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Does anyone here have knowledge of when a 1964-D Peace was sold?
lsica
Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭✭
We're all 99.99% sure they exist... but has anyone ever heard a story of when one changed hands?
Philately will get you nowhere....
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<< <i>What are some ways the 1964-D Peace Dollar can become legal? >>
Prove that the order to recover and destroy all of that date somehow either wasn't legally binding or that it somehow it didn't apply to at least some of the coins that left the mint before the order.
<< <i>They probably are like a stolen Ranbrandt. Traded underground and only can be viewed in a closet!! >>
Someone should make a movie about it, like the Thomas Crown Affair
<< <i>We're all 99.99% sure they exist... but has anyone ever heard a story of when one changed hands? >>
How long have you been working for the Secret Service?
<< <i> We're all 99.99% sure they exist... >>
really?
<< <i>How long have you been working for the Secret Service? >>
<< <i>I think I must be in the 0.01% group. >>
<< <i>really? >>
From Breen (pp 461): ".... various (mint) employees had purchased two new dollars apiece....nobody kept any record either of the number sold to employees or the number turned in" (and unlike a lot of Breen's "stories" where he sometimes "makes stuff up", this time he cites Denver coin dealer Dan Brown as a source).
From Guth/Garett "United States Coinage - A Study By Type" (pp 108) "Rumors persist of a survivor *OR TWO*" (emphasis mine, the specificity of that count implies to me that one or both of the authors at least has access to "hearsay" evidence of the existence of the coin that they "have a good feeling" about)
Other here with more vast numismatic libraries than mine can post other references
So, although my "99.99%" figure is obvious hyperbole (what.. I can't use a damn literary device?), its obvious that those who are educated at all here would not at ALL be surprised when a 1964-D actually turns up. But, of course, those of us who are nothing more than hide-behind-their-keyboard-smarmy-internet-contrarians with absolutely NO evidence or reference EITHER way have to pipe in with their "they don't exist" statements. I'm betting some of them never even heard of a 1964-D Peace Dollar.
Facts - supported by documentation - are very few. Here are a couple that don’t fit with the standard speculations:
1. Mint records, Congressional testimony, and anecdotes agree that the Peace dollars struck in Denver in May 1965 were trial pieces, not part of production intended for circulation.
2. The production of trial pieces in large numbers is well documented including 1922 low relief Peace dollars.
2A. Sometimes trial pieces are acceptable and released with normal production, sometimes they are not, and then are melted.
2A-1. 1922 medium relief Peace dollars were struck (3,200 pieces). Three examples were sent to the director's office in Washington. The design variation was rejected and all trial pieces were destroyed except the three that had left Philadelphia. One piece is known.
2A-2. 1922 low relief Peace dollars were struck (approx 200,000 pieces). Seven (or more) examples were sent to the director's office in Washington. The design variation was accepted, the trial pieces were considered acceptable and all trial pieces were mixed with normal production and released.
3. "Several" 1964-D trial pieces were sent to the sent to the director's office in Washington. Production was prohibited and all trial pieces were destroyed. The fate of the examples set to Washington is not known, but maybe one day the documents will turn up.
4. The Denver mint had prepared more than 7 million silver dollar blanks before trial production was halted.
There are more documents that go deeper into the 1964-D trial production, but you’ll have to wait for the book. (BTW – there is a lot more known about the 1964-D dollars than about 1913 Liberty nickels.)
<< <i>The operative word is "rumor;" another might be "speculation."
Facts - supported by documentation - are very few. Here are a couple that don’t fit with the standard speculations:
1. Mint records, Congressional testimony, and anecdotes agree that the Peace dollars struck in Denver in May 1965 were trial pieces, not part of production intended for circulation.
2. The production of trial pieces in large numbers is well documented including 1922 low relief Peace dollars.
2A. Sometimes trial pieces are acceptable and released with normal production, sometimes they are not, and then are melted.
2A-1. 1922 medium relief Peace dollars were struck (3,200 pieces). Three examples were sent to the director's office in Washington. The design variation was rejected and all trial pieces were destroyed except the three that had left Philadelphia. One piece is known.
2A-2. 1922 low relief Peace dollars were struck (approx 200,000 pieces). Seven (or more) examples were sent to the director's office in Washington. The design variation was accepted, the trial pieces were considered acceptable and all trial pieces were mixed with normal production and released.
3. "Several" 1964-D trial pieces were sent to the sent to the director's office in Washington. Production was prohibited and all trial pieces were destroyed. The fate of the examples set to Washington is not known, but maybe one day the documents will turn up.
4. The Denver mint had prepared more than 7 million silver dollar blanks before trial production was halted.
There are more documents that go deeper into the 1964-D trial production, but you’ll have to wait for the book. (BTW – there is a lot more known about the 1964-D dollars than about 1913 Liberty nickels.) >>
Are you certain that the "trial pieces" story wasn't an after the fact invention of some government official trying to cover themselves? If I recall correctly, in this era the mint flatly denied that any 1943 bronze cents could exist.
Don't ever just accept what government officials put out for public consumption.
<< <i>There are more documents that go deeper into the 1964-D trial production, but you’ll have to wait for the book. >>
(FOIA request) -
<< <i>It has been tried. Rejected on "security" reasons.... >>
Another book?
oooooh... tell us what it's gonna be about.... just the 64 Peace Dollars, Peace Dollars in general... or the "Coin Shortage" era (1964-1967)?
<< <i>
<< <i>How long have you been working for the Secret Service? >>
<< <i>I think I must be in the 0.01% group. >>
<< <i>really? >>
From Breen (pp 461): ".... various (mint) employees had purchased two new dollars apiece....nobody kept any record either of the number sold to employees or the number turned in" (and unlike a lot of Breen's "stories" where he sometimes "makes stuff up", this time he cites Denver coin dealer Dan Brown as a source).
From Guth/Garett "United States Coinage - A Study By Type" (pp 108) "Rumors persist of a survivor *OR TWO*" (emphasis mine, the specificity of that count implies to me that one or both of the authors at least has access to "hearsay" evidence of the existence of the coin that they "have a good feeling" about)
Other here with more vast numismatic libraries than mine can post other references
So, although my "99.99%" figure is obvious hyperbole (what.. I can't use a damn literary device?), its obvious that those who are educated at all here would not at ALL be surprised when a 1964-D actually turns up. But, of course, those of us who are nothing more than hide-behind-their-keyboard-smarmy-internet-contrarians with absolutely NO evidence or reference EITHER way have to pipe in with their "they don't exist" statements. I'm betting some of them never even heard of a 1964-D Peace Dollar. >>
I have a letter from Dan Brown, written in response to a story I did in COINage, confirming that employees were allowed to purchases up to two coins each on the day of the striking. In the letter he states that the Superintendent at the Denver Mint at that time told him that this was true, but that she said that the Mint had gotten all of them back.
Tom DeLorey
one was given to president Lyndon Johnson and one to Miss Eva Adams (mint director at time)
K S
<< <i>What are some ways the 1964-D Peace Dollar can become legal? Will someone need to make an export application and somehow get it approved like in the case of the 1933 double eagle? Are there other ways? >>
I read an article once concerning the 33 St Gaudens, that suggested that if you brought bullion or an equivalent weight in other gold coins to the mint for making into new coins before the prohibition on private gold ownership was passed (a period of only about 3 weeks) and received a 33 Double Eagle for it, it might be legal to own, since you didn't deplete the gold reserve, but expect the government to fight you tooth and nail over it, anyway. I don't think the mint was accepting bullion from citizens to be minted into coins, in 64 though, so I can't see where that might help to legitimize a 64 Peace Dollar.
<< <i>one thing i find strange about the 1964-D Peace Dollar is that there aren't any(more) stories about coins surfacing. with the potential sale price if a coin is legalized via whatever process would be required, why has noone tried to counterfiet this issue?? >>
What would be the point to counterfeiting a coin that is widely known to be illegal to own?? It isn't hard to figure out that if you buy a 64 Peace Dollar from someone, it will either be confiscated as a forgery by the FBI if it is a fake, or confiscated by Treasury agents if it is real. As was mentioned previously, anyone who has one is going to be playing it close to the vest and only display it or sell it in a private transaction to someone they trust extremely well to continue to keep it's existence and provenance a secret.
<< <i>Bowers wrote they were struck in May 1965
one was given to president Lyndon Johnson and one to Miss Eva Adams (mint director at time) >>
Sinin1 is on to something here. Does anyone believe that Lyndon Johnson would give up anything of value, or would he keep it squirreled away somewhere until the heat was off. IMO there is one owned by LBJ's family that just hasn't shown up yet.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
With nearly all participants now dead, we'll probably never know.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Mike Mansfield lived up into his early 90's if I recall correctly... >>
I remember the flags being at half mast after he died, that would have been around '95.
<< <i>I want to believe---if any coin should be restruck--as like a comemorative- it is this one. >>
It'd be silly to strike 64-D Peaces, but if Da Mint ever decides to change the ASE design, bringing back the Peace dollar would not be a bad choice, IMHO.
<< <i>I dont think the thing exists. >>
Ditto. It would have showed up somewhere already... somewhere out of the country where it couldn't be confiscated.
However, Secretary Dillon actually approved using the Morgan design.
<< <i>Just curious--why would it be silly to re-issue 64-D Peace dollars? It is a beautiful design and loved by collectors---surely no worse than the buffaloes that seem to have captured everyone's imagination. >>
Are you talking about reissuing Peace dollars with a 1964-D date and mintmark, or making new dollar coins with the Peace design and a contemporary date? I find the former to be the silly idea, while the latter would be kinda neat.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment