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What a wonderful article in the Grey Sheet about crack-outs for profit!!

saintgurusaintguru Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭
in PCGS Set Registry Forum
What a stupid article! image

And of course there's a quote pn how wonderful it can be from the greatest "expert", who they applauded for turning in 13,000 inserts as a charitable gesture!

GIMME A BREAK. Any dealer who sit's on inserts of rare coins is despicable, in my opinion. Ther's NO logical reason for it. It skews the POPs on coins with single digits to 2x or 3x what they really are.

They should be ferreted out by the TPG's and exposed for the ill effect they have on collectors of low-pop coins.image
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Comments

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    ajiaajia Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭
    Not sure who the greatest 'expert' is as I do not subscribe to the grey sheet, but I remember having the same thoughts after reading most of Travers "How to Make Money...." book.

    Buy graded PQ coins with big upside (big jump in price inthe next grade), low downside.......crack & resend.

    To me, that was the jest of the book.

    Wow, what a revelation!
    image
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    saintgurusaintguru Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭
    this is wierd.,...I double posted this on both forums.

    well, HELL. I still get pissed off at the whole deal with hoarding inserts.image
    image
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    DrizztDrizzt Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭
    Sooo..let's see if I have this straight...


    buy 1 pop 3 coin
    resubmit numerous times till the pop is 10-12
    buy the other 2 for less than you paid for the first one
    charitably donate your inserts
    now you own all 3 of a pop 3 coin, and can pretty much name your price

    That right?
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    saintgurusaintguru Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Sooo..let's see if I have this straight...


    buy 1 pop 3 coin
    resubmit numerous times till the pop is 10-12
    buy the other 2 for less than you paid for the first one
    charitably donate your inserts
    now you own all 3 of a pop 3 coin, and can pretty much name your price

    That right? >>



    No! You would think so, but they don't do that. At least I've never see a single instance of it.
    image
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    jacktheknifejacktheknife Posts: 1,547 ✭



    Drizzt,

    Interesting concept. Do you think it has been done before?

    Jack


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    ajiaajia Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭
    But they could.

    And now that the cat is out of the bag...image
    image
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    jacktheknifejacktheknife Posts: 1,547 ✭


    I hit "reply to thread" too soon. I was going to add that I agree with Saintguru. How can having 13,000 inserts be construed as a good thing? 13,000 inserts aren't just collected as an afterthought. It was done purposefully. To what end, who knows.

    Jack


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    saintgurusaintguru Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭
    And you think there might be another 13,000 in another box? image
    image
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    DrizztDrizzt Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Drizzt,

    Interesting concept. Do you think it has been done before?

    Jack >>



    I would have to say, that if I thought of it, it's been done 10 years ago.
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    Dan50Dan50 Posts: 1,809 ✭✭✭
    The lousy Bastage. I have three, and have been feeling guilty for not sending those in.
    Dan
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    RBinTexRBinTex Posts: 4,328 ✭
    If somebody wanted to really mess w/the pop(s) of a really scarce low pop coin & money were no object (or even if money was the REAL object - i.e. to create a false impression of a greater supply than really existed in the hopes of driving prices down) it would not be too difficult.

    It's a real shame that people like that exist as well as the fact that the pops can't really be relied upon as a true indication of a population but are more of an indication of a max. I guess that's sorta good news if one realizes that there are almost always LESS than the pop report shows.

    The $64,000 question is always though, HOW MUCH LESS the REAL pop is. image
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    saintgurusaintguru Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭
    That's right RB. Especially when you are talking coins with single digit pops.
    image
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    QBertQBert Posts: 311 ✭✭✭
    I would hope that the grading companies are keeping photographic records of the coins (At least the small pop ones) And can tell if the same coin has been re-submitted. I would be real suprised if this was not the case.
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    saintgurusaintguru Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭
    Sorry to tell you this but they don't. I've talked to HRH about this subject in great detail. There are ways to trace coins IF there is some evidence, but no way to prove anything without the inserts. I have a few coins that are definately overstated by 25-50%! Low POP coins. image
    image
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    QBertQBert Posts: 311 ✭✭✭
    image


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    lloydmincylloydmincy Posts: 1,861 ✭
    I think you guys are over-reacting to the fact that this can be done on a regular basis. Sounds like a great scam idea, but the reward/risk isn't worth it.

    I guarantee the crack-out artists would take an upgrade anyday on a resubmission vs. the keep-resubmitting strategy noted above.

    I feel today the risk is buying these top-pop coins that have so many or COULD have so many just one grade below. Lincoln cents are the prime example I can think of. Still may be rolls out there yet to be submitted or discovered.

    By now though, most of us should have a good idea what is legitimately rare in the top pop department for any given series.

    I think...
    The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith

    image
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    centmastercentmaster Posts: 504 ✭
    I personally know of a dealer who was held hostage by a potential seller of an entire collection of a certain series. The "blackmail" of sorts was that if the dealer bought the collection at the seller's price, then the seller would also give him the hundreds of inserts of low pop coins for that series. The dealer begrudgingly bought the collection (plus the inserts) so the pops would be more correct and his inventory would then be worth more.
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    saintgurusaintguru Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭
    Lloyd. I do not buy into the manipulation theory at all. I simply say that it's BS for these guys to hoard inserts and let the POPs inflate when people are paying good miney for a po3 coin, only tio see it go to 12 in two years because they have one coin that they are sending in every few months.

    You buy it as a pop3 for X....then if you want to sell it and it's a pop12...you get x-25%, in more than theory.

    it's just wrong and there's NO RIGHTEOUS defense.
    image
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    StoogeStooge Posts: 4,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    SaintGuru:

    Read this article from the PCGS archives: Old PCGS inserts raise cash for new ANA Program

    I'm assuming that these are 2 different instances where hoarding inserts has been going on. 13,000+ inserts! I be you anything that there are 250,000 inserts being hoarded around the country, but that is just my guess.

    Later, Paul.

    Later, Paul.
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    RegistryNutRegistryNut Posts: 606 ✭


    << <i>Lloyd. I do not buy into the manipulation theory at all. I simply say that it's BS for these guys to hoard inserts and let the POPs inflate when people are paying good miney for a po3 coin, only tio see it go to 12 in two years because they have one coin that they are sending in every few months.

    You buy it as a pop3 for X....then if you want to sell it and it's a pop12...you get x-25%, in more than theory.

    it's just wrong and there's NO RIGHTEOUS defense. >>




    Jay,
    I found your thread to be very interesting. You're telling me that collectors actually would crack out a
    pop3 coin? If the coin regrades lower, you could lose your XXX. Right? I'd love to hear some stories of
    very low pops being cracked out.
    I agree hoarding inserts is wrong and destroys the credibility of the pop reports. Can't PCGS create a
    slab that can't be cracked out? Thanks for the interesting thread.

    RegistryNut image
    RegistryNut's Ebay Auctions
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    Dan50Dan50 Posts: 1,809 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Can't PCGS create a slab that can't be cracked out? >>


    You can crack a bank fault if you have enought time to work on it. What chance does a slab have?image
    Dan
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    RBinTexRBinTex Posts: 4,328 ✭
    At some point digital imaging is inevitible as all (coins too) must be unique at a given level of detail.
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    saintgurusaintguru Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭
    Paul...you're on the right track...however I have heard credible estimates that there are well into SIX FIGURES fo inserts either destroyed or in the desk drawers, boxes or archives of dealers and others.

    RegistryNut...I wouldn't dare say that a collector would crack-out a POP3 coin, but some of the more aggressive dealers do. There are many crack-outs that are indeed, "no-risk, for all practical purposes. I have cracked out a few VERY high end coins that would never downgrade, but I do not crack out anything anymore...and I have a few PCGS checks in my drawer for .50 for every one I did crack. image

    For what reason people do this I will never understand. And I don't believe that the crackout King coughed up those inserts voluntarily either. Let's say that PRESSURE was applied. This I KNOW.
    image
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