From QDB's Obsolete Currency book-- does the Bank of New York have a hoard of Fugio cents today?

Longacre

I was reading QDB's Obsolete Currency book. It is spectacular. In one section, he discusses the Bank of New York in the "Early Banks of New York" section. Here is an excerpt of the text: "The first bank in the Empire State was the Bank of New York, which commenced business in New York City on June 9, 1784, without a charter. The original business plan was drawn up by Alexander Hamilton. In 1789 he petitioned the legislature for a charter in order to limit the liability of the shareholders, but this was not given until 1791 ... ."

An then there was this footnote, and some additional text (FYI-- if you read a QDB book, always read the footnotes. He tends to put a lot of juicy tidbits in them): "At some point in the early era the bank acquired thousands of newly minted 1787 Fugio copper cents, which in numismatic circles became known as the Bank of New York Hoard. Although many of these coins have been distributed over the years, the bank still retains a large holding."

Then there is more information on another page: "By about 1948, some 1,641 pieces remained in possession of the bank and where numismatically analyzed by Damon G. Douglas. Some are still held by the bank today."

************

Questions:

(1) Has anyone heard of this hoard? Are these pieces on display or kept in the bank's vaults?

(2) What is the purpose of keeping these coins? I took a look at BoNY's 2005 financial statement, and they have assets of $101 billion. I am not an expert on Fugios, but even if there are 1,000 of them on the bank's balance sheet, their value would be a drop in the ocean. What is the bank's purpose for keeping these coins? The coins do not seem like a good investment that provides a quick and liquid return for shareholders. I didn't delve into the balance sheet to see where these coins might be listed in the asset section.

(3) How many Fugios are in existance today, and has anyone considered what will happen to the market if BoNY released these coins? Do dealers ever mention this to Fugio purchasers or is it mentioned in auction catalogs when a Fugio is for sale? Is the purchase of a Fugio "risky" given that this hoard exists and can crash the market at a moment's notice?

(4) Has anyone on these boards examined these pieces?

Leiana

I have heard of it, but only because I read about it in the Redbook.

"Ca. 1856 a keg containing several thousand 1787 Fugio copper cents was found at the Bank of New York....Each was in mint state, most with brown toning. For many years these were given out as souveniers and keepsakes to clients. By 1948...there were 1,641 remaining. Today, many remain at the bank and are appreciated for their history and value."

It's listed in the beginning under "Other Famous Hoards."

-Amanda

Gemini

From Dave's other book "American Coin Treasures and Hoards" page 29 he writes:

By about 1948 some 1,641 pieces remained in possession of the bank and were numismatically analyzed by Damon C. Douglas. It was learned that the pieces were made from two batches of planchets weighing on the average of 143 grains and 155 grains respectively. Today numerous Bank of New York Fugio coppers are in private collections, and a selection is in the cabinet of the American Numismatic Society of New York. The typical piece (such as the plentiful Newman variety 12-X) is somewhat casually struck, lightly defined in certain areas (especially the bottom of the obverse), and is apt to have carbon streaks or planchet rifts. Coloration is likely to be a blend of original mint red with brown toning.

Anthony J. Terranova examined the remained of the hoard about 1888 and reviewed 819 coins. These were being kept in a cloth sack. Terranova arranged for their transfer to protective holders. Grades ranged from Red Uncirculated to MS-60, water stained. In addition to the 819 loose pieces, there were 50 or 60 pieces embedded in lucite, which the Bank had done some time ago to present gifts to favored customers.

(There is more information about the hoard and the Banks aquisition of it that I did not include here but in short the Bank was founded in1784 aquired a Keg of new Fugios in 1787 were in the vault and they were found before 1859)

edited: for spell

dorancoins

I was at the local Books-A-Million and looked at QDB's book on obsolete currency. Like all of his book, it was very good. However, the publisher who printed the book need to step up quality control. When i look at the book the cover was right side up, but all the pages were upside down. I might have to get the book as a conversation piece.

291fifth

<< <i>From Dave's other book "American Coin Treasures and Hoards" page 29 he writes:

By about 1948 some 1,641 pieces remained in possession of the bank and were numismatically analyzed by Damon C. Douglas. It was learned that the pieces were made from two batches of planchets weighing on the average of 143 grains and 155 grains respectively. Today numerous Bank of New York Fugio coppers are in private collections, and a selection is in the cabinet of the American Numismatic Society of New York. The typical piece (such as the plentiful Newman variety 12-X) is somewhat casually struck, lightly defined in certain areas (especially the bottom of the obverse), and is apt to have carbon streaks or planchet rifts. Coloration is likely to be a blend of original mint red with brown toning.

Anthony J. Terranova examined the remained of the hoard about 1888 and reviewed 819 coins. These were being kept in a cloth sack. Terranova arranged for their transfer to protective holders. Grades ranged from Red Uncirculated to MS-60, water stained. In addition to the 819 loose pieces, there were 50 or 60 pieces embedded in lucite, which the Bank had done some time ago to present gifts to favored customers.

(There is more information about the hoard and the Banks aquisition of it that I did not include here but in short the Bank was founded in1784 aquired a Keg of new Fugios in 1787 were in the vault and they were found before 1859)

edited: for spell >>



I hope the protective holders they were transfered to weren't PVC flips. Does anyone know?

Gemini

I think the coins were quite safely holdered. Anthony Terranova is a noted Early American coin specialist from New York and a member of the Professional Numismatic Guild from which he received a lifetime Achievement award.

Regulated

OK - so the Bank of New York has a hoard of Fugios (which happens to be the source of most of the Uncirculated pieces out there today). Does anyone know what other incredibly important colonial coins are thought to be related to the Bank of New York and why???

Longacre

<< <i>I was at the local Books-A-Million and looked at QDB's book on obsolete currency. Like all of his book, it was very good. However, the publisher who printed the book need to step up quality control. When i look at the book the cover was right side up, but all the pages were upside down. I might have to get the book as a conversation piece. >>




I agree. The content of the book is great. The binding, however, is not the greatest and I wish the quality of the binding was a little bit better. I sent a PM to board member Dentuck about this.

RWB

The result of cheap Chinese printing.

Regulated

No takers?

Gemini

Hmmm ..I'm trying to think of the possibilities but can't really tie anything to the Bank. Could it be Brasher? Washington pieces? Vermont coinage or Machins Mills? Nova Eborac?... there I covered it all maybe?..maybe not...

Regulated

It is the Brasher Doubloon. Anyone know why?

coindeuce

Brasher was married to a TenEyck, the TenEyck family being of great influence in the establishment of the Bank of New York???????

Gemini

How ironic coindeuce I used to live on Ten Eyck Walk in ole Williamburg Brooklyn...haven't seen that name in some time...now back to solving the Brasher mystery???...

Gemini

Does it have to do with Brasher and Baileys plan to make coppers? or Brasher in working for the Bank identifying counterfeits? other than that I don't know or find much. Am I getting warm or cold?

Regulated

Brasher regulated gold coins to the Bank of New York standard of 1784. Regulation was the process whereby a goldsmith would alter the weight of a coin to correspond to a locally accepted standard for that sort of coin.

These standards developed in North America during the mid-18th century in response to the lack of a standard coinage for the British Colonies. Day to day business that required the use of gold coins was transacted using a wide variety of coins: Guineas from Great Britain, French Louis D'Or, Italian Zecchini, Portuguese Reis and Spanish Escudos. These coins were often underweight, usually because they had been clipped or sweated by unscrupulous people intent upon extracting gold from the coins before passing them on. In an attempt to simplify trade, local authorities would publish tables listing commonly encountered coins, their minimum acceptable weights and the value at which they were accepted (assuming that they were the right weight).

The problem with these tables was that the coins in circulation rarely weighed exactly what they were supposed to. Consequently, goldsmiths began cutting heavy coins down to the standard, or plugging them with additional gold when they were underweight. After the piece was regulated, the smith would then punch it with his hallmark in order to designate that it had been brought to standard.

About 200 of these gold pieces are known today, at least 50 of which bear the hallmark of Ephraim Brasher. Interestingly, most regulated coins are Portuguese or Brazilian 6400-Reis, often called Half-Joes. While these pieces were commonly used in North America during the 18th century, some of the most ubiquitous gold coins in the colonies were from the Spanish Colonies in Latin America; oddly, these coins are rarely found countermarked and cut to any of the late 18th century standards.

What does this have to do with the Brasher Doubloon?

To be continued...

Hoot

The BoNY hoard of Fugios is what makes a MS example of one of these excellent coins affordable today.

Hoot

Gemini

Thanks Dave looking forwards to the next installment.

MikeKing

great post!


hey Gemini, I lived in Bay Ridge Brooklyn for a few years when I was a student.