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PHOTOS ADDED 1st post. 1942-s Jefferson nickel, pre-war style, small s. The rarest nickel issued b
RichieURich
Posts: 8,372 ✭✭✭✭✭
I've always been intrigued by the following entry in Breen's Encyclopedia: #"2684 1942 S Rev. of 1941 S Unique? Discovered in circulation by Ken Frith about 1961; later Herstal:89, 1975 Sub. Wash.:104, Robert Bashlow estate. Mintmark from the same punch as 2676 (1941 S Large S); presumably a 1941 S rev. remained in press with the 1942 obv. in anticipation of orders for nickel coins, but nothing was made until after the wartime silver alloy went into use."
I was buzzing thru eBay a while ago and ran into a seller with the same name, so I e-mailed him to find out if he was the same person, it turned out he is the same Ken Frith. He was happy that someone was interested in this coin, and he was wiling to send me a bunch of correspondence about it along with some pictures. As Breen indicated, it looks like a mule of a 1942 Philly obverse and a 1941-S Large S reverse with the s at the right side of Monticello. It is also the pre-war composition of 75% copper and 25% nickel. Mr. Frith did not actually find the coin in circulation, someone else did and brought it to his attention, at the time his specialty was collecting mint errors. He examined it and purchased it. He shipped it to dealer Michael Kolman of Cleveland, and Mr. Kolman and his expert Myron Zadowski confirmed it as genuine. He then shipped it to Don Taxay, who examined it and had no doubt of its authenticity. He then sent it to Walter Breen, who ran many tests on it and confirmed it was genuine.
The pictures I received are copies of photos taken in the 1960's so they are not of good enough quality to post. From the pictures, the coin appears to be in Fine condition.
Does anyone know where this coin is? I have a client who would be interested in purchasing it if it were available. PM me if you don't want to post information in the Forum.
Edited to add photos just received from Ken Frith:
I was buzzing thru eBay a while ago and ran into a seller with the same name, so I e-mailed him to find out if he was the same person, it turned out he is the same Ken Frith. He was happy that someone was interested in this coin, and he was wiling to send me a bunch of correspondence about it along with some pictures. As Breen indicated, it looks like a mule of a 1942 Philly obverse and a 1941-S Large S reverse with the s at the right side of Monticello. It is also the pre-war composition of 75% copper and 25% nickel. Mr. Frith did not actually find the coin in circulation, someone else did and brought it to his attention, at the time his specialty was collecting mint errors. He examined it and purchased it. He shipped it to dealer Michael Kolman of Cleveland, and Mr. Kolman and his expert Myron Zadowski confirmed it as genuine. He then shipped it to Don Taxay, who examined it and had no doubt of its authenticity. He then sent it to Walter Breen, who ran many tests on it and confirmed it was genuine.
The pictures I received are copies of photos taken in the 1960's so they are not of good enough quality to post. From the pictures, the coin appears to be in Fine condition.
Does anyone know where this coin is? I have a client who would be interested in purchasing it if it were available. PM me if you don't want to post information in the Forum.
Edited to add photos just received from Ken Frith:
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Comments
Joe
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
auctioned again in '75 at Suburban Washington sale
subsequently owned by Robert Bashlow, his estate, then
Manfra, Tordella & Brookes who sold it to Bernard Nagengast
who sold to Larry Briggs who sold it to an unidentified collector
above from 'The Jefferson Nickel Analyst'
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Bern is still involved in numismatics, making and selling Kointains. Write to the E&T Kointainer Co., P.O. Box 103, Sidney, Ohio 45365 and he might know who the current owner is.
Tom DeLorey
I'm not familiar enough to spot the differences and might not be able to from the poor
picture but wouldn't it be more believable that the coin was struck in San Francisco at the
beginning of the year? It's easy to imagine that they merely failed to change the reverse
die after changing the obverse die. Since the coin may be unique, then perhaps they simply
cycled the press one or twice before completing the task of changing the dies.
This is relatively common in later years especially where the design changes are very small.
Not an April fools joke.
<< <i>Cool coins I saw: The coolest coin I saw was the unique 1942-S Jefferson nickel, with the reverse of the 1941-S Large S and in the pre-war composition. All other 1942-S nickels have the mintmark over the top of Monticello rather than on the side, and also have the wartime composition. I posted information I had about this coin in an earlier thread.
The 1942-S Jefferson with the reverse of the 1941-S Large S is a personal favorite of mine. After all, there aren't many unique coins in the Federal series! I ran into a dealer while he was setting up and he had a bunch of correspondence about the coin in one case. As I looked further, he had the nickel there also! He has it on consignment from its current owner who has owned it for 20 years. The price was a bit much for me, but it was a great coin, in Fine, and much better than the pictures I posted. For a Fine, it has very strong rims, leading me further toward the view that it was a coin to test the dies early in 1942, before the decision was made to convert to the wartime composition. >>
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I have, especially because Henning is known to have made multiple dates, not just 1944's.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> But has anyone considered it could be a fake?
I have, especially because Henning is known to have made multiple dates, not just 1944's. >>
Given that the reverse is the large S style used only in 1941, I'd say it's real since at least it is traced down to a known reverse with known diagnostics.
Henning wasn't even astute enough to use the proper reverse for the silver war nickel, so I seriously doubt he would have been astute enough to use the large S 1941 reverse in making a piece like this.
Though we may never prove it conclusively till another specimen shows up, a much higher grade specimen.
.
Not necessarily. A quick SEM-EDX test on the piece could be very interesting. And if anything suspicious appears in the report, the next step would be to SEM-EDX a Henning nickel.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Remember that the 44 nickels were supposedly made with the correct metal matrix, that is why it was odd that he choose the nickel as the profit margin was so minimal. If it is a fake it it very possible the 41 lg S reverse was choosen very randomly. Again it wasn't until years later that the difference in the mint mark was noticed. The question is not the size of the mint mark, but the location of the mint mark. As was noted earlier, it will take another example in a higher grade to help determine the true answer. >>
So Henning used the correct Cu-Ni alloy to make his "silver" war nickels? Interesting, so did he use the incorrect reverse in an honest attempt to let the people know it wasn't silver? I don't know but it's interesting none the less. If this thing is a fake, I am sure it's not Henning. He was very sloppy with small details like proper obverse and reverse use.
The size of the mint mark may actually matter here because I do believe that there is only one reverse for the Large S 1941 reverse. Someone correct me here if I'm wrong.
I hope it gets certified and tested, I'd like to see what it uncovers.
.
<< <i>While we are speaking of this, has anyone heard of the existance of a 1940-S reverse of 38 Jefferson? Breen mentions this under his listing of #2672. Or the 1946 nickels on wartime silver blanks? >>
Heritage auctioned a 1946 nickel on a wartime silver blank about 4 - 5 years ago. Not sure if it sold or not.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Assuming that the coin was struck early in the year and released through normal channels, I think it should be recognized as a legitimate (and ultimate key) coin in the Jefferson series and not an "error".
Unlike the 1943 "copper" cents that were struck in the wrong metal for the year, the 1942-S Type 1 nickel was struck in a composition and with a mintmark style and placement that was appropriate for the first 9 months of the year of issue. This should make the coin as legitimate as the 1942 Philadelphia Type 1 nickel, even if the known mintage of the 1942-S is only 1.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>sold for $11K in '74 Bowers and Ruddy's Stanislaw Herstal sale
auctioned again in '75 at Suburban Washington sale
subsequently owned by Robert Bashlow, his estate, then
Manfra, Tordella & Brookes who sold it to Bernard Nagengast
who sold to Larry Briggs who sold it to an unidentified collector
above from 'The Jefferson Nickel Analyst' >>
I saw it when Bern Nagengast owned it. We were officers in the Shelby COunty Coin Club at the time. Looked OK to me.
TD
Edited to add: Oops! Just noticed that this is an old thread, and that I said that before.......
Silver alloy or normal CuNi?
The coin in question was manufactured in pre-war composition, according to posts in this and other threads.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
info
I hope this thread locates the right person to obtain some real pictures to feast our eyes on. I find it hard to believe there are none out there yet????
Dowg
If I remember correctly, the asking price in the ad was $25,000 rather than $2,500.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I have had the pleasure of viewing this coin.
This coin is of silver composition, not pre-war, although slightly different values from a typical war nickel.
“Frith Nickel”
Ag 53.84
Cu 41.35
Mn 4.77
Ni 0.04
1942-S MM Above
Ag 39.67
Cu 52.02
Mn 8.27
Ni 0.04
I will update this thread with high res pictures, or at least a link to them shortly!
TD
P.S.: and did I mention that I once saw this coin while Bern Nagengast had it???
<< <i>Just to bring back up an old topic...
I have had the pleasure of viewing this coin.
This coin is of silver composition, not pre-war, although slightly different values from a typical war nickel.
“Frith Nickel”
Ag 53.84
Cu 41.35
Mn 4.77
Ni 0.04
1942-S MM Above
Ag 39.67
Cu 52.02
Mn 8.27
Ni 0.04
I will update this thread with high res pictures, or at least a link to them shortly! >>
wow
quality images are to surface
how sweet is this for an old article about a midnight mule
thanks coinlook
what a treat it must of been too...to be with this nickel on a personal level
<< <i>Just to bring back up an old topic...
I have had the pleasure of viewing this coin.
This coin is of silver composition, not pre-war, although slightly different values from a typical war nickel.
“Frith Nickel”
Ag 53.84
Cu 41.35
Mn 4.77
Ni 0.04
1942-S MM Above
Ag 39.67
Cu 52.02
Mn 8.27
Ni 0.04
I will update this thread with high res pictures, or at least a link to them shortly! >>
Since the composition is dramatically different, perhaps it should be considered a pattern.
<< <i>Just to bring back up an old topic...
I have had the pleasure of viewing this coin.
This coin is of silver composition, not pre-war, although slightly different values from a typical war nickel.
“Frith Nickel”
Ag 53.84
Cu 41.35
Mn 4.77
Ni 0.04
1942-S MM Above
Ag 39.67
Cu 52.02
Mn 8.27
Ni 0.04
I will update this thread with high res pictures, or at least a link to them shortly! >>
My guess would be that the Mint was testing various ratios of the four metals to see which ones would work in vending machines. This could be a test strike that was made for that purpose, and that was inadvertently released to circulation. Possibly some similar coins were made at Philadelphia and Denver also, but they would be harder to spot because, apart from their metallic composition, they would be identical to the Type 1 nickels produced that year.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>Just to bring back up an old topic...
I have had the pleasure of viewing this coin.
This coin is of silver composition, not pre-war, although slightly different values from a typical war nickel.
“Frith Nickel”
Ag 53.84
Cu 41.35
Mn 4.77
Ni 0.04
1942-S MM Above
Ag 39.67
Cu 52.02
Mn 8.27
Ni 0.04
I will update this thread with high res pictures, or at least a link to them shortly! >>
WHat type of testing produced these results, and were multiple tests conducted on each piece to get average readings? When I was at ANACS we did elemental testing on a few pieces, and typically got variances on a single piece from location to location. I assume that this was due to the mixing of the alloy.
TD
<< <i>
<< <i>Just to bring back up an old topic...
I have had the pleasure of viewing this coin.
This coin is of silver composition, not pre-war, although slightly different values from a typical war nickel.
“Frith Nickel”
Ag 53.84
Cu 41.35
Mn 4.77
Ni 0.04
1942-S MM Above
Ag 39.67
Cu 52.02
Mn 8.27
Ni 0.04
I will update this thread with high res pictures, or at least a link to them shortly! >>
WHat type of testing produced these results, and were multiple tests conducted on each piece to get average readings? When I was at ANACS we did elemental testing on a few pieces, and typically got variances on a single piece from location to location. I assume that this was due to the mixing of the alloy.
TD >>
Definitely could be due to how the alloy was mixed and settled when creating the sheet metal and then planchet.
I would definitely call this a 'pattern' of a 'metallic alloy test piece'.
As for alloy composition analysis:
1) The surfaces of the coin should be treated to remove surface contaminants
2) At least 2 or 3 areas of the coin should be tested for both a range and average compositional record
3) The results of your testing will ultimately depend on the precision of the instrument you use (I'm not sure how accurate the machines were 25-30 years ago at ANACS Tom)
just gotta say, loved seeing all the names in this thread for such a cooperative project (previous and recent).
good job to CoinCoins for posting to this (at the time) 6 year old thread so as to include a very enjoyable read along with new findings/info etc.
a big fat "thumbsup;
.
The technician suggested that if I wanted a true reading on any coin I should polish a spot down to bare metal. I explained thast this was not an option.
He said that the manganese ingots tended to ozidize heavily and get a thick, black coating of manganese oxide. Proper procedure would have been to "scale" the ingots before using them, but they didn't bother to. The manganese oxide did not alloy into the melt, and caused streaks that later failed.
So, bad alloying was a common problem with wartime nickel planchets. The question is, how did this old reverse die get into a press in 1942? And was there a large production run that was caught and melted, except for this one which got out into circulation?
TD
<< <i>Just to bring back up an old topic...
I have had the pleasure of viewing this coin.
This coin is of silver composition, not pre-war, although slightly different values from a typical war nickel.
“Frith Nickel”
Ag 53.84
Cu 41.35
Mn 4.77
Ni 0.04
1942-S MM Above
Ag 39.67
Cu 52.02
Mn 8.27
Ni 0.04
I will update this thread with high res pictures, or at least a link to them shortly! >>
I for one, was hoping for those high res pictures to show up!
I'm not going to say whether this coin is genuine or fake or it's a product of Henning, which is possible. But as you say, a run had to take place and the rest would have had to been recycled otherwise, where are the others. I think we would need some facts from the mint when the silvers were implemented...early on or later in the year. I could speculate, but that would be useless. I would be interested in taking on Bern Nagengast and others on the why on how they assessed the coin when they had it in hand but that's not going to happen. Here we have a lousy picture and two dates when it sold and we don't know who has it now. Why I had no interest to ask Briggs when we ......encountered early this year......he doesn't know me as many as you don't........and it's just that way. It's possible, since the coin has not been certified............I'll let your generalities take off from here.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection