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1813 is the twenty-third informative picture thread covering the Capped Bust Half Dollar series. Sho
mozin
Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
General guidelines:
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
Link to all prior year threads
YOU CAN POST TO THESE THREADS ANYTIME...IT IS NEVER TOO LATE!!!
PLEASE CONTRIBUTE: Post Bust Half pictures with or without descriptions, or just make a comment indicating an interest. ALL INPUT IS MUCH APPRECIATED.
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1813 CAPPED BUST HALF DOLLARS
Mintage of 1,241,903 places 1813 7th lowest of the 29 mint years. No other silver coins were mint produced in 1813. There were 7 obverse and 8 reverse dies used for mint year 1813, forming 10 marriages, none rare.
Typical strike for 1813 is weak to good, but mostly weak. 1813 is the year most likely to show clash marks, and often they will be heavy multiple clash marks. Examples of early die states, without any clashes, are very hard to find for certain 1813 varieties.
Metal flow weakness shows most frequently at the coin center. On the obverse, Miss Liberty’s hair curl above the ear, hair by ribbon ends, and drapery clasp show the weakness best. On the reverse, it would be the entire junction where the left wing joins to the eagle’s body. On 1807 examples the entire left wing is often weak. On 1810 examples, certain marriages show hardly any left wing feathers.
Some of the varieties show flat stars, likely caused by the stars being punched too deep in the die. Even extra pressure would not have filled metal into those too deep holes.
In the early years, Bust Half Dollars often show many die cracks. This is likely due to defective steel, or improper hardening techniques. Later years cracking is simply caused by overworking the dies. The study of Bust Half Dollar die cracks has been extensive, and there is much more left for study. Some Bust Half Dollar collectors accumulate dozens of certain marriages, just so they can study the die crack progression.
Some thoughts about cracks:
1) Improper die preparation: These cracks usually go from border to device, like dentil to Miss Liberty.
2) Bad or weakened metal: Usually these cracks run through the SMALL areas that were hand punched, like the stars, date, reverse letters, arrowheads, olive branch, and leaves.
3) Clashed dies: The stronger die causes the weaker die to get shatter cracks.
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Some diagnostics for 50 over inverted UNI 1813 O-101 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. Well-centered date has a broad “8”, and “81” is closer than “18” or “13”. Star 7 points between dentils, and to center of curl. (Obverse shared with O-102.)
Reverse: John Reich started “UNI” about 90 degrees around too soon, shows under “50C”. It is likely the error was caused because the die was upside down, with eagle’s feet at the top. Under magnification, Reich could easily have mistaken the lower arrowhead, which was then at the top, for the left wing tip. Reich’s eyesight was known to be failing him by 1813. “I” centered under right side of “T”.
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For 50 over inverted UNI 1813 O-101a R4:
Obverse: Weak milling.
Reverse: Due to a clash, the working die was lapped to remove the clash marks, and also the remains of the “UNI” that remained after the initial error was corrected. This later effort weakened the olive stem, and part of the claw, but parts of the “UNI” still can be seen. Weak milling.
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
Link to all prior year threads
YOU CAN POST TO THESE THREADS ANYTIME...IT IS NEVER TOO LATE!!!
PLEASE CONTRIBUTE: Post Bust Half pictures with or without descriptions, or just make a comment indicating an interest. ALL INPUT IS MUCH APPRECIATED.
====================================================
1813 CAPPED BUST HALF DOLLARS
Mintage of 1,241,903 places 1813 7th lowest of the 29 mint years. No other silver coins were mint produced in 1813. There were 7 obverse and 8 reverse dies used for mint year 1813, forming 10 marriages, none rare.
Typical strike for 1813 is weak to good, but mostly weak. 1813 is the year most likely to show clash marks, and often they will be heavy multiple clash marks. Examples of early die states, without any clashes, are very hard to find for certain 1813 varieties.
Metal flow weakness shows most frequently at the coin center. On the obverse, Miss Liberty’s hair curl above the ear, hair by ribbon ends, and drapery clasp show the weakness best. On the reverse, it would be the entire junction where the left wing joins to the eagle’s body. On 1807 examples the entire left wing is often weak. On 1810 examples, certain marriages show hardly any left wing feathers.
Some of the varieties show flat stars, likely caused by the stars being punched too deep in the die. Even extra pressure would not have filled metal into those too deep holes.
In the early years, Bust Half Dollars often show many die cracks. This is likely due to defective steel, or improper hardening techniques. Later years cracking is simply caused by overworking the dies. The study of Bust Half Dollar die cracks has been extensive, and there is much more left for study. Some Bust Half Dollar collectors accumulate dozens of certain marriages, just so they can study the die crack progression.
Some thoughts about cracks:
1) Improper die preparation: These cracks usually go from border to device, like dentil to Miss Liberty.
2) Bad or weakened metal: Usually these cracks run through the SMALL areas that were hand punched, like the stars, date, reverse letters, arrowheads, olive branch, and leaves.
3) Clashed dies: The stronger die causes the weaker die to get shatter cracks.
=============================================================
Some diagnostics for 50 over inverted UNI 1813 O-101 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. Well-centered date has a broad “8”, and “81” is closer than “18” or “13”. Star 7 points between dentils, and to center of curl. (Obverse shared with O-102.)
Reverse: John Reich started “UNI” about 90 degrees around too soon, shows under “50C”. It is likely the error was caused because the die was upside down, with eagle’s feet at the top. Under magnification, Reich could easily have mistaken the lower arrowhead, which was then at the top, for the left wing tip. Reich’s eyesight was known to be failing him by 1813. “I” centered under right side of “T”.
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For 50 over inverted UNI 1813 O-101a R4:
Obverse: Weak milling.
Reverse: Due to a clash, the working die was lapped to remove the clash marks, and also the remains of the “UNI” that remained after the initial error was corrected. This later effort weakened the olive stem, and part of the claw, but parts of the “UNI” still can be seen. Weak milling.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
0
Comments
Happy New Year buddy.
I have another example of the 101 50/UNI
central strike is very weak,with almost no beak details.This coin is
also an offset strike,another problem the early mint had.
As described,examples of these coins without die cracks are rare.The 107(earlier die state)
marriage is R4,according to the 4th edition of Overton.
edited to add rev details image(for what its worth)
On the reverse AT is very close at base, the left sides of T and I are inline, and there is a small center dot between lines 5 and 6 on the shield.
Some diagnostics for 1813 O-102 R4:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. On VLDS of O-101a, and this marriage, there are strong clash marks through and below the ear. Well-centered date has a broad “8”, and “81” is closer than “18” or “13”. Star 7 points between dentils, and to center of curl. (Obverse shared with O-101.) This specimen displays a pronounced double profile.
Note: This is a known, but still unlisted LDS. It has a crack from rim, through upper points of star 2, and well into the field.
Reverse: “I” is above “T” at top. Left side of “E” centered under “D”.“I” centered under right side of “T”. Usually has weak milling. (Reverse shared with O-104.)
Some diagnostics for 1813 O-103 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower edge of dentil. Hair curl extends upwards, piercing “R”. Top of “3” is filled on most specimens. (Obverse shared with O-104.)
Reverse: Small tine extends into field from top of left wing. “A” and “M” are close, and “A” is higher at base. All crossbars, except bottom one, extend into feathers at right. Tiny centering dot between crossbars 5 & 6 at left. “I” centered under left side of “T”.
Note: There exists an EDS with no dot showing above the wing. There also exists a LDS with a crack from olive tip to ‘UNITED STA”. Neither DS is listed.
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Some diagnostics for 1813 O-104 R4:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower edge of dentil. Hair curl extends upwards, piercing “R”. Top of “3” is filled. On this LDS, the forecurl stands away from the headband, and dentils are weak, or missing. (Obverse shared with O-103.)
Reverse: “I” is above “T” at top. Left side of “E” centered under “D”.“I” centered under right side of “T”. Usually shows weak milling. (Reverse shared with O-102.)
an attempted close up of the large dot that fills the space between crossbars 4 & 5
Another attempt to show the broad "8" and the lower second "1"
Here is an O-108 PCGS XF40
cmanbb, that sure looks like an AU coin to me! Beautiful bust half.
Obverse: First several stars usually quite flat. First 1 high and second 1 low. Star 7 recut at lower and upper points.
Reverse: Left end of scroll usually weak. E P usually missing. Left sides of T-I in line.
Capped Bust Half Series
Capped Bust Half Dime Series
Some diagnostics for 1813 O-105 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of dentil. There is a double dentil below “3”. Well-centered date is wide spaced, with large “8” and small “3”. (Obverse shared with O-110.)
Reverse: “A” and “T” nearly touch at base. Tiny centering dot between crossbars 5 & 6. Line 1 of stripe 3 extends upwards too far. There is a large raised area, mostly above stripe 2, showing on this picture as a faded area. Several stripe lines are thin at their bottoms, easily seen on line 1 of stripe 5. Left sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
The obverse die used to strike the O-109 was obv. die 6-s2, this die was used previously earlier in 1813 to strike the O-108
All of the O-109 obverses show the die cracks that were also present on the O-108. Little milling or none at all. Numerous die clashes appear. The crossbars on the shield are clashed onto the portrait, letters on the motto appear above the date, in my example shown feathers on the right wing are clashed in front of the portrait's face, etc.
The reverse die used to strike the O-109 was rev. die H. This die was used immediately prior to strike the O-110.
The reverse edge of this die marriage is often damaged. The arrowheads are separated.
A quick indentifier for the reverse is that the E in AMERICA is noticeably higher at the base than the M. (Remember, O-110 has the same reverse.)
SIDENOTE: All of us are aware of the 1812, 1814 and 1817 Single Leaf Bust Halves. In the 4th Edition of the O/P book, Parsley lists a new Single Leaf, the 1813 O-109a---this die marriage. A photo of an 1813 Single Leaf appears in Souders' "Bust Half Fever II." page 163.
I have owned two 1813 O-109's in approximately the same grade and condition. The upper two olive leaves on both of my coins looked the same. On the coins one of the two leaves seems to be almost missing---there is a faint outline of this "almost missing" leaf. I showed scans of my first O-109 (I have since sold the coin.) to two experts. Both experts stated that my coin was not the Single Leaf.
Bottom line: There are Bust Half experts who are convinced that there is such a thing as an 1813 O-109a Single Leaf. There are other Bust Half experts (just as knowledgeable as the first group of experts) who say "hogwash," there is no such thing. They say that the outlined second leaf (not completely there) is nothing more than a result of a bad strike or a lot of wear.
Take a look at my pictured coin. Take a look of the 1812 O-110b Single Leaf that I posted on the 1812 Thread. Look not only at the upper leaf, but also look at the missing (lapped away) feathers on the 1812. Compare the 1812 to this 1813. What do you think? (Remember, in the good old USA we are allowed to voice our opinions.)
Photos of the 1813 O-109, R3:
Some diagnostics for Single Leaf 1813 O-109a R5 (Marriage is R3.):
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. “8” is broad, and second “1” is low. Rim is often damaged, will little or no milling. On this LDS, a die crack circles most of the obverse. (Obverse shared with O-108.)
Reverse: In this LDS, only the lower leaf remains from the upper pair of leaves. “E” higher than “M” at base. “50 C” is low. “I” centered under left side of “T”. (Reverse shared with O-110.)
...awefully darn similar to my 1813 O-109 above your coin.
I am NOT disagreeing with you.
Yours DOES look like a single leaf. Holy Poop! ...and Hot Darn !
Jumping back and forth between your reverse and my reverse, I am having a hard time seeing the difference. (?)
Am I hoping that you will tell me mine is a Single Leave too? You bet I am.
If you say "Yes," I will be thrilled on one hand.
Unthrilled on the other hand. ...'cause it would mean that I sold off a perfectly good O-109 to somebody else.
What say you?
What say others?
Some dialogue please.
I cannot see enough from your pictures to say whether or not your specimen is the Single Leaf. Sorry. I believe my coin matches the picture in BUST HALF FEVER.
This "common" die marriage is known for light to heavy clash marks. These clash marks are known to all specimens of this variety.
The obverse of this die marriage was struck with Obverse die 3-s2. (The O/P books say Obv. die 7. This is incorrect.) This was the second and last use of this die. It was previously used to strike the O-105 die marriage.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck with Reverse die H-s2. This was the first use of this reverse die. It was used immediately following the O-110 to strike the O-109.
There are two quick identifiers for the O-110 that will help you pick it out of a pile of 1813's:
(1) On the obverse there is a distinct, heavy almost circular curl below the L in LIBERTY. The O-105 has this same curl. It may not be obvious on my coin pictured because of the smudge on the coin at that spot. Refer to Peterson's "The Ultimate Guide..." for a clearer photo.
(2) On the reverse the left base of the E in ME is very close to the base of the M. The left serif of the E is considerably higher than the M. This is also on the O-109.
The coin I have pictured is a Late Die State of the O-110. There is a die crack from the rim left of the date which goes up into the bust to Star 1. Perhaps there have not been enough specimens found of this stage of die wear to justify a separate "a model" entry in the O/P Book. (i.e., the O-110a) This die crack can be seen in my photo. The die crack is not mentioned in the O/P book.
SIDE COMMENT: Obverse and Reverse dies have been give alpha or numeric names. Numeric for the Obverse die. Alpha for the Reverse die. If a reverse die is named "A" for its initial use in striking a coin, it is renamed as the die wears and/or when die cracks develop in the die. If a significant number of coins are produced with this worn and/or cracked die, the die is renamed for this stage of die wear. For example, die A may be now named A-s2. A good example of this is the striking of the three 1827/6 die marriages ALL using, in the beginning, Obverse die 1. 1827/6 O-101 uses Obv. die 1., 1827/6 O-102 uses Obv. die 1-s2, and 1827/6 O-103 uses Obv. die 1-s3. The die, therefore, has been renamed for each DISTINCT stage of die wear.
MY POINT BEING is that on the subject coin in this discussion, the 1813 O-110, we know that the reverse die was first used to strike the O-110 and later used--after the die had worn and on the LDS a die crack had developed---to strike the O-109. In this case, I ask, why was the O-110 (per the O/P Book, the "bible," if you will) struck with the Rev. die H-s2? ...and the O-109---produced later---struck with the Rev. die H? How did this happen? Any comments or opinions?
Photos of the 1813 O-110, R1:
Some diagnostics for 1813 O-106a R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. Star 7 points to lower edge of dentil, to center of curl, and is recut at several points. First “1” is high, second “1” is low.
Reverse: Die lines in the shape of a tiny “U”, extend from left wing to left side of “U”. Die line below the right foot of T2, midway from scroll. Dr. Peterson says this “dash” is only seen on EDS, but this specimen shows all of the die cracks necessary for the LDS. Left sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
Photos of my 1813 O-104, R4:
Some diagnostics for 1.8.1..3 O-107 R4:
Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. Multiple die lines in field right of upper ribbon end. Dr. Peterson calls them a “comb”. Star 10 is recut at its lower inside point. “8” is too large. There are four dots between digits in this EDS “1.8.1..3”, all near the bottoms of the digits.
Reverse: Die line extends horizontally from upper leaf tip to dentil. “I” is centered under “T”.
Your coin is worn too much to make the Single Leaf determination from the pictures. This is the problem with getting universal agreement that the 1813 Single Leaf truly exists, the specimens examined are almost all too worn to make the determination. The one I posted is the highest graded one I have seen. Still nice to dream...
You guys have some beautiful looking 1813's. Tough to find pieces that are as nice as those that you two have posted on this thread. They should be savored with a good glass of wine! Thanks for posting them!
Edgar
Here's an 1813, O-103, R2
This die state is more common than the "very scarce" O-108, R4.
Identical to the O-108 except this die state was struck using cracked Obverse die 6-s2 and the worn Reverse die G-s2.
The obverse has a die crack joining all stars on the left and another fine one through 813 to star 13.
On the reverse the worn die produces a coin with incomplete or missing milling.
Photos of my 1813 O-108a, R2:
...but when I do agree, I am afraid we (really) are a quorum of two.
As soon as I get off the fence on the "no 1813 Single Leaf side," somebody convinces me there is an O-109a and I climb back over the fence to the "yes there is a Single Leaf side."
...and then, sure as Heck, a learned gentlemen like yourself comes along (AGAIN) and I climb back over to the other side of fence.
I am not a spry as I used to be and that barbed wire hurts.
Regards,
Ed R.
Seriously, it isn't necessary for us to agree all the time, not that it's likely. There are opinions all around on these subjects. Downey and Herrman don't accept this single leaf, but Peterson and Souders do. But it can be enjoyable to debate these points and maybe we'll all learn something new!
Nobody has seen my coin in hand since I found it as a misattributed O-110a.
I doubt that Parsley verified much of anything that went into the 4th ed. or he wouldn't have included 07 112"a" w/ reverse cud. All it will take for me to believe is for someone to show me a high grade example, later than my old coin, where the die has been lapped to remove the leaf. As opposed to merely worn. Also, I can see the leaf in your image!
Edited to add- if you believe that the reverse was lapped, can you point out some spots where other detail was removed? This is a feature that the other single leaves have in common.
122/123
John Reich Collectors Society
Capped Bust Dimes
The O-101a is the same as the O-101 except some mint employee, in an attempt to remove the UNI, has weakened the olive stem and part of the claw. The milling is weak on most O-101a's.
Photos of my 1813 O-101, R2;
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Photos of my 1813 O-101a, R4:
Here are some 1813's on these pages:
Just TRY and buy ONE piece like any that Ed shows from his set - at the next show that you attend. Even if you have a wad of money in your pocket - you would have to be very lucky indeed. Compare these pieces, and the way they look, to nearly any you see today. How many for sale today come close?
Quality like this is disappearing from the market. Be selective. Be patient. Don't settle for scratched or edge damaged pieces. And get them while you still can . . .
Thanks for posting Ed!
Edgar
Added diagnostics for late die state 1813 O-107a R1:
Note: For the late die state, the dies are shattered. The earlier cracks are much larger, and there are new cracks.
Obverse: Crack at star 8 now extends over top of cap. New crack goes from curl, to drapery, clasp, and to lower neck. A new crack goes from rim below 18 upwards, and shows a lump below 1.
Reverse: Crack at scroll now runs all the way down through arrowheads, and to top of C. There is a lump between T and E in STATES. New crack runs from scroll across eagle’s neck, and into left wing.
Welcome to our CU Lettered Edge Capped Bust Half Dollar series.
I think your Bustie is O-108a R2. To be the LDS, there needs to be a crack from left of date joining all stars on left, AND another faint crack through 813 to star 13.
Interesting Bustie you have there.
This left me with TWO O-109, R3's, but no O-110, R1. (I guess this is better than having TWO R1's and no R3's.)
The replacement coin arrived today.
It is a neat, eye appealing coin. What you see on the obverse rims are NOT rim dings. The edge lettering is too close to the edge.
The coin also has an awesomely heavy die clash under the bust above the date.
My antique flat bed scanner does not show the golden - with tinge of blue - toning around the edge devices. If I had FEVER's new photography set-up, you would go TOTALLY GAGA over the pictures.
My new 1813 O-110, R1:
The die clash under the bust:
Enjoy,
Ed R.
Many of us would be well advised to emulate Fever's set up!!
Ray
My apologies for joining this thread late in the game.
Here's a pic of my O-109:
My first impression of this piece was that it was an O-110 because of the clashed "e pluribus" above the date, but it quickly became evident that the diagnostics of the O-110 were all wrong. The easiest clue is the odd configuration of the date with a big high 8 and a lower second 1.
In any case I love the clashing on this piece: stripes and bars of the reverse shield on Liberty's ear, olive branch clashing in front of Liberty's face, eagle feathers below Liberty's chin, and the A (A1) from states to the left of the date. Also, on the reverse, there is the outline of Liberty's mouth and nose below the eagle's left wing and the outline of her cap low at the date.
Unfortunately, it's not a single leaf. We just can't have everything can we?