Seated Half Dollars...will they EVER have their day?

coinlieutenant

In the last few years, numerous series, including bust halves, bust dollars, key dates, and other series have seen drastic increases in price. Many of these coins...including bust dollars are, relatively, common compared to seated half dollars...yet they have not seen drastic changes in greysheet or other price guides.

Arguements have been made, and perhaps rightly so, that seated half dollars represent too much of a challenge to collect (long series, lots of stoppers etc), therefore, they will never have the demand that its common cousin the bust half has.

Granted, any seated half collector, really any seated coinage collector, will admit that price guides are generally off on this series...they are selling for stronger money that 3 years ago...and buys near price guides are nearly non existant. However, they still have not seen the drastic increases discussed above.

Will this series eventually see increases in prices? If they do, what grades and dates do you speculate will rise the most and why?

John

coindeuce

<< <i>In the last few years, numerous series, including bust halves, bust dollars, key dates, and other series have seen drastic increases in price. Many of these coins...including bust dollars are, relatively, common compared to seated half dollars...yet they have not seen drastic changes in greysheet or other price guides.

Arguements have been made, and perhaps rightly so, that seated half dollars represent too much of a challenge to collect (long series, lots of stoppers etc), therefore, they will never have the demand that its common cousin the bust half has.

Granted, any seated half collector, really any seated coinage collector, will admit that price guides are generally off on this series...they are selling for stronger money that 3 years ago...and buys near price guides are nearly non existant. However, they still have not seen the drastic increases discussed above.

Will this series eventually see increases in prices? If they do, what grades and dates do you speculate will rise the most and why?

John >>


I expect that all of the No Motto issues will dramatically increase short term, and that any Seated half with a survival or graded pop. of less than 200 will follow. Just purchased an 1878 PCGS PR-66 w/monster original tone, and I can assure you it wasn't obtained at or near sheet.

DUIGUY

<Just purchased an 1878 PCGS PR-66 w/monster original tone, and I can assure you it wasn't obtained at or near sheet. >


Love to see a pic of that !

NumisOxide

I think the 1845 & 1862 Philadelphia Mint halves will rise even more in value due to their scarcity.

Lakesammman

There are too many that all look the same - sorry, JMHO.

coinlieutenant

Spoken like a true flyer fan with ADD.

RickMilauskas

Aren't the 1880's "no-brainers?"

Their mintages are miniscule.

Proofs should too...but you never know.

291fifth

Interest in seated half dollars is killed by the presence of a few ultra-expensive coins such as the 1878-S. These coins cause collectors to lose interest in the series when it finally sinks in that they can't afford them and should have never have started the series to begin with.

This situation isn't going to change.

Dennis88

Lately, when I got interested in seated coinage and started buying seated half dimes (just that right now although I'm sure that other denominations will follow one day) I noticed that the prices over the last 5 years staid relatively stable in comparison with other coin series, like Morgan Dollars or the previously mentioned early halves.

I believe that the explenation for both morgan dollars and early halves are simple and when you can count 1 + 1 you will soon come to the fact why seated coins are not as popular right now as one might expect. Morgan dollars are large, historic and the set is relativey available in high grade with just a few toppers. Add to that the immense set registry activity and you see why the market for high grade, PCGS/NGC (but mostly PCGS) morgan dollars is so unbelievabe strong.

Although the set registry is by far not so popular for early halves and most collectors appreciate them raw these coins are still heavily collected. The reason is the possibility to build a die variety collection, attributed by Overton numbers for a relatively low cost with many coins available in the market place. Because of this, these coins have stayed in demand for at least the last 25 years and probably much, much longer.

Now let's hop back to seated coinage. Is the set of any denomination completable and popular with set registry collectors?? Well with the exception of the seated half dimes, which will still take lot's of time and money to complete even without the 1870-S, none of it is easily completable within a given amount of time. But because of their small size the seated half dimes never got really popular with the collecting public. Varieties? Well they are hardly collected for these later dated coins, as the differences in dies are very small and not easily seen without 10x magnification. Thanks to the Seated Dime web book, collecting seated dime varieties has gotten somewhat more popular, but not much.

So here we are. It is IMHO just a combination of popularity in combanition with the possibilities of completing (registry) sets within a given amount of time with a given amount of money. I think that the trend is and will even more, that "small" sets will get more popular, but there are so many possibilities that one must doubt any of these will ever stand out as "hot". Of course, as with other coin series high grade type coins and outstanding proof coins will stay in demand, at least in this market. But for the others I don't see much difference in the nearby future.

Dennis

EarlyBustQuarterGuy

John,

You keep collecting those Liberty Seated Halves. I have no doubt they will indeed get the recognition they deserve. There are so many undervalued dates it's not even funny. 55-s is overvalued in my opinion, but the 56-s, 57-s, 66-s no motto, 64-s, 65-s, 70-s, 71-s etc. the list goes on. I collected this series for several years, but gave up on completing the series because I just couldn't find the original specimens I wanted. I basically stick to the undervalued type coins when I can find them.

Bill

Cocoinut

To the average collector, Seated Halves are just a type coin. It's too expensive and time-consuming to assemble a complete set. The pre-1852 dates are all rare in mint state, and their prices reflect this, but there are enough No Motto coins from the 1856-1865 era to satisfy the demand for that type to prevent the early dates from reaching their potential. In the With Motto years, common dates, scarcer dates that sell for a small premium, and the key dates will always have a market, as will any date that is breath-takingly beautiful. Don't hold your breath waiting for the series to become as popular as Bust Halves - it just isn't going to happen.

Speculating on which will perform best, I would stick with the more common dates in MS64 and above, but they must have killer eye appeal.

Jim

coinlieutenant

Dennis,

I agree that the challenge of competing/completing a registry set does deter collectors and the registry is a major reason for the upswing in many market areas.

I have always been a fan of modifying sets that are too difficult to complete...perhaps PCGS could do the same thing. One example could be a decade and mm set, one coin from each mint and decade. The set would be challenging....but not impossible. It would stimulate seated collecting and add competition to sets where it seems none really exists.

John

Cladiator

They'll skyrocket in price about 2 weeks after I start collecting them.

longtimecollector

OK......... You guys are starting to take it too far............

You CAN collect this series.............

It DOES NOT have to be in plastic............

It DOES NOT have to be a registry set............

Are you collecting for your own self, or to compete in the registry ????????

Aside from proving who has the deepest pockets, what purpose does the (bow head now) "Registry" serve......... ????????

Collect for the ENJOYMENT.......... Registry be damned !!!!!!!

ziggy29

<< <i>OK......... You guys are starting to take it too far............

You CAN collect this series............. >>

Easy for you to say. You already have a '78-S.

coinlieutenant

LTC,

I am not saying that you have to collect via the registry...I am saying that perhaps the registry with some changes would add to the number of collectors of seated coinage.

John

longtimecollector

Speaking as a collector here, and not a dealer........... I think that LESS emphasis on the "Registry" would be better for collectors......... The "registry" deludes people to believe that only coins in PCGS plastic have ANY value......... Not true.......... The "Registry" has changed the way SOME people collect......... It, (The Registry) gives collectors a way to compete, albeit only in reality with their checkbooks. I don't ever recall (yes , I'm that old) prior to the registry, or prior to TPG encapsulation anyone EVER having a coin "competition"........ The Registry is a recent invention designed to keep a steady supply of coins in the "submission" stream. It is marketing GENIUS, but it takes its toll on other collecting areas. I've never competed in the "registry", and I never will........ I have had coins slabbed for authentication and variety attribution, but I don't worry / sweat the 1-2 point upgrades. I probably leave some money on the table because of this, but I believe the marketplace will determine the value of a coin on its' own merits first, and the plastic second. If you dis-agree, you are probably more prone to be a "Registry" collector......... and there's nothing wrong with that......... But the "Registry" collectors seem not to acknowledge the existance of this hobby outside of PCGS plastic.

tradedollarnut

<< <i>Speaking as a collector here, and not a dealer........... I think that LESS emphasis on the "Registry" would be better for collectors......... The "registry" deludes people to believe that only coins in PCGS plastic have ANY value......... Not true.......... The "Registry" has changed the way SOME people collect......... It, (The Registry) gives collectors a way to compete, albeit only in reality with their checkbooks. I don't ever recall (yes , I'm that old) prior to the registry, or prior to TPG encapsulation anyone EVER having a coin "competition"........ The Registry is a recent invention designed to keep a steady supply of coins in the "submission" stream. It is marketing GENIUS, but it takes its toll on other collecting areas. I've never competed in the "registry", and I never will........ I have had coins slabbed for authentication and variety attribution, but I don't worry / sweat the 1-2 point upgrades. I probably leave some money on the table because of this, but I believe the marketplace will determine the value of a coin on its' own merits first, and the plastic second. If you dis-agree, you are probably more prone to be a "Registry" collector......... and there's nothing wrong with that......... But the "Registry" collectors seem not to acknowledge the existance of this hobby outside of PCGS plastic. >>



Well said. I don't agree with all of it, but well said.

coinlieutenant

LTC,

I agree (with some of what you say) as well....however, the registry is NOT going away...might as well use it in a positive manner. It does have some good qualities regardless if the original intent was less than altruistic.

J

ziggy29

<< <i>I agree (with some of what you say) as well....however, the registry is NOT going away...might as well use it in a positive manner. It does have some good qualities regardless if the original intent was less than altruistic. >>

The registry set concept can be fun. I have a couple of type sets in the registry across the street. It will never be even close to "finest known," but I think it's cool to just fill the slots with coins you like and work for your collecting interests.

I would agree, though, that it was designed to create a slavish devotion to slabs and to maximizing "registry points," but it doesn't have to be USED that way. IMO, it's more fun if you don't. Collecting should be a passion but not an obsession.

longtimecollector

OK........ Let's take it back to Seated Halves......... How do you use the Registry to promote / create collectors of Seated Halves ????? Let's say your 55-S has a scratch........ or your 73 NA Open 3 has "environmental" damage........ In a Registry arena, they're WORTHLESS !!!!!!!! In reality, there's a lot of folks that would love to have them ....... Seated coinage did its job well....... It went into circulation, and it STAYED there for many years. The amount of mint state seated coinage available is miniscule compared to the amout produced, and circulated coins got worn, damaged, lost and later dug up, scratched, rims filed, and what they were designed to do......... SPENT !!!!!

How can the Registry be used to promote collecting in "Classic" series in less than mint state condition ?????

coinlieutenant

LTC,

Dont get so upset!!
Here are my points in my thought process...

#1. The registry has spawned many new collectors.

#2. The current registry sets are overwhelming to many collectors since they are so difficult to complete.

#3. Said collectors then decide to collect something easier since they WANT to do the registry

#4. Seated coinage suffers from a demand standpoint because of above points.

#5. Perhaps making a more managable seated collection on the registry as proposed above would bring more collectors into seated coinage.

Personally the registry means nothing to me...and means less than when it first came out. I dont have a single "competing" set...but I still like the ability to display coins and look at them outside the safety deposit box.

John

longtimecollector

Not upset at all........ Just marveling at how the lambs suck down the Kool-Aid without ever trying anything else

RYK

In a thread about two years ago, I proposed a seated coin type set as a set for the Registry. DH saw the post and replied that it was a great idea and that PCGS would offer it. They have not.

Not that the Registry is the be-all and end-all of collecting coins, it is an entry avenue for some collectors. I still think that a seated coin type set registry might get a few more people interested in seated coins and perhaps a fraction of those will move on to a date set in the denomination of their choice. It certainly could not help but raise the profile of seated coins.

As for the OP, I think that seated halves are very collectible, and you do not have to collect the whole series. Date sets (one coin per date), branch mint sets, No Motto or With Motto sets, and seated half type sets are all reasonable ways to approach the series without going after the whole enchilada.

Cladiator

<< <i>In a thread about two years ago, I proposed a seated coin type set as a set for the Registry. DH saw the post and replied that it was a great idea and that PCGS would offer it. They have not. >>

I remember that thread.

tradedollarnut

That was an excellent idea.

RYK

Here's the thread.

TDN,

You may have some influence now that you are on the PCGS Board of Experts™.

I will commit to such a PCGS registry set if you can make it happen.

Edit: And for those of us that are bigger on ideas than we are in the wallet, let's leave out the Gobs.

longtimecollector

RYK......... No offense meant here, but DON'T YOU GET IT ??????? Much / Most of the mint-state Seated is already holdered......... No revenue generated there......... There's more money in slabbing 2006 nickels than there is in slabbing 1878 halves

We've had this discussion before....... It's PCGS's field, AND their ball..........

RYK

<< <i>RYK......... No offense meant here, but DON'T YOU GET IT ??????? Much / Most of the mint-state Seated is already holdered......... No revenue generated there......... There's more money in slabbing 2006 nickels than there is in slabbing 1878 halves

We've had this discussion before....... It's PCGS's field, AND their ball.......... >>



In that case, how about a registry set of uncirculated bullion type, all metals, with the "W" mintmark.

longtimecollector

<< <i>In that case, how about a registry set of uncirculated bullion type, all metals, with the "W" mintmark. >>



If that DOESN'T exist yet, I'm suprised........ If not, I'm sure it's in the works !!!!!! And, it'll come to fruition LONG before the Seated Type Set idea.

It's ALL about feeding the submission stream

Ask yourself this......... Would PCGS or ANY other TPG sponsor / host a "Registry" if they weren't in the slabbing business ????? This isn't about the joy of collecting, it's about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

RYK

<< <i>

<< <i>In that case, how about a registry set of uncirculated bullion type, all metals, with the "W" mintmark. >>



If that DOESN'T exist yet, I'm suprised........ If not, I'm sure it's in the works !!!!!! And, it'll come to fruition LONG before the Seated Type Set idea.

It's ALL about feeding the submission stream >>



I am not yet that cynical. Granted, I was sipping the free Kool-Aid at the PCGS-CoinFacts luncheon at FUN, but I thought that HRH was pretty sincere about wanting to do what's good for the hobby. It may not make much additional revenue for PCGS, but it really doesn't cost anything to add a new set to the registry.

mgoodm3

they are very daunting sets to collect. very long and many rarities. The half dimes are probably the most approachable and there seem to be quite a few collectors of that series.

coinlieutenant

Lots are still waiting on foreign registries as well...I know that I am. There is lots of slabbing to be done in that arena...but still no sets.

While I dont completely disagree with your arguement related to revenue generation, I also dont think it is ALL about that...

J

longtimecollector

<< <i>but it really doesn't cost anything to add a new set to the registry. >>



About the same as the cost of running the OF





<< <i>I also dont think it is ALL about that... >>



Sun pretty strong in Hawaii today ?????

coinlieutenant

Actually quite nice thank you...partly sunny and 80. Going to the pool for a bday party for the daughter.

I got her a seated half.

keets

price is always relative to demand and to demand only. stagnant pricing means stagnant demand or at least not enough demand to cause bids for the same grade coin to go up so that the pricing structure changes. this series will probably mimic many others where the highest graded coins will always be in demand, the mid-grade coins will be reasonable and the lesser graded items will seem like a bargain. i think another reply said more than you'd like to hear when he stated simply that too many of them look alike. personally, i find the design rather uninspired and used for too long of a period and on too many denominations. it's a good type design but for me at least, not anything i'd ever consider collecting past that unless it was for a variety set such as Motto/No Motto/Arrows/Arrows and Rays and so on.

maybe a quick summary of my logic is that the coins which i'd spend money on aren't attractive enough to my eye(all look similar) and the special ones are just too expensive for me to spend that kind of money on with a design i don't particularly like.

prenum

RYK - you are on to something! The right kind of registry sets would give this series a real boost.

I've always thought that the only reason seated coins are so undervalued is because there are so many dates & mm to put together a complete set. I know of only one collector who is attempting a complete certified set.

There are so many pop 5 or less halves that can be bought for less than $3/$4k. It amazes me that they are so cheap!

If a handfull of registery sets were attempted the valuation numbers could change very dramatically!

tradedollarnut

BJ says it's on her list but might take a couple of months.

Sunnywood

I disagree with the cynicism regarding the Registry. It is a WONDERFUL addition to the hobby. And I think in the long run, it will do wonders for many series. As more popularly collected series become crowded with registrants, it will naturally encourage more collectors to seek out series that have been left behind ... in some cases, left behind for decades. Before the Registry came along, a series like MS three cent nickels would have been lucky to have a high end date collector come along once every five or ten years. That has all changed, and will continue to change. Neglected series, both classic and modern, will draw more attention as the system finds its equilibrium.

Best,
Sunnywood

scher

I think seated halves are a deal and will some day get the attention..I recently purchased an 1845 proof 63 with a mintage of 5 for a price that seems crazy low to me for the rarity factor..there are many dates through out the series where very attractive original looking high grade coins can be had for under 10k and lots and lots of real nice coins in the 2k to 5k range..
Bruce Scher

nankraut

sorry...I screwed up here!

nankraut

<< <i>OK......... You guys are starting to take it too far............

You CAN collect this series.............

It DOES NOT have to be in plastic............

It DOES NOT have to be a registry set............

Are you collecting for your own self, or to compete in the registry ????????

Aside from proving who has the deepest pockets, what purpose does the (bow head now) "Registry" serve......... ????????

Collect for the ENJOYMENT.......... Registry be damned !!!!!!! >>



I couldn't have said it better myself.

RichieURich

Seated Halves is a difficult series to collect, for several reasons. First, there is a difficult and expensive rarity in the date and mintmark set - - the 1878-S. There are also a lot of coins, around 120, in the "basic" set. Because of the lack of availability of certain coins in certain grades, and the cost of some high grade coins, it is difficult if not impossible to assemble a set that is all in the same or similar grades. There are several coins that are obtainable damaged or cleaned which will keep them out of a PCGS holder. Not to mention the so-called "non-collectibles" such as the 1842 small date with small letters reverse, the 1853-O No Arrows, and the 1866 No Motto. If you don't want to collect a full set but want a mini-set with a big challenge, try the 1848 through 1852 Philadelphia halves in VG or Fine, or the 1860 through 1865 Philadelphia halves in VF, or the 1879 through 1890 halves in any matched circulated grade. I would guess that regardless of your budget, you couldn't complete any of these sets at any big show, at least not at any shows I've attended. But if it wasn't a challenge, why do it?

tradedollarnut

Part of the problem [I encountered this to an extent with the seated dollars] with collecting such a large and old set is the varying degrees of quality available. Putting an MS67 or MS68 next to an MS61 [which might be the finest known], just doesn't make a good looking set.

clw54

It's a bit of a challenge to complete a Carson City set. There aren't any stoppers, but there aren't many out there either. Most dealers don't have any at all. The good part is that it's affordable.

RYK

I do not want to belabor the point, but there are many interesting and challenging subsets within seated halves which are very collectible.

Take New Orleans seated halves, the basic set containing 21 issues without varieties:

For the high-end collector, try MS-63/64 and above (when available), in the $2500-9000 range.

A mid-range collector might go for AU-58's, all coins but two are in the $400-500 range, and the remaining to are under $2000.

A collector on a budget can collect XF-40 examples, with most coins around $100 or so, and still have an interesting, historic, and challenging set.

One shortcoming of the registry (and the imagination of collectors, in general) may be that it does not define enough collectible sets that may be worth pursuing, particularly in the long 19th century seated silver and coronet gold series.

seateddime

the 78S is bringing stupid money, the 70, 74 and 78cc are not shabby and the 55s will set you back a few bucks. The real sleeper set are the Dollars, they are rare

coinlieutenant

EXACTLY what Robert said.

Try doing an original O mint set in Fine or Very Fine....even that would probably take a couple of years to find choice for the grade coins...

roadrunner

RYK said it. Collect a subset of the seated series. While a complete set is beyond most anyone's means if you want every know date, there is no problem with collecting a certain mint, certain types, or just underrated coins. I gave up a long time ago on any designs in completing a series set: too many coins, too many common ones, etc. In the end, all I really wanted where the best dates or underrated ones. You can pick any grade range you want and work from there. S mints in most all the series are the bomb. O mints are not bad too. Try a short 25c set from 1856 to 1860 in any grade from XF on up. I also love the short S mint quarter set from 1866 to 1872. The Philly coins are more available but sometimes very low mintage. No, the low mintage of the 1880 half belies it's availability in unc. It's somewhat available in circ as is the 1879. I prefer to buy mint marks so the proofs don't muck up the pops.

The seated series on better dates with low pops or finest known uncs has gone gangbusters the past 5-10 years. I can only imagine that given time, the series will catch on even moreso in all grades. It my wildest dreams in 1990 did I ever think circ dates would gain so much considering they moved very slowly from 1975 to 1990.
Who ever thought bust dollars, Lincoln Cents, or Wash quarters would take off after 1990?

Just this past week I noted with pleasure that a gem 1871-s 50c moved from $5250 to $6500 on the CDN. Gee, did one just sell for that price? I'm not aware of it but there you go. It's sort of comical since I paid $5750 for mine in 2002 and felt it was underpriced back then. It was the first one I had ever seen or held in my hand in 25 years of looking. Same for it's sisters the 70-s and 72-s. If not for 2 gem 72-s halves from Eliasberg, that date would be close to unachievable finer than MS64. And these dates are tough in nice VF-AU as well. And there are many more to plunk your money down on. You don't have to buy a 78-s. The CDN price guide has some very low prices for much of the seated series (and some that are way too high). Down the road varieties will only become more popular as well.

Seated dimes and quarters have been doing very well recently, dollars too, while halves have lagged. Many of the dates are more buyable and findable. But I think it's only a matter of time before the halves pick up...even if the price guides don't reflect it. The 1841 half is a $10-15K+ coin in true gem, yet CDN lists for $6K or something. While there are some sitting in 65 holders I'd be surprised if they are of old time gem quality. Hence today's CDN sort of represents in many cases a conserved, or upgraded coin.
And those are the ones you should not be hanging on to imo.

roadrunner

Catbert

ALERT! OLD THREAD RESURRECTION!

I believe Seated Liberty Half Dollars are having their day and thus answering the question raised in 2007. I'm finding it difficult to find quality circulated pieces that meet my eye appeal standards and the ones that do, are getting very expensive to acquire. It appears the guides are not keeping up. Fortin's auction results are strong.

Also, not many are participating in the registry sets related to halves.

What are your thoughts on the current market? Why the renewed interest? Especially would like to hear from some of these half and/or seated collectors (of course all are welcome to comment):

@JBN
@seatedlib3991
@ElmerFusterpuck
@Barberian
@roadrunner
@coinlieutenant
@Dennis88
@Hinkle
@sedulous
@LJenkins11

Catbert

There are only around 500 members in the Seated Liberty Collector's Club.