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1824 - The 13th Informative Picture Thread on the Capped Bust Half Dollar Series
Bruceswar
Posts: 2,869
The 1824 was a great year for the Capped Bust Halfs. I say this because we got some of the best overdates of the whole series. We got the 4 over 1, 4 over 4, and 4 over various dates. This just makes for great collecting fun. Most of these varieties can be easily seen. With a total mintage of 3,504,954 this makes this a coin which can found with ease. This is a great date for a type set. Here is a link to the rest of the threads. Capped Bust Series
Here we have an 1824 O-103 R2, which is the 4 over various dates. This has got to be one of the coolest coins in any grade for a Capped Bust Half. This is the perfect circulated coin if you ask me. Does not get any better than this.
Here we have an 1824 O-103 R2, which is the 4 over various dates. This has got to be one of the coolest coins in any grade for a Capped Bust Half. This is the perfect circulated coin if you ask me. Does not get any better than this.
0
Comments
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
Here is another 1824/various O-103
Obverse 2 with Reverse C
Some characteristics of this marriage are:
Obv- Small center dot on neck, stars large and mostly flat and the date is an overdate just listed as 1824 over a date unknown
Rev-Right side of T and left side of I in line,crossbars 2 and 3 extend to the right of shield, line 1 of stripe 1 extends to crossbar 5
Bruceswar,thanks for getting the 1824 year started.I have a 1824/various,but I'm hoping JRocco will re-post his
that he showed before,its way nicer than mine.This coin is 1824,O-115,R2.Obv.stars are large and
close to the milling.Rev I centered under T,AM touch at the base.Some don't like this mottled toning,
but I do .There is alot of coin under the toning on this one.
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
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Some diagnostics for 1824 O-107 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to the upper half of a dentil. Star 7 is close to, and points to the front edge of the cap. “24” is lower than “18” at base. “2” has a long pointed curl.
Reverse: A large dot is left of the too short crossbar 5. “5” is large with a curved top. “U” and “N” are joined at their tops. Left side of “I” under right side of “T”.
Obv. die 9 and Rev. die I
O-117
Obv. die 14 and Rev. die P
Capped Bust Half Series
Capped Bust Half Dime Series
Capped Bust Half Series
Capped Bust Half Dime Series
This is Overton 109, distinguishable by the RI joined at the bottom by a die line,
and a recut C (lower left of C).
If you look closely at the 4, you'll see the recut edge, and on the reverse,
the arrow heads are actually joined.
here's the joined RI and the recut C
(regular photos courtesy of Mike Printz)
edited to add: Great job Bruce
Some diagnostics for 1824/1 O-101 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of dentil. “4” is cut over previous “1”.
Reverse: Upper right serif of “U” is higher than upper left serif of “N”. Curved top of “5” is higher than “0”. Centering dot between crossbars 4 & 5 at left. “I” centered under left side of “T”.
Some diagnostics for 1824/various O-103 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. “4” cut over a jumble of cuttings. “24” closer than “182”.
Reverse: “A” and “M” are both rotated CCW. Centering dot between crossbars 4 & 5 at left. Line 1 of stripe 1 extends up to crossbar 5. Left side of “I” under right side of “T”.
Some diagnostics for 1824 O-104 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of dentil. “1” has a short pointed serif at top, and a thin base. Star 7 points between dentils, to front of cap, and is close to it.
Reverse: Small die dot above eagle’s head under “U”. “50C” large, and widely spaced. Centering dot on crossbar 4 at left. Right sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
It utilizes Obverse 4 with Reverse D
Obv-Stars are large and stars 8-13 are usually flat, 82 is closer than 18 or 24, a die lump on the edge of the chin below the lower lip(tough to see here due to a hit in that area)
Rev- Left side of I under the right side of T, The first S in STATES is slightly high and very close to the T
Some diagnostics for 1824 O-105 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower edge of dentil. Star 7 points to upper half of dentil, and to upper edge of headband. “82” is closer than “18” or “24”. There is a die lump on the tip of the chin.
Reverse: Many straight die lines below left claw. First “S” in “STATES” is too high, and too close to “T”. “I” centered under right side of “T”.
Some diagnostics for 1824/4 O-109 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. The “4” is recut, showing at left on diagonal. A defect dot shows in the field straight out from Miss Liberty’s eye.
Reverse: This specimen shows a defect ridge rising from the highest part of the right talon. “RI” is solidly joined at base. The arrowheads are irregularly shaped, and joined by die defect lines. “A” is higher than “M” at base. “I” far left of “T”.
I know this bust isn't really worth the talk, but I'm having trouble with the Overton #. Can someone help me shed some light on this bust?
Thanks,
SM
SPMC - J-12338
McDCCC - Charter Member
Announcing: The Numismatic Enquirer - Website
Not easy to attribute from your pictures of a worn coin, until one notices D is lower than the adjacent E at the bottom.
O-117 R1
<< <i>StopMotion, Not easy to attribute from your pictures of a worn coin, until one notices D is lower than the adjacent E at the bottom. O-117 R1 >>
Nice call there Mozin
Do you get paid by the hour or by the day ?
Bet its just a labor of love.
BB
<< <i>StopMotion,
Not easy to attribute from your pictures of a worn coin, until one notices D is lower than the adjacent E at the bottom.
O-117 R1 >>
Thanks mozin! Yeah, I'm still working on my photo skills.
SM
SPMC - J-12338
McDCCC - Charter Member
Announcing: The Numismatic Enquirer - Website
The O-110 die marriage has already been posted on the Forum.
...but I wanted to post the photos of the O-110a to specifically make a point. I can post my O-110 (EDS) later.
The point is: You cannot have too many photos posted of ANY die marriage (or die state).
I cannot tell you all how many hours I spent staring at the reverse of every O-110 I could find (mostly on eBay). I wanted to find the Late Die State called the O-110a. I actually bought one coin, thinking it had the die crack---it didn't, I resold it to somebody else.
As you know, die cracks do not always show up in scans or even photos taken with a high quality digital camera.
...so if you are looking for a coin with a die crack, wouldn't it be nice to know exactly where the die crack is supposed to be? If you don't know where to (exactly) look, you can get bug-eyed trying to see a die crack where a die crack isn't supposed to be in the first place.
One of my favorite descriptions of location is "...die crack between 4 (or any last number in a date) and star 13." OK. I am looking and looking and looking. Is it supposed to be in the center between the number and S13? Or is it just to the right of the number? Or does it run through the left star points of star 13? I see something, is it a die crack or a scratch? etc. ad nauseam.
Really, one could go crazy---sometimes.
Back to the 1824 O-110a:
The Overton/Parsley book says "...die crack...from edge between AM..." The description is actually more descriptive (and accurate), but what I just typed is all that I remember as I pick up my magnifier and/or squint my eyes: "Die crack between AM," I think to myself.
I am looking and looking at the reverse of all of those darn (can I say the other "d' word on this website?) the O-110's trying to find A DIE CRACK between the AM.
Later, when I finally locate the O-110a, I discover that the die crack is there, but it ain't exactly in the same position where I have been looking for, how many months?
...so I thought I would post the pictures of the O-110a so that at least YOU WILL KNOW where to look for THAT die crack.
Quick diagnostics for the die marriage:
(1) Top of first 4 shows over left of final 4.
(2) AME joined solid at base.
(3) Arrowheads joined by die defects.
Quick diagnostic for the O-110a: die crack spans reverse of the coin starting at AM, ending between the lower two pair of olive leaves. (A more detailed description in the O/P book.)
There is also a second die crack that runs UNITED ST to the edge above the A. Many, but not all, of the die cracks running through the legend on a coin are almost impossible to see in photos. In the photo I have not marked this die crack with arrows.
Find an 1824 with these reverse die cracks, and you have the O-110a.
Photos of the O-110a, R2:
The Early Die State, the O-106, is considered "scarce" carrying the R3 rarity designation. The Late Die State, O-106a, is considered "very scarce" carrying the R4 rarity designation.
It is interesting to note that in Herrman's Auction Mail Bid Price Records only 7 sales of the O-106a are reported since January 2002 with the highest grade being EF-45. I believe that when more people become aware of this very scarce die state, more auction records will appear and the prices will go up.
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 5. Because it broke up while striking the O-106a, this is the only use of this die.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse die E. This was the first of two uses of this reverse die. The O-106 die marriage was the last 1824 dated Bust Half struck in the calendar year 1824. The reverse die was used immediately after to strike the 1825 O-102. For the 1825 series the reverse die is named Reverse die B. (Two other 1824 dated coins would be struck later in the first half of calendar year 1825.)
There are two quick identifiers for this die marriage. They are both on the coin's reverse.
(1) RI in AMERICA is joined at the base.
(2) The U in UNITED is struck low with its top serifs well out of alignment with the adjacent N and the other letters. This is not mentioned in the Overton/Parsley book. It is mentioned, along with a photograph, in the Peterson book.
Photos of the 1824 O-106, R3: (ex Logan Collection)
*******************
The Late Die State of this die marriage is identical as the Early Die State except there is a sharp die crack from the edge across the 2 upper points of star 12 to the lower ribbon end.
This die crack is clearly seen in the photo.
Photos of the 1824 O-106a, R4: (ex Prouty Collection)
Regards,
Ed
1824 O-113a
Utilizes obverse 11 with Reverse L
Obv- The 24 is very close with the point of the 4 and serif of the 2 nearly touching, the mouth is open, star 7 is extra large and very close to the front of the cap, and most show a die swelling on the neck from the curl to the front of the throat.
Rev- Large letters in the legend with UNITED nearly touching the milling, RI nearly touch at the base and R is lower, in the prime state there is a sharp irregular break above the left wing, but it is lapped off in this "a" die state.
Edgar
Edgar
Edgar
Some diagnostics for 1824 O-111 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. On Miss Liberty’s neck there is a large centering dot, with a circle around it. Base of “8” is higher than “1” and “2”. This marriage often shows double or multiple profiles. This specimen has a large exterior double profile. (Same obverse as O-112.)
Reverse: Die line extends down and to the left, from the last lower feather on the upper arrow. Line 2 of stripe 3, and line 3 of stripe 6, extend up to the third crossbar. Right sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
Beautiful coin! You have some "crusty" one's too! The extreme double profile is surely a bonus ...
Edgar
Yes, I do have some darkly toned Busties. I tend to buy anything I like, whether chocolate, orange, or bright white. I must admit, the dark ones are hard for me on which to see details.
This die marriage was struck during the first half of the calendar year 1825.
It was struck immediately after the Mint struck the unique 1825 O-118, R8 die marriage. Perhaps after the premature break up of 1825 Obverse die 15---used on the 1825 O-118---the Mint had no other 1825 dated obverse dies ready for production and brought an unused leftover 1824 dated die out of the storeroom for use.
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 13. This was the only use of of this die.
The reverse of the is die marriage was stuck using Reverse die O. This was the second of three uses of this die. First used on the 1825 O-118, then on the 1824 O-116, this reverse die was next used to strike the scarce 1825 O-103. In the 1825 series the reverse die is called Rev. die C.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) The 2 in the date is lower than the 18 3.
(2) ED and AM are joined with the AT close, but not joined.
(3) The lower right serif on the E of UNITED has been recut on the diagonal. (This is clearly seen in my photo.)
(4) There is a diagonal line in the upper left corner of the shield.
Photos of the 1824 O-116, R3 with a double profile:
This is probably one of my least favortie Busties in my collection because of the coin's grade. And it is a difficult die marriage to accurately grade because of its inherent strike characteristics. ...but first, let's talk about the dies:
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 1. This was the second use of this die. The die was first used to strike the "slightly uncommon," R2, 1824/1 die marriage.
The reverse of the die marriage was struck using Reverse die B. This is the first of three uses of this reverse die. Immediately after striking the 1824 O-102, the die was used to strike the "extremely rare" 1823 O-113, R7 and then the "slightly uncommon" 1824 O-104, R2.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage.
(First, realize that on worn specimens the overdate may not be distinguished.)
(1) There is---even on most worn specimens---a small die dot between the scroll and the eagle's head under the 2nd U in PLURIBUS. (It cannot be seen in my photo. I have marked its location with a red arrow.)
The O-104 also has this same die dot. On the O-104 the inner point of star 7 is close to and points to the cap. On the O-102 the inner point of star 7 is not as close (as on the O-104) and points to the top edge of the liberty band.
(2) If you have an 1824/1 and are not sure if it is the O-101 or O-102 due to lack of milling or wear, on the O-101 the upper right serif of the U in UNITED is considerably higher than the N. On the O-102 they are level.
Regarding grading the 1824/1 O-102 AND THE O-101:
(I am quoting in part---without permission---from Souders' BHF II)
(a) "...the obverse is most often weak in the center curl detail... In circulated grades below VF-20 this area often appears as a smooth rounded mound with little definition. The clasp simply is not there."
(b) "[on the O-102] this area is even weaker from the worn die state and it extends to the surrounding hair detail."
(c) "...the reverses are always better due to design..."
Souders continues: "...[the] O-102 is in a class of its own and rare in any grade from AG-3 up! ...I doubt there are 50 to 60 of these existent - attributed or otherwise."
MY COIN'S GRADE: I have logged my coin into my collection as a F-12 obv/VF-20 reverse. I therefore "net" the coin's grade as VF-15. If any of you have any comments, corrections, additional things to say about my coin, please take the time to share.
Photos of my 1824/1 O-102, R5+:
This one also exhibits the common doubled profile.
But a question for the nuts.....I am seeing the curl clearly running into the L in LIBERTY. In fact, several curls penetrate the L although my pic only shows one. Is this common with this variety? Does your 111 show this Mozin?
Here is my 1824 O-111:
It does NOT have a curl that runs into the L in LIBERTY. On mine, the curls stop at or below the liberty band.
Perhaps on yours it is a die cud or die break at that point.
What about it FEVER, Slumlord98 or Mozin or Others? What do you think? What does your O-111 have?
Photos of my 1824 O-111, R2:
But I also thought I might be seeing some re-cutting of the L and when I took these reversed images..BAM....Look at the re-cutting on this L...Neat stuff
===================================
Here is another missing die state.
Some diagnostics for 1824/1 O-101a R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of dentil. 4 is cut over previous 1, flag of 1 showing left and right of 4. 2 and 4 are very close.
Reverse: Upper right serif of U is higher than upper left serif of N. Curved top of 5 is higher than 0. Centering dot between crossbars 4 & 5 at left. This LDS shows a crack from edge below U, joining top of UNITED. Other cracks show at top of ERICA, and top of TES OF A. I centered under left side of T.
Note: This specimen has a rotated die.
Some diagnostics for 1824/4 O-110 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. 4 is recut, showing earlier top left of diagonal. 82 is closer than 18 or 24.
Reverse: AME joined at base. Large dot shows in field below U. Arrowheads are joined by die defects, and two lower ones are connected to the shafts above. Small vertical tine shows at upper right side of O in OF. Letters of legend are crowded together. Right side of I is under left side of T.
Ed covered the pick up points of the RARE 1824/1, O-102 well, and I just wanted to make a few additional comments;
Ed stated: (1) "There is---even on most worn specimens---a small die dot between the scroll and the eagle's head under the 2nd U in PLURIBUS. (It cannot be seen in my photo. I have marked its location with a red arrow.)"
This holds true on all pieces that I have examined in the past. I was hoping to post an image of this dot, as it appears on the O-102 and since I have this image scanned in at 4800 dpi on one of my hard drives I "thought" I could show it a bit better - but it doesn't show up well in the image either (maybe next time I'm at the bank I'll try some scans from different angles to highlight this exact spot). As you can see, my "dog" (my dog looks just like Ed's dog!) shows nearly the exact same wear pattern. edmerlr's piece shows just a tad more detail on the Eagle's right wing, Eagles' head and so forth while mine show just a tad more detail on the obverse in the area above the clasp and the clasp itself. This is one "bear" of a marriage to find in any grade.
Another thing that I always look for on 24's as a quick reference is the topmost arrowhead and how the actual edge takes a dip under the last A in AMERICA - but does not touch it. Keep in mind that the 1824, O-104 has this same reverse but when you check the obverse the 2 and 4 are separated and not close as on the O-102.
Mozin, Slumlord and others - anyone have a higher grade example that they can post???
Edgar
I thought mine was ugly, but you win---yours is UGLIER !!!!
...but in our Wonderful World of Busties, there really is no such thing as an ugly, rare coin.
"Ugly" is only a negative when you are talking about a "common" coin or one of those millions of darn Morgans (sorry, my opinion---it's a Free Country).
Regards,
Ed Richter
Not mentioned in the O/P book. Mentioned in Herrman's AMPBR with a suggested rarity of R6.
The O-113 Prime is the same as the O-113 except there is a horizontal die line in the up-curl of the 2. I have marked it with Red Arrow on my coin.
Herrman suggests the R6 rarity and there has only been one reported sale in his AMBPR. This was for a raw AU-55 in a Downey sale in 2005 for $2,783.
I do not believe this die state is that rare. I believe after more people are aware of it and start looking for it, the rarity will drop to a R4 or R5.
Myself, I have 2 AU examples of this coin. I do not have the "normal" O-113 - which I am not looking for. And I cannot seem to find---in an acceptable (to me) grade and price---the O-113a.
Photos of the 1824 O-113' (Prime), R6?:
...on page 2 of this 1824 date thread you had posted scans of your 1824 O-111 with a neat double profile.
I posted scans of my 1824 O-111 a few posts later---also on page 2.
The subject of our postings at the time was not the coins' double profile.
I recently upgraded out of my collection the 1824 O-111 that I had used for my posting. (tennisman12 now has it---but he had to promise me to take really good care of it before I shipped it to him.)
This morning while subsituting photos of my "new" O-111 in place of my "old" O-111's photos, I could not help but notice the double profile on this new coin.
Darn if the double-profile is almost identical to your coin's double-profile!!! Both double-profiles are odd and easy spot.
Our coins could be TWINS---one struck right after the other, or within a short time of each other. I wonder which one came out of the Mint's womb first.
Go back to page 2 and compare the coins. (i.e., the 1824 O-111 postings of Mozin and edmerlr on page 2.)
...very interesting.
Here goes:
The 1824 O-112 DM is rated "very scarce" R4 in all die states. Not too long ago the BHNC refined the surviving population estimates for R4's to be 121 to 160 specimens. This is not to be confused with coins carrying a R4- or R4+ rarity rating.
I will be posting photos of my O-112 and my early strike of the O-112a with an incomplete diagnostic die crack.
The obverse of this die marriage was struck with Obverse Die 10. This was the second and last use of this die. It broke up striking this DM. The die was used prior to strike the 1824 O-111 DM just after the beginning of calendar year 1824.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck with Reverse Die K. Also, this was the second and last use of this die. The die was used immediately prior to strike the 1823 O-112. The 1823 O-112 was struck after the 1824 O-111 was struck.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) There is a large center dot with a circle around it on the portrait's neck. The O-111 also has this dot.
(2) The first line of the 6th stripe extends up into the 4th cross bar of the shield.
(3) The A and the M of AMERICA are both rotated counterclockwise. This is very similar on the 1824 O-103, but the T to I relationship is different on that coin.
(4) The right side of D-E and the T-I are in line.
Photos of my 1824 O-112, R4:
*************
The "a model" die STATE of this die marriage has an obverse die crack.
The O/P book states: "...a circular die crack from edge between star 13 and 4 which extends upward across curls and drapery to front edge of bust and lightly across field to star 4."
This is one of those die states that I looked high and low for for a long time. I know it exists, because somebody showed me a photo of their O-112a. ...but, dag gum it, I don't remember who it was.
Finally this year I broke down and purchased the coin below. My coin has the die crack extending to the lower curls (Red Arrows) and it a depression in a line just below the lower left of the clasp (Green Arrows). I believe this depression was the very beginning of the die crack. That is, where it appeared on coins struck after mine as the die continued to crack and break up.
Photos of my "early strike" of the 1824 O-112a, R4 with its incomplete die crack:
The O-108a is identical to the O-108 except for two die cracks (marked with red arrows on my photo).
(1) There is a die crack at the top of UNITED S.
(2) There is another die crack at the top of RICA going towards the arrowhead points.
NOTE that the coin pictured is NOT the Late Die State of this die marriage. The LDS of this DM has a die crack on the obverse across the bust near star 13. This is not mentioned in the O/P book. Does anyone have a photo of this LDS coin with this die crack?
Photos of my 1824 O-108a, R2:
Joe G.
Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
Your coin is an 1824 O-107, R2
Ed
This is one of the varieties that I used in a study many years ago to prove that the center dot was placed on the shield BEFORE the shield was engraved. (See page 245 and 246 of Bust Half Fever). Note how the engraver stopped short of the dot, with the horizontal shield line, because he had not yet punched in the lettering and still needed to place the compass in the incuse dot for the layout line on the incomplete working die. You have a neat piece!
Edgar
The obverse of this rare die marriage was struck using Obverse Die 11. This was to be the 2nd and last use of this die. The die used immediately prior to strike the "common" 1824 O-113, R1 die marriage.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse Die M. This was the second and last use of this reverse die. The reverse die was used previously to strike the 1823 O-106, R3. This reverse die was apparently "pulled out of storage" to be used on the 1824 O-114.
Interestingly, the 1824 O-114 was one of the last 1824 die marriages struck in the calendar year 1824. Two more 1824 Busties would be struck later in the calendar year 1825. Sharing the same reverse die as the 1824 O-114, the 1823 O-106 was the last 1823 die marriage struck in the calendar year 1823. Two more 1823 Busties would be struck later in calendar year 1824.
The obverse identifiers for the O-114 die marriage are shared with the common O-113.
(1) Star 7 is extra large and points, very closely, to the front of the cap.
(2) The point of the 4 in the date and the serif of the 2 nearly touch. The diagonal of the 4 is slightly twisted and curved. (On the 1824/1 O-101 and O-102 the diagonal is straight.)
The reverse identifiers of the O-114 are:
(1) The letters of the ledgend are all large and separated at the bases.
(2) The I of PLURIBUS is centered under the second T of STATES
(3) The right side of the stands of D in UNITED and E in the motto are in line.
Photos of my 1824 O-114, R5-:
Some diagnostics for 1824/various O-103 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. 4 cut over a jumble of cuttings. 24 is closer than 182.
Reverse: A and M are both rotated CCW. Centering dot between crossbars 4 & 5 at left. Line 1 of stripe 1 extends up to crossbar 5. Left side of I under right side of T.