I'm guessing that the previous peak in 1989 was when the Bass brothers were trying to corner the gold and silver market. Is that correct? Do any of you remember what the market was like then?
<< <i>The bull market has barely started. Those that have a 10-year investment horizon instead of a 10-week one know this and will do very well.
What is going on in FUN is prices have moved up nicely and enough over the past couple of years to finally bring some nice fresh material out to market. Collectors will collect throughout and long-term investors will continue to add to their holdings as well.
Saint Guru is very accurate in his comments. On the other hand all market tops are charactirized by an 100% optimism with no one saying anything about a market coming down. As long as their are folks out there like Jupiter, and not to belittle his belief, we haven't reached a top. So I am glad to see responses about this being a top. It's a guarantee we have a long way to go if one keeps a long term investment vision.
Those that have acquired true wealth in the coin market have done so by analysing the market in terms of 10 and 20 years, not ten and twenty weeks. We already know that this is not 1989 and it appears that the current bull market has much farther to go absent external forces causing an economy wide dip. Those that say "smart money" is selling have failed to provide any facts supporting their positions nor have they defined the key term "smart money".
I casually notice the people who most insist I am dead wrong are also surprisingly enough those with the most to lose if I am right. This only serves to strengthern my opinion.
<< <i>I casually notice the people who most insist I am dead wrong are also surprisingly enough those with the most to lose if I am right. This only serves to strengthern my opinion. >>
Accordingly to your logic, one should not act as the wealthy act because they have the most to lose ... I disagree. There is a reason that we have the most to lose ... generally, it is because we have made money and have a track record for success. Your argument is incorrectly premised upon a preconceived notion that, because we have more to lose, we are more likely to deceive ourselves as to the true nature of the market. This simply is not correct ... those would be the actions of desparate men, not successful men.
There is far to much liquidity out there....and in strong hands.
Strong hands don't have to sell as they own other assets for liquidity needs.
ANY meaningful dip in rare coins with original surfaces and problem free will be met with vigorous buying. 'Wall Street' is waking again to a different numismatic market than what happened in 1990.
Alternatives is the operative word here and is early in catching on relative to the 'Street.
You will NOT see fanfare in the accumulation of good coins again. Add in the growing new collector base worldwide and we have a sustained bull market.
I do not see the market dropping.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
The bull market has barely started. Those that have a 10-year investment horizon instead of a 10-week one know this and will do very well.
Anyone that believes that "the bull market has barely started" had not been paying attention.
How easy it is to take something out of context. Look back at history in most different types of markets Andy. Long-term bull markets last for many, many years, well over a decade in most cases. The current bull market in rare coins has a lot further to go if it follows typical market patterns. It has a lot more time ahead of it then we have seen thus far since it started in 2002. There will be interim corrections but it has taken now 4 years or so to begin to bring some nice fresh material that has been off the market as Julian points out. This is a very exciting time and before this bull market is over we should be seeing more fresh exciting coins come to market for the balance of the decade.
As a collector you should be able to add some really nice coins to your holdings over the next few years as some of this material will now be a bit more available. I am sure the dealers I follow hope that's the case as obtaining fresh nice quality coins has been very challenging for what I have read and heard. If this FUN show coming up is any indication fresh quality coins may be showing up a bit more and that should be a good thing for all parties.
I am viewing this in the context of several markets including stocks, art and real estate, not just coins, which I think my statements are pretty clear on. I would certainly call the period from the mid-50's to early 1970's over 10 years and if you look at any reliable price guides, although sans TPG's during that period, and with normal short-term corrections coins enjoyed a sustained bull market.
Now with TPG's resulting in a lower risk to investors of grade games from dealers, and a broader base of collectors and investors, the current coin market is likely to have a much longer run comparable to other investment options. My views are obviously a lot more macro than just the coin market, but your's could be right too.
Like any discussion either side can usually pull up facts to support their position. Only time in hindsight can really be the judge, can't it?
<< <i>I casually notice the people who most insist I am dead wrong are also surprisingly enough those with the most to lose if I am right. This only serves to strengthern my opinion. >>
I'll bet you have your fingers waving in front of your nose too.
You REALLY should sell your coins. I think it's the right move for you. This IS the top, ya know?
<< <i>Long-term bull markets last for many, many years, well over a decade in most cases.
When was the last time a bull market in coins lasted for more than a decade? Not during my lifetime. Maybe not even during Art Kagin's lifetime. >>
When was the last bull market with TPG coins? When was the last time gold was over $600...in a sustained move? Who bought all the coins in the LAST bull market? When was the "flight to quality" popular among savvy wealthy individuals?
THINGS ARE DIFFERENT THIS TIME. I will take the position that NO dealer alive has ever seen a fundamentally similar scenario to what we have today. I remember when Robert Prechter was ridiculed for his 3600 Dow call in the mid 80's. John Templeton was considered over the hill and senile when he said Dow 20,000 in the 90's.
You think history repeats itself? Not a chance. That's old-school economics that is being discredited now.
Not really. 1982 Eliasberg 1839 Proof Eagle auctioned -- sells for the price of a house. 2007 Eliasberg 1839 Proof Eagle auctioned -- sells for the price of a house.
"It is uninformed to say the smart money is cashing out. I see NO evidence."
Featured Collections • The Dr. Robert J. Loewinger Collection • The Monedas Oro Collection • The William Luebke Collection • The Essex Palm Collection • The Troy Wiseman Collection, Part Two • The Jones Beach Collection • The Freedom Collection • The Kutasi Collection • The James Paul Collection • The Oak Island Collection • The Blowing Rock Collection, Part Two • The Stone 1837 Collection • The Cocoa Beach Collection • The Temecula Collection • The RNB Collection • The Dale A. Konigsburg Collection • The Westmoreland, Virginia Collection, Part Two • The Lanterman's Mill Collection • The Twin Hollows Collection • The Hill Country Collection • The Prinzi Trust Collection • The Monedas Oro Collection, Part II • The Blue Ridge Collection of Germanic Coins • The Sanssouci Collection of French Gold Coins • The Treasures of the Sea Collection of Atocha and Santa Margarita Coins • The Shinholser Collection of World Coins • The Dennis Ritter Collection of Ethiopian Coins
and this is just the tip of the iceberg of SELLERS at FUN, so many top tier collections and ultra rarities selling out it boggles the mind and pales into insignificance the few million dollar buyers you mention
"If the market were ready to drop-these big players wouldn't even be in coins-they sell before the first hint of a down turn. And they certainly wouldn't be buying."
this is certainly speculation on your part and the part of the buyers as you nor anyone else can say with certainty the market is not topped out. Just because someone has a million dollars or two burning a hole in their pocket is not evidence the market will reach new highs in the coming months or years.
<< <i>THINGS CHANGE...especially economics in a modern age.
Economic theory changes. Economic principles? Maybe not.
Anyway, good luck to all! >>
Of course economics change!
Do you think that the measures of unemployment are different now that there is technology and robotics in manufacturing?
Do you think the fact that over 25% of the work-force has shifted into service related jobs vs. labor is a fundamental change?
Andy...as we become more advanced with technology, outsourcing, fed policy and dozens of other variables, ECONOMIC PRINCIPLES change. They are NOT static. The Industrial Revolution economy of the 19th century was MUCH different that the manufacturing economy of the 50's as well as the technological economy of the new millenium. More distribution of wealth, less need for fed meddling, more need for taxes.
Oh, Jupiter....what of there are TWICE as many buyers than that list of sellers? Would that mean that the market is topping? Your evidence is an interpretation, not empirical by any means. You are using half of an equation to prove something.
<< <i>"If the market were ready to drop-these big players wouldn't even be in coins-they sell before the first hint of a down turn. And they certainly wouldn't be buying."
this is certainly speculation on your part and the part of the buyers as you nor anyone else can say with certainty the market is not topped out. Just because someone has a million dollars or two burning a hole in their pocket is not evidence the market will reach new highs in the coming months or years. >>
Interesting how someone makes a bold prediction and voices an opinion that FUN will be the top of the market based on the huge number of sellers and endless array of top flight material for sale, and the CU braintrust and those with seemingly the most to lose in a strong market reversal can do no more then reply with sarcasm and nasty remarks and beat their chest how uniformed and what an imbecile you are for not agreeing with their views. To add to the sarcasm I'm sure most of these sellers consigning tens of millions of dollars in coins feel the market will jump another 50% very soon but desperately need funds to pay the overdue phone and cable bill.
People can have all sorts of reasons to sell. Might want to reposition some money into scooping real estate at discounts? Might be putting a little spin on the wheel to keep the inertia going and are not bailing out completely? We know one individual among us is selling a legendary (no pun initially intended) coin but is retaining quite a bit of truly great material. We do know this market seriously needs the infusion of a good supply of fresh and quality coins. The good stuff has been dwindling for, what, 18 months solid now? I know I did ok buying at FUN last time, but the previous one was way better for me. One thing I can say about money, smart or not, is that the only folks I have heard packing their bags and looking elsewhere are those who have felt priced out of the market. Buyers of significant means are still quite eager and waiting with acquired patience for the coins they desire to avail themselves.
Interesting how someone makes a bold prediction and voices an opinion that FUN will be the top of the market based on the huge number of sellers and endless array of top flight material for sale,
I feel you are missing the crux of the response to your assertion. Where was your bold predicition last FUN? The FUN before that? Last ANA? The ANA before that? Every year these auctions have been better and bigger than the year before.... there's nothing special about this FUN. There's no difference in the incremental increase of nice coins over last year and the year before that and the year before that. Why is it different this year?
You've yet to prove your point. A list of consignors in the Heritage auction is not factual proof that the 'smart money' is cashing out.
<< <i>To add to the sarcasm I'm sure most of these sellers consigning tens of millions of dollars in coins feel the market will jump another 50% very soon but desperately need funds to pay the overdue phone and cable bill. >>
That is an interesting observation Jupiter ... upon what do you base this assertion? If you are correct, it surely doesn't speak well for the state of the market.
Selling out doesn't necessarily mean a lot - I bet a lot of these sellers the last few years are "permanent" collectors and have jumped back in, perhaps in another area. If all the auction sales the last couple years were "one-way", money leaving the market permanently, this market would be seriously depressed.
As for the folks with the million dollar pockets, that doesn't mean much to me either - you are talking about a very narrow segment of the market, even if there are 50 or even 100 of them. It's not hard to imagine a small batch of very successful boomers out who grew up filling penny boards, and now want to buy coins because they are "cool", regardless of the rest of the market.
The ultra-rarities naturally grab attention, but probably a better measure of foundational strength is how many coins are being sold in the $500-$5000 "collector" range.
Talk about investors and millions of dollars going in and out of coins, makes me think about the collector. Collectors like to make a little from their sale, no matter what they collect. For some collectors it's the joy of collecting, not the return they may get if they sell. Buying and selling coins to acheive a position in a Registry, for some, has replaced collecting for fun.
My collection is comprised of coins up to the 4 to 5 digit range. Coins I'm interested in now fall in the mid to upper 4 digit range. That said, I'm with TDN... let it crash. I'll buy what I want for less.
It will eventually make a turn upward. And if I miss the upswing... oh well.
Good point, Jay. Some of the best collections don't come to market due to highly informed, calculated, opportnistic timing. They are sold by an executor to liquidate an estate for inheritances. Look at some great ones that sold in bad markets. Although the circumstances of the liquidation were different, the non-gold portions of the grand Eliasberg collection sold at a really crappy time, the mid-90s. (I credit that sale with the beginning of this market's slow pull up.)
Another thing to point out is that having a lot of money doesn't mean one has all of the correct answers on money matters. Some do; some don't. Some would say putting a lot into coins is a foolish risk of money (not in the Motley sense), indicating the coin side is not their brutallt serious money. However, a lot of money folks (especially those with a head for coins) can be alarmingly involved in even minute details on transactions. The point is that there is no rule that applies to all and there is not circle-of-_______ conspiracy.
<< <i>Good point, Jay. Some of the best collections don't come to market due to highly informed, calculated, opportnistic timing. They are sold by an executor to liquidate an estate for inheritances. Look at some great ones that sold in bad markets. Although the circumstances of the liquidation were different, the non-gold portions of the grand Eliasberg collection sold at a really crappy time, the mid-90s. (I credit that sale with the beginning of this market's slow pull up.)
Another thing to point out is that having a lot of money doesn't mean one has all of the correct answers on money matters. Some do; some don't. Some would say putting a lot into coins is a foolish risk of money (not in the Motley sense), indicating the coin side is not their brutallt serious money. However, a lot of money folks (especially those with a head for coins) can be alarmingly involved in even minute details on transactions. The point is that there is no rule that applies to all and there is not circle-of-_______ conspiracy. >>
Would the Texas Bank/Browning collection come to mind?
here was one of the finest Gold collections ever assembled, and he died young. The unfortunate timing of his heirs auction...October 29/30 2001. Just 6 weeks after 9/11.
That's not market timing. Many others arent either.
" you don't know what you're talking about, you are unqualified, you are saying stupid stuff, it's time to keep your mouth shut "
Interesting counterpoints from someone here who always seems to be obsessed with transparent and immature attempts at trying to impress others here.
To address the additional counterpoints here, they have all be strongly made by those with a powerful vested interest in expensive collections or those who make a living as a retail dealer in the market and are therefore highly biased. The fact remains that a significant number of owners of top level collections and very expensive rarities have chosen to cash out now and I believe it may be a long and painful summer for those bidding moon money at FUN.
Comments
<< <i>The bull market has barely started. Those that have a 10-year investment horizon instead of a 10-week one know this and will do very well.
What is going on in FUN is prices have moved up nicely and enough over the past couple of years to finally bring some nice fresh material out to market. Collectors will collect throughout and long-term investors will continue to add to their holdings as well.
Saint Guru is very accurate in his comments. On the other hand all market tops are charactirized by an 100% optimism with no one saying anything about a market coming down. As long as their are folks out there like Jupiter, and not to belittle his belief, we haven't reached a top. So I am glad to see responses about this being a top. It's a guarantee we have a long way to go if one keeps a long term investment vision.
Glenn >>
ANYTHING that Sandy Koufax says is 100% true.
Anyone that believes that "the bull market has barely started" had not been paying attention.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I casually notice the people who most insist I am dead wrong are also surprisingly enough those with the most to lose if I am right. This only serves to strengthern my opinion. >>
Accordingly to your logic, one should not act as the wealthy act because they have the most to lose ... I disagree. There is a reason that we have the most to lose ... generally, it is because we have made money and have a track record for success. Your argument is incorrectly premised upon a preconceived notion that, because we have more to lose, we are more likely to deceive ourselves as to the true nature of the market. This simply is not correct ... those would be the actions of desparate men, not successful men.
I'd love for truly rare coins to crash in price - then I could buy more of them than I can now!
Now it's an alternative long-term investment.
I have been saying this, no question about it!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Why would smart money invest in coins to begin with?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Strong hands don't have to sell as they own other assets for liquidity needs.
ANY meaningful dip in rare coins with original surfaces and problem free will be met with vigorous buying. 'Wall Street' is waking again to a different numismatic market than what happened in 1990.
Alternatives is the operative word here and is early in catching on relative to the 'Street.
You will NOT see fanfare in the accumulation of good coins again. Add in the growing new collector base worldwide and we have a sustained bull market.
I do not see the market dropping.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Why would smart money invest in coins to begin with?
I would most definitely say yes ... and it has been doing so for many, many years.
Anyone that believes that "the bull market has barely started" had not been paying attention.
How easy it is to take something out of context. Look back at history in most different types of markets Andy. Long-term bull markets last for many, many years, well over a decade in most cases. The current bull market in rare coins has a lot further to go if it follows typical market patterns. It has a lot more time ahead of it then we have seen thus far since it started in 2002. There will be interim corrections but it has taken now 4 years or so to begin to bring some nice fresh material that has been off the market as Julian points out. This is a very exciting time and before this bull market is over we should be seeing more fresh exciting coins come to market for the balance of the decade.
As a collector you should be able to add some really nice coins to your holdings over the next few years as some of this material will now be a bit more available. I am sure the dealers I follow hope that's the case as obtaining fresh nice quality coins has been very challenging for what I have read and heard. If this FUN show coming up is any indication fresh quality coins may be showing up a bit more and that should be a good thing for all parties.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
When was the last time a bull market in coins lasted for more than a decade? Not during my lifetime. Maybe not even during Art Kagin's lifetime.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Now with TPG's resulting in a lower risk to investors of grade games from dealers, and a broader base of collectors and investors, the current coin market is likely to have a much longer run comparable to other investment options. My views are obviously a lot more macro than just the coin market, but your's could be right too.
Like any discussion either side can usually pull up facts to support their position. Only time in hindsight can really be the judge, can't it?
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
<< <i>I casually notice the people who most insist I am dead wrong are also surprisingly enough those with the most to lose if I am right. This only serves to strengthern my opinion. >>
I'll bet you have your fingers waving in front of your nose too.
You REALLY should sell your coins. I think it's the right move for you. This IS the top, ya know?
My understanding is that the coin market tanked in 1964 and stayed depressed until the early 70's.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Long-term bull markets last for many, many years, well over a decade in most cases.
When was the last time a bull market in coins lasted for more than a decade? Not during my lifetime. Maybe not even during Art Kagin's lifetime. >>
When was the last bull market with TPG coins?
When was the last time gold was over $600...in a sustained move?
Who bought all the coins in the LAST bull market?
When was the "flight to quality" popular among savvy wealthy individuals?
THINGS ARE DIFFERENT THIS TIME. I will take the position that NO dealer alive has ever seen a fundamentally similar scenario to what we have today. I remember when Robert Prechter was ridiculed for his 3600 Dow call in the mid 80's. John Templeton was considered over the hill and senile when he said Dow 20,000 in the 90's.
You think history repeats itself? Not a chance. That's old-school economics that is being discredited now.
Famous last words.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
'tis the season to be jolly
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>THINGS ARE DIFFERENT THIS TIME.
Famous last words. >>
Yep...that's why I capitalized that. Just like the Phillip's Curve is obsolete. GOOGLE that, Andy.
<< <i>THINGS ARE DIFFERENT THIS TIME >>
Not really. 1982 Eliasberg 1839 Proof Eagle auctioned -- sells for the price of a house. 2007 Eliasberg 1839 Proof Eagle auctioned -- sells for the price of a house.
CG
<<SHAKE, SHAKE, SHAKE>>
"It is decidedly so."
Don't worry ... my realiable sources say that we are going to be OK!
I know you're old, but how young do you think I am?
For all it's worth, it never make sense to me. Not enough dimensions on the graph.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Just like the Phillip's Curve is obsolete. GOOGLE that, Andy.
I know you're old, but how young do you think I am?
For all it's worth, it never make sense to me. Not enough dimensions on the graph. >>
Maybe so...but the Phillips Curve was ALWAYS a key gauge of inflation and influece for monetary policy. Now it's a dinosaur.
That's my point. THINGS CHANGE...especially economics in a modern age.
Economic theory changes. Economic principles? Maybe not.
Anyway, good luck to all!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Featured Collections
• The Dr. Robert J. Loewinger Collection
• The Monedas Oro Collection
• The William Luebke Collection
• The Essex Palm Collection
• The Troy Wiseman Collection, Part Two
• The Jones Beach Collection
• The Freedom Collection
• The Kutasi Collection
• The James Paul Collection
• The Oak Island Collection
• The Blowing Rock Collection, Part Two
• The Stone 1837 Collection
• The Cocoa Beach Collection
• The Temecula Collection
• The RNB Collection
• The Dale A. Konigsburg Collection
• The Westmoreland, Virginia Collection, Part Two
• The Lanterman's Mill Collection
• The Twin Hollows Collection
• The Hill Country Collection
• The Prinzi Trust Collection
• The Monedas Oro Collection, Part II
• The Blue Ridge Collection of Germanic Coins
• The Sanssouci Collection of French Gold Coins
• The Treasures of the Sea Collection of Atocha and Santa Margarita Coins
• The Shinholser Collection of World Coins
• The Dennis Ritter Collection of Ethiopian Coins
and this is just the tip of the iceberg of SELLERS at FUN, so many top tier collections and ultra rarities selling out it boggles the mind and pales into insignificance the few million dollar buyers you mention
this is certainly speculation on your part and the part of the buyers as you nor anyone else can say with certainty the market is not topped out. Just because someone has a million dollars or two burning a hole in their pocket is not evidence the market will reach new highs in the coming months or years.
<< <i>THINGS CHANGE...especially economics in a modern age.
Economic theory changes. Economic principles? Maybe not.
Anyway, good luck to all! >>
Of course economics change!
Do you think that the measures of unemployment are different now that there is technology and robotics in manufacturing?
Do you think the fact that over 25% of the work-force has shifted into service related jobs vs. labor is a fundamental change?
Andy...as we become more advanced with technology, outsourcing, fed policy and dozens of other variables, ECONOMIC PRINCIPLES change. They are NOT static. The Industrial Revolution economy of the 19th century was MUCH different that the manufacturing economy of the 50's as well as the technological economy of the new millenium. More distribution of wealth, less need for fed meddling, more need for taxes.
Oh, Jupiter....what of there are TWICE as many buyers than that list of sellers? Would that mean that the market is topping? Your evidence is an interpretation, not empirical by any means. You are using half of an equation to prove something.
Man...I need an economics forum.
<< <i>"If the market were ready to drop-these big players wouldn't even be in coins-they sell before the first hint of a down turn. And they certainly wouldn't be buying."
this is certainly speculation on your part and the part of the buyers as you nor anyone else can say with certainty the market is not topped out. Just because someone has a million dollars or two burning a hole in their pocket is not evidence the market will reach new highs in the coming months or years. >>
You must be right - hurry up and crash already!
[ignore]Jupiter[/ignore]
<< <i>Aren't most of these collections named just for the sale? They are consignment names, not names of collections-------------------BigE >>
Shhhh! - crash, darnit - crash!
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
I feel you are missing the crux of the response to your assertion. Where was your bold predicition last FUN? The FUN before that? Last ANA? The ANA before that? Every year these auctions have been better and bigger than the year before.... there's nothing special about this FUN. There's no difference in the incremental increase of nice coins over last year and the year before that and the year before that. Why is it different this year?
You've yet to prove your point. A list of consignors in the Heritage auction is not factual proof that the 'smart money' is cashing out.
<< <i>To add to the sarcasm I'm sure most of these sellers consigning tens of millions of dollars in coins feel the market will jump another 50% very soon but desperately need funds to pay the overdue phone and cable bill. >>
That is an interesting observation Jupiter ... upon what do you base this assertion? If you are correct, it surely doesn't speak well for the state of the market.
As for the folks with the million dollar pockets, that doesn't mean much to me either - you are talking about a very narrow segment of the market, even if there are 50 or even 100 of them. It's not hard to imagine a small batch of very successful boomers out who grew up filling penny boards, and now want to buy coins because they are "cool", regardless of the rest of the market.
The ultra-rarities naturally grab attention, but probably a better measure of foundational strength is how many coins are being sold in the $500-$5000 "collector" range.
<< <i> Steve Wynn but his arm through a painting that was worth as much as all the coins for sale at FUN-and he had the darn thing sold! >>
Did not hear that one. How the heck did that happen -- did he trip over someone?
In all reality this is not going to happen.
The FUN show/auction/bourse activity is going to be a barometer for the year to come. Mark my words.
My collection is comprised of coins up to the 4 to 5 digit range. Coins I'm interested in now fall in the mid to upper 4 digit range. That said, I'm with TDN... let it crash. I'll buy what I want for less.
It will eventually make a turn upward. And if I miss the upswing... oh well.
Because I'm a collector.
Any idea how many of the collectors who are selling their coins are "estate sales" because the owner is dead?
If you DON'T know that then you know NOTHING, because that could have SIGNIFICANT bearing on the facts.
Quit your whining. You got your ass whupped for saying stupid stuff...now it's time to keep your mouth shut, get into position and bid.
Another thing to point out is that having a lot of money doesn't mean one has all of the correct answers on money matters. Some do; some don't. Some would say putting a lot into coins is a foolish risk of money (not in the Motley sense), indicating the coin side is not their brutallt serious money. However, a lot of money folks (especially those with a head for coins) can be alarmingly involved in even minute details on transactions. The point is that there is no rule that applies to all and there is not circle-of-_______ conspiracy.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>Good point, Jay. Some of the best collections don't come to market due to highly informed, calculated, opportnistic timing. They are sold by an executor to liquidate an estate for inheritances. Look at some great ones that sold in bad markets. Although the circumstances of the liquidation were different, the non-gold portions of the grand Eliasberg collection sold at a really crappy time, the mid-90s. (I credit that sale with the beginning of this market's slow pull up.)
Another thing to point out is that having a lot of money doesn't mean one has all of the correct answers on money matters. Some do; some don't. Some would say putting a lot into coins is a foolish risk of money (not in the Motley sense), indicating the coin side is not their brutallt serious money. However, a lot of money folks (especially those with a head for coins) can be alarmingly involved in even minute details on transactions. The point is that there is no rule that applies to all and there is not circle-of-_______ conspiracy. >>
Would the Texas Bank/Browning collection come to mind?
here was one of the finest Gold collections ever assembled, and he died young. The unfortunate timing of his heirs auction...October 29/30 2001. Just 6 weeks after 9/11.
That's not market timing. Many others arent either.
Interesting counterpoints from someone here who always seems to be obsessed with transparent and immature attempts at trying to impress others here.
To address the additional counterpoints here, they have all be strongly made by those with a powerful vested interest in expensive collections or those who make a living as a retail dealer in the market and are therefore highly biased. The fact remains that a significant number of owners of top level collections and very expensive rarities have chosen to cash out now and I believe it may be a long and painful summer for those bidding moon money at FUN.