WOW Mozin, I think that is one of the nicest Large Star 1807 O-114 I have ever seen. If you ever sell that please let me give you an offer on her. If I can afford it at that time, it will be a nice QUICK sale
I think a lot of collectors are incorrectly calling the O-112 "The Large Star", maybe because they have never even seen an O-114 in hand. The grading services often call the O-112 "Large Star".
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
My thanks to stman, the original poster. Here's an 1807 small letter half that I purchased in 1982 for $50. I don't collect Bust Halves by date, but I was intrigued by this particular coin. It has all of the characteristics shown in jrocco's close-up photos, but also has a vertical die break through the "0" in the date, leading me to believe it's a later die state. The reverse die break extends from UNITED through the tips of the leaves of the olive branch, 50c, and to the eagle's wingtip on the right side of the coin. There is still some luster in the lettering and devices around the periphery. With the weak strike, I'm not sure what the grade would be. Does anyone have an idea?
Your Small Star 1807 is O-113a R3. This marriage is very difficult to grade from pictures, because of the weak center strike characteristics, and the importance of luster. Your coin has about the right details for the AU grade with NGC or ANACS, but the luster should be still showing somewhat in the fields to be called AU. There also appears to be a lot of handling marks on your coin, which would drop the grade further. My guess would be NGC 40 grade based on what you say and what I see in the pictures.
Your $50 purchase, if in an NGC 40 holder, would be worth at least $1000 in today's market. If you submit your coin to a grading service, be sure to report back to this thread with the results.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Here is my last 1807. Time for someone else to show off their Busties.
Some diagnostics for 50/inverted 5 1807 O-112 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. Widest date of 1807 CBHs, and a “0” that looks too large.
Reverse: There is a centering dot in the field, not attached to the eagle’s left shoulder. A die dot shows in field below lowest arrowhead. Arrowheads are ribbed, and recut. “I” is under the crossbar of “T” at right end. (Reverse is LDS of O-111.)
Note: The Overton fourth edition lists an O-112a with a cud at top of “U”. This cud has NOT been shown to exist.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Ok Mozin, I've got one with some detail... 1807 O-113a LDS, just a regular post for me. A couple of questions come to mind on this... Why were the letters of the Headband and Scroll engraved with horizontal lines? And an unlisted die state, later than Overton, maybe only a handful of examples may exist?? So for now 113.3 R-3?( Is that right Brad?)
Small stars distant from the Segments, left serif of 1 missing.Obv. 10.
The extent of the crack from the date up to the Clasp.
Cracks beyond Overton's description, including die chips in stars 2 & 3.
Reverse I LDS.
Letters of the scroll with horizontal crosslines, O/P states Bottom of letters, I would say most of !
(LDS) Two die chips at the top right of scroll, this die crack extends to under the "E", a second crack forms above the second die chip and run to the right leg of "M". The die crack running from "S OF Amer" exits out the rim.
The extended cracks to 50 C. now continue to the right wing.
The center dot half buried in the Eagle's shoulder.
So for stman, here's one for you to compare to your wonderful group of 07's!
Nysoto says... Are 1807 113's usually oversized? By how much? What are some possible reasons for this?
I don't know how much they are oversized, but a few reasons maybe a new design type from the Draped Bust design. A lower relief style and the conical finishing of the dies shoulders, not done previously (eliminating what your half shows...cuds). Many factors, when considering the poor striking characteristics of this low relief type. The 113 was the first of this new type struck. A thought here to maybe with Dave Finkelsteins Segment count of 152 on the 113 that the dies were slightly larger. As compared to the other 07's at 141, 142 & 145. Just my thought to your questions Nysoto... Mike
I noticed only a few 113s as being oversized and they were all late state coins. The distance from the stars to the rim is exaggerated to a considerable extent, and although I never measured any with a calipers, the extra diameter is probably 2-3 mm. No guess as to how this happened. Definitely something to study!
Edited to add- Richard Pugh had a low grade VVLDS that was sold with his set that was supposed to be the latest he had ever seen, but the details escape me. If someone checks that catalog, there may be something to add.
For what it is worth, I have two examples of the O-113 die marriage.
One is an Intermediate Die State with only the first reverse die crack as mentioned in the O/P book. It has no obverse die crack. With a caliper it measures almost exactly 33 mm in diameter. (By "almost exactly," I mean "dead on", maybe towards the plus side, not the minus side.)
My second coin is the O-113a. It it much like Mozin's coin pictured above with the die chips at star 2, etc. It also measures 33 mm - as exactly as my caliper can tell me. The caliper stops on the right side of the stand of the line for 33 mm.
(This is not my largest diameter Bustie. My largest Bustie in diameter is the 1808 O-104a with a diameter of 33.2+ mm.)
Years ago, before I encapsulated all my CBHs, I kept them in individual Capital holders. Capital had a reaming tool, which became a necessity for me. Many of my early date CBHs would not even begin to fit into the factory provided hole. Many of the later date specimens needed plastic flip pieces just to wedge them in better.
I never did go around measuring Busties with a caliper like Ed.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
I had a thought, that the Mint's Mechanic (Machinest's of the time), the tapering of the finished die was a new approach. Micrometers were not invented as of yet, so a caliper would have been used. Still the die was turned down by hand, the slightest adjustment could make the +/- difference. 32.5mm or 33.0, ( or whatever thousands of an inch) not to much by hand tolerances back then. Or maybe they (The Mint) got in a new batch of (English) Cast Steel, that annealed differently that the Blister Steel they have been using. This may also account for the poor strikings, more die than planchet. Are there any fully struck 113's? Or are they all run of the mill strikes?
**My one unanswered question of why are there horizontal lines in the letters of the headband and scroll? They look to be hand engraved, is it a Scot thing for the NEW die design, like the guesstiment of the 13th Star being Scot's signature? Questions, questions...will the true answers ever be found?
I don't think the finished die was tapered, but rather the die stock was tapered and then finished. Also, Scot's contribution to the die making process was probably nil, and Reich was making dies earlier than anyone today realizes. In Karl Moulton's new book, "Henry Voight and Others Involved With America's Early Coinage" Moulton's examination of Mint records reveals that Reich was empolyed at Voight's shop and was subbed out to the mint for die preparation in 1806, which means he was well aware of the failed engineering of half dollar dies before he was officially hired in March of '07.
Any of you who haven't yet purchased this book should email Karl at numiscats@aol.com or PM him here at Firstmint. It is a must read.
As for the different sized 113s, I have no idea if this was strike related or if some larger than normal planchets were somehow made. There are also large sized 1809 O.105s.
I have one example of 1807 113a, and is considerably oversized, aorund 33.6 mm (I can't remember exactly). I have heard stories of collectors who needed to scrape the hole larger to get 113's in albums, quite a few must be oversized. On my example, I compared the distance on each of the lettered edge die length to an normal sized planchet, and there was no expansion on the lettered edge. There was more space inbetween the two edge dies (about 3mm, equal to the 1mm diameter difference x pi). If the coin was oversized as the result of a striking anomoly, the edge lettering would have also expanded, with my coin it did not, the planchet itself was oversized before striking.
It would be interesting to know exactly when the die shaped changed from cylindrical to conical, 1805 obv 1 and 1806 obv 11 (and 1806 110) are some of the few dies that still exist. Did the other denomination dies also change to conical shape at this time? Lots of edge cuds in other denominations. I think this was the main reason for the edge cuds going away in late 1806, other factors could include the switching of the hammer and anvil dies (per Pilliod's JRJ article), a planned reduction in striking pressure, hubbing changes, and a gradual improvement in the annealing/hardening/tempering process of the dies.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
<< <i>the edge lettering would have also expanded, with my coin it did not, the planchet itself was oversized before striking. >>
I agree and hadn't thought of it. Since it is even more unlikely that a different sized planchet punch was used, could this be due to the Castaing being set differently?
With no surviving 1807 DBH dies to refute my thought process, I'd guess that this is when the shape was changed, especially knowing that Reich, an excellent mechanic, was working for the mint at this time and certainly saw the spectacular die failures of 1806.
The 1805 obv 1 was shown in the Craig Sholley JRCS presentation, along with 1806 obv 11, the 1806 is with the ANS, I don't know where the 1805 resides, Sheridan would know. The presentation mentions 1806 110 obverse as surviving, if I remember right.
edit - the dies were shown as images, they were not physically at the presentation.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Let me correct myself with the mention of Scot, keyboard error & not thought (Reich)! Seems rather odd, that with a fixed punch in the planchet machine that oversized blanks would come about! slumlord98 says......Mint records reveals that Reich was employed at Voight's shop and was subbed out to the mint for die preparation in 1806. Being reject for employment (or left waiting) he had to do something to survive, only to be farmed into the Mint later. The eg de lettering (Castaing machine) wasn't a purchased one from Europe, but made in Philadelphia. Possibilities of miss alignment could have occurred in the die stock itself or the spacing between the dies. Craig Sholley JRCS presentation, yes he did mention the 06 - 110.
<< <i>Being reject for employment (or left waiting >>
Reich worked for the Mint in 1801 preparing the dies for the Jefferson IPM, then the Jefferson inaugural medals, which impressed Jefferson to write to his daughter- "I enclose you a medal executed by an artist lately from Europe and who appears to be equal to any in the world." That Reich wasn't immediately hired was due to layoffs forced on Boudinot. This is when many in Congress were clamoring for the Mint to be closed.
Again, this Voight book should be on everyone's shelf who has an interest in early US coins!
Henry Voigt and Others Involved with America's Early Coinage by Karl Moulton is an excellent, well-written book.
I have read it twice. It deserves another read through.
...also Karl Moulton is a great source for numismatic literature and reference material. Karl's current 51 page catalog/inventory printout shows an assortment of auction catalogs from the 20th Century, literature from the 19th Century, etc. His prices are very reasonable. (He has the American Journal of Numismatics from the 1860's, 1870's, etc.)
This is off the subject of 1807 Busties, so I will not say more.
Regards,
Ed R.
PS: This is a voluntary advertisement given without Karl's permission.
Mozin's Call for more Busties to take off the list.... And die states.
Called for the unusual die state of 1807 O-111.3 "The Bearded Goddess" Overton's description here... Same as the a state except the crack from the chest to the chin has now become a heavy break, forming a solid lump just above the chest and extending in lighter cracks up along the nose and across the eye to the headband. Down across the bust and just left of the 1 to the segments. Later states develop another crack from the first above the eye, across the curls headband at "E" into the cap
Close-up of the die crack through to the cap.
There is often debate among collectors of this state, when is it or not O-111.3
Interesting Mike, but I will hold out for the full late die state you mentioned above. I want to see the obverse crack across Miss Liberty's eye to headband at E, and up into the cap. Close on your coin, but not quite enough to eliminate from the missing DS list.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Nice bearded goddess! I've always been skeptical of the rarity of this marriage however. It always seems like there is a couple available at any given time. These two (One and Two) at JJ are just a few of the ones i've seen in the last few days.
Is this just a case where the distinguishing die break and catchy name mean that almost every bearded goddess has been found and are clearly advertised as opposed to the other tough die marriages whose differences are much, much subtler when compared to other coins of the date?
Mark
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
The Bearded Lady is so well known, and so easy to see, that I believe most all of the Bearded Goddesses have been discovered. When and if I ever buy one, I expect it will be no bargain.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
prenum It's a beauty. It has both die cracks in the headband, the "I" and The "E". Alot of the cracks have advanced to die chips now, What do you think the culprit is???? Of course....
Die Clashing, it came to play a major part at destroying the working dies of the early U.S. Mint.
I posted pics of this O-113a almost 5 years ago, and later sent it in to PCGS, where it was graded AU50. I believe I've posted it before on another thread, but this is where it belongs. Here are better pics with a new camera.
Well, I haven't chased down an 1807 CBH in quite some time. I found one but only problem is after asking the seller 2 times if it had a certain issue I was concerned about..... no answer. Answered other questions, but not the main one. So me no buy. I think I have my answer . Anyway...... 100!
And thanks to the seller for saving me a bunch of hard earned cash.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
Comments
I think that is one of the nicest Large Star 1807 O-114 I have ever seen.
If you ever sell that please let me give you an offer on her. If I can afford it at that time, it will be a nice QUICK sale
My 1807 O-114 is not as pretty as Mozin's O-114.
My excuse is that Mozin is an "Old Guy." He was able to find his coin WAY BACK when they were cheap.
Here is my O-114:
Thanks for the compliment on my coin.
--------------------------------------------------------
edmerlr,
Bought back in 1995, not so long ago.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I think a lot of collectors are incorrectly calling the O-112 "The Large Star", maybe because they have never even seen an O-114 in hand. The grading services often call the O-112 "Large Star".
Jim
Welcome to our CU Capped Bust Half Dollar series.
Your Small Star 1807 is O-113a R3. This marriage is very difficult to grade from pictures, because of the weak center strike characteristics, and the importance of luster. Your coin has about the right details for the AU grade with NGC or ANACS, but the luster should be still showing somewhat in the fields to be called AU. There also appears to be a lot of handling marks on your coin, which would drop the grade further. My guess would be NGC 40 grade based on what you say and what I see in the pictures.
Your $50 purchase, if in an NGC 40 holder, would be worth at least $1000 in today's market. If you submit your coin to a grading service, be sure to report back to this thread with the results.
Some diagnostics for 50/inverted 5 1807 O-112 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. Widest date of 1807 CBHs, and a “0” that looks too large.
Reverse: There is a centering dot in the field, not attached to the eagle’s left shoulder. A die dot shows in field below lowest arrowhead. Arrowheads are ribbed, and recut. “I” is under the crossbar of “T” at right end. (Reverse is LDS of O-111.)
Note: The Overton fourth edition lists an O-112a with a cud at top of “U”. This cud has NOT been shown to exist.
I really like the first 112 you posted with the crusty toned look.
I'll dig around for something to add here.
<< <i>here, I'll show one
damn, Mike, that is sweet!
1807 O-113a LDS, just a regular post for me.
A couple of questions come to mind on this...
Why were the letters of the Headband and Scroll engraved with horizontal lines?
And an unlisted die state, later than Overton, maybe only a handful of examples may exist??
So for now 113.3 R-3?( Is that right Brad?)
Small stars distant from the Segments, left serif of 1 missing.Obv. 10.
The extent of the crack from the date up to the Clasp.
Cracks beyond Overton's description, including die chips in stars 2 & 3.
Reverse I LDS.
Letters of the scroll with horizontal crosslines, O/P states Bottom of letters, I would say most of !
(LDS) Two die chips at the top right of scroll, this die crack extends to under the "E",
a second crack forms above the second die chip and run to the right leg of "M".
The die crack running from "S OF Amer" exits out the rim.
The extended cracks to 50 C. now continue to the right wing.
The center dot half buried in the Eagle's shoulder.
So for stman, here's one for you to compare to your wonderful group of 07's!
Mike...
Here are some larger pictures of the 1807 O-113a I posted earlier. It appears to be much the same DS as yours.
Are 1807 113's usually oversized?
By how much?
What are some possible reasons for this?
I don't know how much they are oversized, but a few reasons maybe a new design type from the Draped Bust design.
A lower relief style and the conical finishing of the dies shoulders, not done previously (eliminating what your half shows...cuds).
Many factors, when considering the poor striking characteristics of this low relief type.
The 113 was the first of this new type struck.
A thought here to maybe with Dave Finkelsteins Segment count of 152 on the 113 that the dies were slightly larger.
As compared to the other 07's at 141, 142 & 145.
Just my thought to your questions Nysoto...
Mike
Edited to add- Richard Pugh had a low grade VVLDS that was sold with his set that was supposed to be the latest he had ever seen, but the details escape me. If someone checks that catalog, there may be something to add.
One is an Intermediate Die State with only the first reverse die crack as mentioned in the O/P book. It has no obverse die crack. With a caliper it measures almost exactly 33 mm in diameter. (By "almost exactly," I mean "dead on", maybe towards the plus side, not the minus side.)
My second coin is the O-113a. It it much like Mozin's coin pictured above with the die chips at star 2, etc. It also measures 33 mm - as exactly as my caliper can tell me. The caliper stops on the right side of the stand of the line for 33 mm.
(This is not my largest diameter Bustie. My largest Bustie in diameter is the 1808 O-104a with a diameter of 33.2+ mm.)
Regards,
Ed R.
I never did go around measuring Busties with a caliper like Ed.
...you have something against calipers?
...or the collecting mind-set that requires one to use calipers?
(That big trophy fish you caught [back in you heyday] would not have been so big - had you had calipers with you to measure it.)
Ed R.
PS: I know what you implied when you used Busties and calipers in the same sentence. ...but I am keeping my mind out of the gutter.
Micrometers were not invented as of yet, so a caliper would have been used.
Still the die was turned down by hand, the slightest adjustment could make the +/- difference.
32.5mm or 33.0, ( or whatever thousands of an inch) not to much by hand tolerances back then.
Or maybe they (The Mint) got in a new batch of (English) Cast Steel, that annealed differently that the Blister Steel they have been using.
This may also account for the poor strikings, more die than planchet.
Are there any fully struck 113's? Or are they all run of the mill strikes?
**My one unanswered question of why are there horizontal lines in the letters of the headband and scroll?
They look to be hand engraved, is it a Scot thing for the NEW die design, like the guesstiment of the 13th Star being Scot's signature?
Questions, questions...will the true answers ever be found?
Mike...
Any of you who haven't yet purchased this book should email Karl at numiscats@aol.com or PM him here at Firstmint. It is a must read.
As for the different sized 113s, I have no idea if this was strike related or if some larger than normal planchets were somehow made. There are also large sized 1809 O.105s.
It would be interesting to know exactly when the die shaped changed from cylindrical to conical, 1805 obv 1 and 1806 obv 11 (and 1806 110) are some of the few dies that still exist. Did the other denomination dies also change to conical shape at this time? Lots of edge cuds in other denominations. I think this was the main reason for the edge cuds going away in late 1806, other factors could include the switching of the hammer and anvil dies (per Pilliod's JRJ article), a planned reduction in striking pressure, hubbing changes, and a gradual improvement in the annealing/hardening/tempering process of the dies.
<< <i>the edge lettering would have also expanded, with my coin it did not, the planchet itself was oversized before striking. >>
I agree and hadn't thought of it. Since it is even more unlikely that a different sized planchet punch was used, could this be due to the Castaing being set differently?
With no surviving 1807 DBH dies to refute my thought process, I'd guess that this is when the shape was changed, especially knowing that Reich, an excellent mechanic, was working for the mint at this time and certainly saw the spectacular die failures of 1806.
Nysoto, where is 1805 obv. 1?
edit - the dies were shown as images, they were not physically at the presentation.
Seems rather odd, that with a fixed punch in the planchet machine that
oversized blanks would come about!
slumlord98 says......Mint records reveals that Reich was employed at Voight's shop and was subbed out to the mint for die preparation in 1806.
Being reject for employment (or left waiting) he had to do something to survive, only to be farmed into the Mint later.
The eg de lettering (Castaing machine) wasn't a purchased one from Europe, but made in Philadelphia.
Possibilities of miss alignment could have occurred in the die stock itself or the spacing between the dies.
Craig Sholley JRCS presentation, yes he did mention the 06 - 110.
<< <i>Being reject for employment (or left waiting >>
Reich worked for the Mint in 1801 preparing the dies for the Jefferson IPM, then the Jefferson inaugural medals, which impressed Jefferson to write to his daughter- "I enclose you a medal executed by an artist lately from Europe and who appears to be equal to any in the world." That Reich wasn't immediately hired was due to layoffs forced on Boudinot. This is when many in Congress were clamoring for the Mint to be closed.
Again, this Voight book should be on everyone's shelf who has an interest in early US coins!
Here's a link to a book review MOULTON HENRY VOIGHT BOOK NOW AVAILABLE
From The eSylum - Volume 10 (2007)
Mike
I have read it twice. It deserves another read through.
...also Karl Moulton is a great source for numismatic literature and reference material. Karl's current 51 page catalog/inventory printout shows an assortment of auction catalogs from the 20th Century, literature from the 19th Century, etc. His prices are very reasonable. (He has the American Journal of Numismatics from the 1860's, 1870's, etc.)
This is off the subject of 1807 Busties, so I will not say more.
Regards,
Ed R.
PS: This is a voluntary advertisement given without Karl's permission.
And die states.
Called for the unusual die state of 1807 O-111.3 "The Bearded Goddess"
Overton's description here...
Same as the a state except the crack from the chest to the chin has now become a heavy break,
forming a solid lump just above the chest and extending in lighter cracks up along the nose and across
the eye to the headband.
Down across the bust and just left of the 1 to the segments.
Later states develop another crack from the first above the eye, across the curls headband at "E" into the cap
Close-up of the die crack through to the cap.
There is often debate among collectors of this state, when is it or not O-111.3
Mike
Is this just a case where the distinguishing die break and catchy name mean that almost every bearded goddess has been found and are clearly advertised as opposed to the other tough die marriages whose differences are much, much subtler when compared to other coins of the date?
Mark
But Yes, it's the "E", I added a close-up in the post.
Premium Numismatics, Inc.
myurl
800-596-COIN
Super example of the late die state Bearded Goddess. Some day, maybe, I can find a nice XF specimen to add to my collection.
It has both die cracks in the headband, the "I" and The "E".
Alot of the cracks have advanced to die chips now,
What do you think the culprit is????
Of course....
Die Clashing, it came to play a major part at destroying the working dies of the early U.S. Mint.
Neat overlay. It sure shows where the lower beard break juts out from the eagle's beak. Never thought about it before.
Now that I'm out of money for the year, I thought I would pick up this rare bird.
It's an 1807 O-111a (R5) which I would call F-12 (plus or minus a grade due to weak strikes on both sides)
Jim
zap
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
Lance.
Lance.
And thanks to the seller for saving me a bunch of hard earned cash.