling (segments) is gone".
But here's a funny thing !
After all that damage to the obverse, look how full the central details of the reverse have become!!
Your questions..
Questions that come to mind are:
(1) For the O-109 the O/P book uses a quantifier on the singular reported die crack. It says that MOST specimens have a fine die crack from edge to left of 1 to bust. Can it be logical that VEDS specimens do not have this die crack? Is there any hint of the arcing die crack in the field (the green arrows on my coins) on the EDS or VEDS of this DM? Why isn’t the “arching die crack in the field” mentioned in O/P?
*** Slumlord stated ownership of the O-109', no cracks no nothing. This would be prior to the die clash.
In order for the die crack to be at the date, the arching crack would be there.
(2) I found it very curious that the curving die crack that bisects completely across the obverse on this Type One CBH is similar in shape (albeit not in the exact location) to the same curving, bisecting die crack on the Type Three CBH 1812 O-106a shown in that Forum Thread. I wonder how many other VLDS CHB’s also have a similar die crack.
***They still hadn't by 1812 worked the bugs out of their brittle dies, then still more injury the die clash problems.
(3) Regarding the curving obverse die crack that bisects the coin: Is it there because this is the initial point of contact as the die meets the planchet? Did this die begin to crack in the center (as on the coin) or on one of the edges?
I covered that one in the impact picture.
Thanks Ed
Mike
I am still digesting them.
On SGFM's presentation, after seeing the relationship between the left end of the scroll to the arcing die crack in the lower left obverse's field, I quickly picked up my coins to check for rotated dies.
Checking both my 1808 O-109 and O-109a I see that both have about a 22 degree rotation (plus or minus a degree or two) of the reverse to the right. It is almost identical on both coins.
I placed the line on the Rota-Die dead center between the 80 on the obverse. Turning the Rota-Die to see the reverse of the coin, I see that the reverse is rotated counter clockwise from where it should have been. I interpet "dead bottom center" on the reverse to be a point halfway between the 0 & C of 50 C.
Because we are dealing now with overlays, there is a risk of confusing each other with "lefts" and "rights" and "clockwise" and etc. That is, everything becomes backwards and upside down, twisting and squeezing any hope of simple cognitive thought out of our brain cells.
...so I attempted to check this a different way and therefore word more clearly what I found:
The next thing I thought of doing was to pick up the coins and flip them over to see where the ends of the scroll are in relationship to the obverse. The findings are: The left end of the scroll is about 1/2 mm below the inner point of star 3 ("way above" the arcing die crack). The right end of the scroll as about a 1/2 mm to the right of where the die crack coming from the 2nd 8 enters the lower curl.
Ok. Steam is starting to come out my ears. Its time for me to go look at a different date and die marriage.
Thank you again to both of you,
Ed
After a wonderful dinner of smoked pork chops, organic garlic bread, red potatoes, and a few tries of different Margarita recipes, I see this thread. You can imagine how much I learned from reading, and rereading your last four posts.
Edmerlr, SomeGuyFromMichigan, and Slumlord98, I promise to reread your last posts tomorrow. You guys are great!
I believe I'm going to be editing my pictures !
I had the little light go on in my head.
That I need to adjust the die clash.
But that will be later.
Have a good time !
Mike
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
Per Mozin's request I am moving the coin to this thread.
Here is the 1808 O-105, R3.
This was one of the first Busties that I purchased for my collection. I was never 100% pleased with the coin because of the lighter toning and presence of a few faint hairlines in the field in front of the portrait. Therefore, a short while back I decided to upgrade the coin out of my collection.
When I took scans of the coin for a potential buyer, I noticed the faint double profile just below the neck. Referring to Souder's Bust Half Fever I did not find a posting for any 1808's with double profiles. I then e-mailed scans to Edgar Souders. He informed me that this was the first 1808 double profile that he has ever seen.
...so now the coin is a keeper and I am hanging on to it.
Per Mozin's request I am moving the coin to this thread.
Photos of the 1808 O-108, R3
Per Mozin's request I am moving the coin to this thread.
Photos of the 1808 O-108a, R3
Per Mozin's request I am moving the coin to this thread.
Photos of the 1808 O-110, R5. ex Charleton Meyers collection
Per Mozin's request I am moving the coin to this thread.
Photos of the 1808 O-110a, R4+
Those are some neat 1808s, my second favorite year.
Some diagnostics for 1808/7 O-101 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. 8 is cut over 7. Top of B is unfinished. A crack shows starting below the date, across end of bust, through first six left stars, and to forecurl. Many other cracks normally show.
Reverse: Below stripe 6, the feathers are not joined to the shield, causing a blank space. A centering dot shows in the field left of crossbar 2. I is midway between T and E.
Crusty overdate, it's amazing this die pair lasted so long...
Some diagnostics for 1808 O-108 R3:
Obverse: Stars 1, 7, and 8 all point between dentils. There is an extra curl just under “R”. Most of left base of “1” is missing.
Reverse: Centering dot shows in field above where eagle shoulder meets right corner of shield. Lower arrowheads are joined. “I” is centered under right side of “T”. (Reverse shared with O-109.)
Note: This specimen has a planchet void showing on obverse in front of bust, and also showing on reverse at first “S” in “STATES”.
Senior Numismatist
Legend Rare Coin Auctions
Welcome to our CU Lettered Edge Capped Bust Half Dollar series. Your $125 sale of the 1808 VF sounds like the going rate.
The old girl is showing some extra neck skin.
Mozin...now why'd you have to go and change your avatar... i think i know people by their avatars as much as by their names, i hate avatar upload day
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Gorgeous!
Thank you. Probably the last coin I will ever part with.
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
<< <i>Beautiful Bustie, PCGS 55 any day. >>
50 Actually
1808 O-104
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
zap
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
Then there is this, posted not too long ago in its own thread:
1808 O-109a
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
Just sayin.
Great stuff Dave.
<< <i>Thanks again, Dave. Very nice! I do like the L in LIBERTY on the 104, 106a and 108. I've always thought that this was interesting aspect to the design in those early years.
zap >>
I do too zap.
Can find it on many of the incuse letters on some varieties.
Look at the effect on my 1807 SS
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks again, Dave. Very nice! I do like the L in LIBERTY on the 104, 106a and 108. I've always thought that this was interesting aspect to the design in those early years.
zap >>
I do too zap.
Can find it on many of the incuse letters on some varieties.
Look at the effect on my 1807 SS
>>
Looks like it is there in the LIBERTY to some extent on all the 07 and 08's that I own, you just can't see it very well on some of them...
Is there an 1807 page? I did a search and did not find one...
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
PCGS XF40 1808/7