I think it's sad when a major dealer resorts to using the PCGS price guide to sell junk slabs.
Russ
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Russ
Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
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<< <i>Hey at least the PCGS price guide isn't their asking price. >>
Something about that seems just plain...nuts! If it's worth $110 in a PCGS slab, why not just have it slabbed? And if it's not MS-69 (which I suspect it can't be, if that price is correct) why point a buyer to a piece of information that lets them know you're not giving it an honest grade?
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>If it's worth $110 in a PCGS slab, why not just have it slabbed? >>
First, it isn't. It's more like $70 in a PCGS slab. And, if the images of this coin are accurate, it's worth about $5 - for the entire proof set it came in.
Russ, NCNE
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Besides, they have an excellent return policy.
Way back when they would hardly touch a NGC slab. And now.....
Ken
<< <i>Shame on you DLRC.
And, these guys are one of my favorites. >>
It looks like they have a script that just sticks that in. The actual pricing of the coin doesn't seem to be based on the PCGS price, so I don't see this as a particularly heinous breach.
I agree.
<< <i>It looks like they have a script that just sticks that in. The actual pricing of the coin doesn't seem to be based on the PCGS price, so I don't see this as a particularly heinous breach. >>
Here's the problem. They PCGS price guide says $110, and they want $26 for the coin. A newb might look at that and think "WOW! A bargain!" and snap it up. It's a $5 coin that can be had at any shop or show.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>It looks like they have a script that just sticks that in. The actual pricing of the coin doesn't seem to be based on the PCGS price, so I don't see this as a particularly heinous breach. >>
Here's the problem. They PCGS price guide says $110, and they want $26 for the coin. A newb might look at that and think "WOW! A bargain!" and snap it up. It's a $5 coin that can be had at any shop or show.
Russ, NCNE >>
I'm with Russ on this one. By listing the PCGS price and selling a 3rd tier slab, DLRC puts the burden of knowledge on the buyer. And the buyer maybe uninformed and think they are getting a great deal b/c their only data point is the PCGS price. My opinion is good dealers do the work for you (pick nice coins, avoid 3rd tier slabs, etc).
<< <i>
<< <i>It looks like they have a script that just sticks that in. The actual pricing of the coin doesn't seem to be based on the PCGS price, so I don't see this as a particularly heinous breach. >>
Here's the problem. They PCGS price guide says $110, and they want $26 for the coin. A newb might look at that and think "WOW! A bargain!" and snap it up. It's a $5 coin that can be had at any shop or show.
Russ, NCNE >>
Thats a good point.
A single-* has the lowest possible eye appeal; *** is an average, decent coin; **** is above-average - very nice for the grade.
***** (5-stars) is reserved for coins with exceptional eye appeal.
THE COIN LISTED HAS A 5 STAR RATING????
As someone mentioned it doesn't even look like it is Cam.
Did anyone email him and let him know????
I am sure it would get fixed.
Obviously an oversight.
Rookie Joe
Just because a coin is in a "junk slab" doesn't make the coin "junk." They have a return policy if the buyer is not totally delighted with purchase?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Joe
"Thank you all for the feedback posted here. I agree completely with the sentiment here. Frankly, the only way we end up with these in inventory is part of large collections which have them. Based on this, we have decided to pull the NTC coins from our site and not offer them for retail sale."
Whatever happened to "buy (and, presumably, sell) the coin, not the holder"? Reference to the PCGS price guide (Russ's point) is another matter, and he's right.
<< <i>Here's the problem. They PCGS price guide says $110, and they want $26 for the coin. A newb might look at that and think "WOW! A bargain!" and snap it up. It's a $5 coin that can be had at any shop or show. >>
way, the PCGS online guide is NOT just for PCGS coins, but for any properly graded coin.
The real issue is that they should not pollute their site with garbage like that. I am not referring to the Kennedy Half in general, but rather PCI gold label slabs. And for what? A $28 coin. With the time and effort involved here, what's the potential profit? They should have another outlet to move that type of "shhhhhhh......stuff".
<< <i> By the way, the PCGS online guide is NOT just for PCGS coins, but for any properly graded coin. >>
Ummm....I don't think PCGS would agree with that. If I recall, HRH has stated before that PCGS believes that the PCGS price guide is ONLY for coins in PCGS slabs.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I wonder if it is coded into their site. You should ask them about it. They sure aren't pricing it that way. >>
Let's say it is coded into their site. So what? It makes no difference, it's still their fault. If they want to sell slabs that are not PCGS, they need to tell their programmer to uncode it, or make it only show for PCGS slabbed coins.
The reasoning behind the new feature is that we're attempting to give all of the buyers as much information as possible regarding their coins. We've recently started an auction prices realized, added the CU price information, and are continuing to add some other price features.
Unfortunately there are some coins out there that don't have pricing info via Trends, greysheet, numismedia, etc., but there may be a CU price, so we thought it would be a nice addition. It's just another point of reference that would hopefully be good for the consumer. We're editing, growing, and re-thinking our website daily, so do know that your feedback will be heard. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me and I'll try to help answer if at all possible.
Thanks!
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
<< <i>Wow, tough crowd!
The reasoning behind the new feature is that we're attempting to give all of the buyers as much information as possible regarding their coins. We've recently started an auction prices realized, added the CU price information, and are continuing to add some other price features. There are other coin companies that are using these features, and we thought it would be a helpful addition.
Unfortunately there are some coins out there that don't have pricing info via Trends, greysheet, numismedia, etc., but there may be a CU price, so we thought it would be a nice addition. In no way are we going to be charging full CU prices on coins or even boasting of what the CU number is to sell our pieces, it's just another point of reference that would hopefully be good for the consumer. We're editing, growing, and re-thinking our website daily, so do know that your feedback will be heard. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me and I'll try to help answer if at all possible.
Thanks! >>
It's a tough crowd because people here generally have a lot of respect and admiration for the people and business model of DLRC, at least that's my impression. To offer PCI or "obviously erroneously graded" coins with the PCGS price guide suggestively saying "what a deal" and not having a DLRC professional numismatist's opinion as to "real grade" smacks of misrepresentation. Ebay sellers of low repute do this kind of stuff all the time ... I think DLRC should do better.
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
I fully understand about buying groups of coins and all that come with them. But -- tieing the PCGS price guide to inferior slabs in any way gives a bad impression to unknowing potential buyers who might think they're getting a bargain, and to aware folks who may perceive it as an attempt to buffalo the unknowing. To those of us who have shopped with DLRC for many years and hold them in the highest regard among coin sellers, it makes us disappointed that either group might get that impression.
<< <i>Thanks Barndog. I actually just PM'd another member about the PCI coin. I'm going to have it removed tomorrow and try to figure out how this coin was put on the site as well. We are in no way trying to mislead the consumer regarding this piece and we acknowledge the mistake in having listed a coin in a holder whose grade may not be justified. We have so many coins coming in and out every day sometimes we make mistakes, and typically we don't even describe extremely cheap coins, because frankly it can be a waste of time. So, to some it up, thanks for pointing out the PCI coin and I'll make sure the coin is free from it's plastic very soon! >>
thanks -- that's what people expect of DLRC.
<< <i>Wow, tough crowd!
The reasoning behind the new feature is that we're attempting to give all of the buyers as much information as possible regarding their coins. We've recently started an auction prices realized, added the CU price information, and are continuing to add some other price features. There are other coin companies that are using these features, and we thought it would be a helpful addition.
Unfortunately there are some coins out there that don't have pricing info via Trends, greysheet, numismedia, etc., but there may be a CU price, so we thought it would be a nice addition. In no way are we going to be charging full CU prices on coins or even boasting of what the CU number is to sell our pieces, it's just another point of reference that would hopefully be good for the consumer. We're editing, growing, and re-thinking our website daily, so do know that your feedback will be heard. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me and I'll try to help answer if at all possible.
Thanks! >>
Any dealer who uses the PCGS price guide for NON-PCGS graded coins is not being honest nor will I respect them.
If you are selling a coin and use that guide, make it a PCGS coin. If you want to use some other guide # then use the REDBOOK. That is for ALL properly graded coins. Right? It may not be the most accurate, but neither is the PCGS guide.
Or, do a little work, get permission, and use greysheet.
Using the PCGS price guide for non-PCGS coins, particularly 3rd tier TPG, is pretty bad, imho.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>It's a tough crowd because people here generally have a lot of respect and admiration for the people and business model of DLRC, at least that's my impression. To offer PCI or "obviously erroneously graded" coins with the PCGS price guide suggestively saying "what a deal" and not having a DLRC professional numismatist's opinion as to "real grade" smacks of misrepresentation. Ebay sellers of low repute do this kind of stuff all the time ... I think DLRC should do better. >>
DLRC used to go to shows and educate collectors on the finer points of the coins they secialized in (Barbers). Since the founder's passing, they have tried to become an auction company, have concentrated their efforts on their website, have stopped selling raw coins, and have lost their former collector base. The link in the first post convinces me that the remnants of this company have sunk to the tactics of the typical eBay coin PowerSeller.
Will DLRC try to bring back the good karma DL once exuded?
<< <i>How about the other PCI COINS LISTED ON YOUR SITE?? WASHINGTON QTR 1934 DOUBLE DIE 1934 F12 >>
Did I miss something here? You were the guy that got outed for screwing around with AT coins. Why are you busting balls?
Edit to fix italics.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>PCGS Price Guide
With permission from PCGS, we are showing the latest values from the PCGS Price Guide.
The PCGS Price Guide is a guide to assist the coin buying public in determining values for all significant United States rare coins. Find out more at the PCGS Price Guide. >>
I dont see the word reference mentioned at all and this tactic is what we are always ripping the ebay scammers for doing! Over hyping an overpriced coin!
In my opinion, if the price guide is being used then the auction description should state that the guide is for PCGS Graded coins Only and point out the fact that although the PCI Label states PR69 Deep Cameo, the coin would not cross to PCGS as that grade.
Better yet, just leave the PCGS Price Guide off of any non-PCGS graded coins.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How about the other PCI COINS LISTED ON YOUR SITE?? WASHINGTON QTR 1934 DOUBLE DIE 1934 F12 >>
Did I miss something here? You were the guy that got outed for screwing around with AT coins. Why are you busting balls? >>
Why does it matter? If someone is doing something wrong, or different than they stated they would, why does it matter WHO mentions it?
You can get on MOC all you want for what he did (imho) but, so what, if he mentions PCI coins listed by a company/seller that said they would never list them?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Better yet, just leave the PCGS Price Guide off of any non-PCGS graded coins. >>
I agree. The PCGS Price Guide is really only relevant for PCGS graded coins. It's not even really relevant for NGC-graded coins. The only situation where I see the PCGS Price Guide being relevant for a non-PCGS graded coin is if there's some sort of guarantee - "submit to PCGS and we guarantee you'll get this grade or better" or whatnot, not that anyone would do that.
Now if the ad said : "This coin is worth even more than what the price guide states", I might have bid based on reputation alone.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Adding the PCGS price quide to non-PCGS coins is misleading and wrong period. >>
Will they bring those prices in PCGS holders?
Imho its more sad that a price guide is so out of whack and misleading. Where were the numbers derived from?
Second Generation Coin, Currency and Precious Metals Dealer
Coin, Currency or Bullion Questions?
Call anytime 954-493-8811
The idea of linking to all and any guides available is a good one, unfortunatley there are no accurate price guides online, To give a benefit of a doubt I suspect he felt it was the most legit and it would provide people with something to use as a guidline? Was he wrong? If so, wrongs a long way from deceptive in intent.
Regards
Second Generation Coin, Currency and Precious Metals Dealer
Coin, Currency or Bullion Questions?
Call anytime 954-493-8811
Ron, if such is the case, PCGS should make that clear in their price guide verbiage. I have suggested that more than once, and, after being invited to do so by David, even reviewed the language and made editing suggestions. That was about 2 years ago. To my knowledge, nothing ever came of it, even after I sent a reminder some time, much later.
I agree, all it says is:
The prices listed in the PCGS Price Guide are the average dealer asking prices for properly graded United States coins. The prices are compiled from various sources including dealer ads in trade papers, dealer fixed price lists, significant auctions, and activity at major coin shows. Prices for the most actively traded coins are updated daily. Other issues are updated as needed. All prices are reviewed at least once a month.
JbatDavidLawrence actually thanked you guys for the comments. He must be a nice guy.