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For those believe a light dipping is O.K., do you also believe that lightly AT'ing a coin is also al

CaptainRonCaptainRon Posts: 1,189 ✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
For those believe a light dipping is O.K., do you also believe that lightly AT'ing a coin is also allright.

If you lightly dip a coin to remove some light negative toning, to make the coin more market friendly or, just make the coin more visually appealing to yourself then: wouldn't it be O.K. to lightly AT a coin to say hide some hairlines near the rim of a coin.

If not what is your reasoning why?

Just curious.
Ron

Edited to remove all the says
image

Comments

  • CoxeCoxe Posts: 11,139 ✭
    I personally do not like tampering with a coin except to remove PVC or debris that could ham the surface of the coin. Toning is a natural process that can be mostly arrested with the proper storage ... or enhanced with selective storage. Improving a coin's marketability with dipping and similar is an unfortunate reality. The only way to counter it is to not contribute to its market. Don't pay premiums for blast white, obviously dipped, or monster ATs.
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  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    No.

    Dipping is removing something that is not sposed to be on the coin (toning) to put it back to near original "mint state" condition.

    AT'ing is adding something that isn't sposed to be there in order to decieve someone, or as in your example, to hide something.
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  • itsnotjustmeitsnotjustme Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭
    No.

    Dog hit it on the head, so I will not repeat.
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  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Dipping is removing something that is not sposed to be on the coin (toning) to put it back to near original "mint state" condition.

    AT'ing is adding something that isn't sposed to be there in order to decieve someone, or as in your example, to hide something. >>

    What he said. I think dipping is *usually* a mistake, but they aren't the same and they are usually done for different reasons. AT is never done, as far as I know, for reasons other than deception.
  • seemyauctionseemyauction Posts: 3,655 ✭


    << <i>

    Dipping is removing something that is not sposed to be on the coin (toning) to put it back to near original "mint state" condition.

    AT'ing is adding something that isn't sposed to be there in order to decieve someone, or as in your example, to hide something. >>




    Sorry Dog but I disagree with you, Dipping is the same as ATing a coin to me, if ya mess with it its AT....


    AL



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  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,712 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>No.

    Dipping is removing something that is not sposed to be on the coin (toning) to put it back to near original "mint state" condition.

    AT'ing is adding something that isn't sposed to be there in order to decieve someone, or as in your example, to hide something. >>



    So a 200 year old silver coin is not "sposed" to have toning? Dang! Learn sumthin new here every day. image



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  • SunnywoodSunnywood Posts: 2,683 ✭
    Dipping removes the natural patina on the coin, and potentially removes atoms of the base metals as well. Dijpping is an artificial process that leaves behind an artificial surface. In my view, dipping is NOT any more defensible than any other process that artificially and intentionally alters the surfaces of the coin.

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    Sunnywood
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  • RedTigerRedTiger Posts: 5,608 ✭
    AT is another grey area. I have little problem with someone putting coins in an album hoping they will tone. Some albums are known to be better for this than others. This kind of toning, I would put into the same category as a light dip.

    As much as I might wish for a different world, ferreting out all the expert dipped, or expert AT coins, unfortunately raises the red flag on lots and lots of honest coins. Certainly the grading services find a large grey area, where the same dipped or AT coin gets bagged one day, and gets through a month later. The average collector can learn to spot the worst of the holdered coins, and also use some common sense.

    Common sense tells me that a 19th century non-Morgan is unlikely to be blast white and very likely dipped. Also the some blue unc Indian cents were made as an experiment and are now being holdered.

    Common sense tells me that a bunch of monster toners that have been holdered during the past five years. These coins did not exist 20 to 25 years ago. The auction catalogs from back then had very few super toned coins and even then they were extremely desirable and bid up to high multiples. Only a fool would think they all came out of hiding. A much more likely scenario is that folks are making them.

    These and other techniques have been around as long as there has been a hobby, much as a person might wish for a different world.
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  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Sorry Dog but I disagree with you, Dipping is the same as ATing a coin to me, if ya mess with it its AT.... >>

    How can it be "AT" when the "T" in AT means "toning" and there is no toning?

    Yes, both are messed with but again, sometimes the motivation is different.
  • BurksBurks Posts: 1,103 ✭
    Dipping to me is not as bad as AT'ing but I still frown on it.

    When I first got into the hobby everyone said "dipping is bad mmmmmkay!". Now it's market acceptable? Bah! Didn't know the rules changed that much in two years.
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  • AU58WALKERSAU58WALKERS Posts: 3,562 ✭


    << <i>Dipping to me is not as bad as AT'ing but I still frown on it.

    When I first got into the hobby everyone said "dipping is bad mmmmmkay!". Now it's market acceptable? Bah! Didn't know the rules changed that much in two years. >>



    The "rules" are always being changed by the collectors.
    What ever they are spending money on is what will be.
    Be it toned or "balst white"/
    The collectors deceide, the doctors provide.
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  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    <<< <<

    Dipping is removing something that is not sposed to be on the coin (toning) to put it back to near original "mint state" condition.

    AT'ing is adding something that isn't sposed to be there in order to decieve someone, or as in your example, to hide something. >>




    Sorry Dog but I disagree with you, Dipping is the same as ATing a coin to me, if ya mess with it its AT....


    AL>>>

    You don’t disagree with me as much as you think you do. Notice I said <<<to near original "mint state" condition.>>> I agree with YOU that if it’s messed with, then it’s messed with. Lesser of 2 evils type of thing.


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  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    When properly done, dipping can restore the natural beauty to a hazed over crappy looking coin. Those of you who are anti-dipping are welcome to all the hazed over crappy looking coins. I'd rather have the natural beauty.

    Russ, NCNE
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  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 14,010 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dipping is "restoring".

    AT is deceiving.
    When in doubt, don't.
  • JJMJJM Posts: 8,080 ✭✭✭✭✭
    no unless its to remove PVC, and No unless your just tinkering with a coin for fun and have no intention of trying to sell it as NT
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  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    the question is asked as if there is only one kind of AT.

    I think it's wrong to apply paint, chemicals, heat, or anything else to dramatically accelerate toning.

    I don't thing there's anything wrong at all with putting a white coin in an album or envelope and allowing toning to form over months or years.

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  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Dipping is "restoring".

    AT is deceiving. >>



    That's about it.

    Al
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>no unless its to remove PVC... >>

    That's certainly a recognized and almost universally accepted reason for "conservation." The thing is, when you're "dipping" a coin to remove toning, you're not just dipping it in acetone (which is completely harmless to the coin if done and rinsed off properly), you're removing metal (actually, metal oxides and sulfides that formed with metal that was originally on the coin).
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,313 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are times when one has no choice but to dip. That said, Sunnywood already stated the effects of dipping: removal of toning as well as some base metal with it. If you say a coin is lightly dipped, then you can tell the luster is not all there (ie impaired).

    Toning that etches into a coins surface to dull the luster also works to lower its value.

    Dipping a coin is sometimes acceptable. AT'ing never is. Sticking coins into albums to tone them is the lesser of all these evils, and imo is perfectly acceptable. If it worked for Clapp/Eliasberg then why not us?

    roadrunner
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  • BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>When properly done, dipping can restore the natural beauty to a hazed over crappy looking coin. Those of you who are anti-dipping are welcome to all the hazed over crappy looking coins. I'd rather have the natural beauty.

    Russ, NCNE >>



    Anyone who can say this and decry ATing is practicing moral relativism, and is obviously not a numismatic purist.

    The fact that I happen to agree with the stated point of view changes nothing. The application of ethics is still situational. ANYTHING done to a coin with the intent to improve its' state of preservation or appearance is "messing" with it.

    I'll probably never stop messing.

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  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i><< When properly done, dipping can restore the natural beauty to a hazed over crappy looking coin. Those of you who are anti-dipping are welcome to all the hazed over crappy looking coins. I'd rather have the natural beauty.

    Russ, NCNE >>

    Anyone who can say this and decry ATing is practicing moral relativism, and is obviously not a numismatic purist.

    The fact that I happen to agree with the stated point of view changes nothing. The application of ethics is still situational. ANYTHING done to a coin with the intent to improve its' state of preservation or appearance is "messing" with it.

    I'll probably never stop messing. >>



    Your assertion assumes there is something unethical about dipping a coin. There isn't. Coins didn't come from the mint with crap all over them. Conserving them to restore them to their original beauty is no more unethical than the restoration work currently being done on the Declaration Of Independence.

    Russ, NCNE
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  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,655 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dog & Russ IMO have it right. Nearly 40 years ago, I bought a BU Gem Walker in a 2 by 2. Thirty years later, I had another look at it. The coin had a yellowish layer of some kind of sulfate it on the surfaces of the coin which dulled its luster. A dipping to get rid of this sulfur layer made this a wonder coin which is now in a PC 6 holder. No way is the luster on this coin impaired; it would be in a 7 holder if not for a few small contact marks on the eagle's wings (on the reverse).

    If properly done, a dip can get rid of stuff that has accumulated on the surface of a coin and can restore it pretty close to its original state. OTOH, ATing a coin is intentionally and unnaturally making it something it never was in the first place.
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  • BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i><< When properly done, dipping can restore the natural beauty to a hazed over crappy looking coin. Those of you who are anti-dipping are welcome to all the hazed over crappy looking coins. I'd rather have the natural beauty.

    Russ, NCNE >>

    Anyone who can say this and decry ATing is practicing moral relativism, and is obviously not a numismatic purist.

    The fact that I happen to agree with the stated point of view changes nothing. The application of ethics is still situational. ANYTHING done to a coin with the intent to improve its' state of preservation or appearance is "messing" with it.

    I'll probably never stop messing. >>



    Your assertion assumes there is something unethical about dipping a coin. There isn't. Coins didn't come from the mint with crap all over them. Conserving them to restore them to their original beauty is no more unethical than the restoration work currently being done on the Declaration Of Independence.

    Russ, NCNE >>



    I know that you are right. I was just being obtuse and annoying, and working on my thesaurus skills image

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