A raw full horn VF buffalo Nickel set...has anyone noticed...

mojorizn

how freaking hard these are getting to find? After searching hundreds...hundreds!!!!....of prospective coins at multiple dealers in the Tampa area in the last two weeks I have found eight true full horn VF nickels priced as such. Am I out of touch? Has the grading system changed drastically in this market? And is this the only series experiencing this phenomenon? SPEAK UP!!!

Mojo

Barndog

I don't collect them, but yes, the grading system has changed over the years. I understand that full horn used to be the defining characteristic of a VF...yet that is no longer true. A VF can have less than the traditional full horn these days. Some buffalo experts and collectors will chime in and clear it up for you, no doubt.

LincolnCentMan

Once you get into the mint marked pre-1930 buffs, you'll be hard pressed to find someone that's willing to sell a full horned buffalo as VF. Run a search for slabbed VF's on ebay and you'll see that more often than not, they dont have full horns. ....grade infaltion.

David

LincolnCentMan

1919-S VF25 PCGS
Three Legger VF35 PCGS

I'd search for NGC and ANACS ones... but I have to go to work .

David

mojorizn

I know that the strike characteristics of pre 1930 nickels, particularly from the branch mints, are dismal. And I've been collecting these for years. But it seems that the supply of decent coins has dried up in the last year or so to the point where it is truly difficult to match up a nice set.

Mojo

intocoins

<< <i>how freaking hard these are getting to find? After searching hundreds...hundreds!!!!....of prospective coins at multiple dealers in the Tampa area in the last two weeks I have found eight true full horn VF nickels priced as such. Am I out of touch? Has the grading system changed drastically in this market? And is this the only series experiencing this phenomenon? SPEAK UP!!! >>



Where have you been? This has been going on for years. Even most of the OGH in lower VF (IN THE 20's) don't display the full horn. If you want a full horn Buffalo set, my suggestion is that you collect somewhere in the XF - AU range.

I like to collect them in fine cause they still have nice detail and can be had for a nice price and you don't have to worry about the full horn. I still don't understand the big premium you pay between Fine and Very FIne if you arent getting a full horn..

Sometimes i think buffs should have a designation like FULL HORN, like the standing quarters and the mercury dimes have full head and full split bands, but thats always turned me off in those series. I actually will not collect these series cause of the designation.

Lastly , it's very hard for me to believe that every 21-s,24-s,26-s just to name a few , had a weak strike. I've seen some beautiful Heritage examples that looked pretty well striked to me. I think for the most part these coins are market graded and thats something that I don't agree with. Think about it.......... When was the last time you seen a 1938-D in VF without a full horn?

mojorizn

intocoins...I think the FH and FB designations are a little silly. Look at a FH SLQ- the shield is crap, no wing definition on the eagle-but hey it's in a FH slab. I guess my beef is that I like a coin to look like it's had a little history. But I also want the design to show to the extent that it was designed to be seen.

Mojo

Leiana

I think if you try for the upper echelons of VF coins, your 30s and 35s, you would have better luck with the full horns.

-Amanda

dorkkarl

w/ the possible exception of colonial coins, tpg grading of buffalo nickels is astoundingly poor & absurdly erratic

more than any other modern series, buy these coins based on how YOU grade them! YOU MUST HEED THIS ADVICE!!!

K S

mojorizn

Exactly, dorkkarl, and I agree whole heartedly with you Amanda. Most of my raw coins are borderline VF/EF, particularly the teens and early 20's. And dorkkarl makes an excellent point. As I said, my coins are raw. I've put together several short sets of slabbed MS64/65 buffalos but I've never approached the same enjoyment from those that I've gotten from hand selecting this set. And whether or not these coins meet the "market grade" or my own is irrelevant. I know what I like.

And it's getting d*** hard to find!

Mojo

buffnut

I'm actually surprised to hear that you found as many as eight examples as such! The keys and harder dates/mm are as a rule not going to have full horns in VF20. In fact very few PCGS VF20 coins that I have seen sport a true full horn- and when they did, there were other detractors that kept the coin from grading XF. You can find raw examples occassionaly with FH's at VF prices, but they are usually common date stuff that is only a few dollars (or less) for the next grade up. DK's statement and advice is spot on. There are many examples of coins that grade out even higher (MS included) that do not show a complete horn due to strike. While they may be technically uncirculated, I certainly wouldn't purchase one. I mainly look at MS examples for my set anyway, but have started looking more carefully at the hip/flank wear in addition to the horn to help grade the F-VF buffs. Lower end F coins may have the same amount of horn as an upper end VF coin, yet the area of flatness on the hip will be larger on the F coins. Obverses for this grade range CAN look identical from F12-VF35, and it is very difficult, if not impossible, to grade from the obverse. Having said that, look for a complete separation of LIBERTY from the rim for the upper end of this spectrum.

The shift in grading standards has been going on for a long while. There is still sickening disparity amongst the TPGs on what is and what isn't a VF coin. I don't see hope for an agreed standard anytime soon in the numismatic community as a whole.

This is an instance where buying the book is not enough. Most texts (that I have seen anyway) still tout VFs must have a full horn, and show a picture of a buff with a full horn for a grading sample. But in the collector's communities (shows, auctions, TPG slabs, internet) the definition of VF requires less horn, generally speaking.

Was it struck that way, or worn to that state? With circulated examples, it is often extremely hard to tell!

You gotta love this series!

Leiana

Regarding buffnut's comments... you can see some of that illustrated here.

-Amanda

DDR

I gotta chime in here...

About 15 years ago I put together a complete set, all dates and mintmarks, of VF Buffalo Nickels with full horns. If it didn't have a full horn, I didn't buy it. If I had to squint to see the tip of the horn, I didn't buy it. In each case the dealer agreed the coin was VF. I usually paid strong VF, but never XF, money for each coin.

I think that now the vast majority of the set would grade XF, with a few VFs and AUs sprinkled in. A couple of months ago I had some certificates for free grading so I sent the 21-S, the 24-S and the 26-S in for grading. PCGS graded them as XF-40, XF-40 and VF-30 respectively.

originalisbest

It's been my experience, for about 20 years now, that to find Buffs described only as "VF" in dealer stocks when they've a full horn is quite a rare thing!

lkenefic

I recently sold Buff Nickels that I acquired nearly 30 years ago that were graded VF (full horn) when I purchased them. In both cases, the dealer I sold them to graded them as full XF. Leo

Shamika

<< <i>About 15 years ago I put together a complete set, all dates and mintmarks, of VF Buffalo Nickels with full horns. >>


Absolutely can't be done today.

charlesf20

1916 XF FULL HORN worth 25 bucks?

jmlanzaf

@charlesf20 said:
1916 XF FULL HORN worth 25 bucks?

Huh? You're asking a question on a 15 year old thread???

charlesf20

I don't know I just got here, cut me some slack will ya? I saw the title about FULL HORN and got all excited.
Yeah the thread may be old but we are speaking of a coin 105 years old here, ok?

jmlanzaf

@charlesf20 said:
I don't know I just got here, cut me some slack will ya? I saw the title about FULL HORN and got all excited.
Yeah the thread may be old but we are speaking of a coin 105 years old here, ok?

But I don't understand the question...

ricko

In order to give a good answer to the question, we would need to see pictures, obverse and reverse. Otherwise, consult price guides and closed auctions. Cheers, RickO

Jzyskowski1

@charlesf20 said:
1916 XF FULL HORN worth 25 bucks?

Howdy and welcome. I like to check eBay sold listings. Then check current listings and compare. There are also price guides available online and at pcgs price guide. Remember to average things out and you’ll get close. 😉
For us to help more please post front (obverse) and rear (reverse) pictures. Thanks JZ

charlesf20

BuffaloIronTail

1916 Buffs are not rare (or scarce) with full horns. They were well struck with adequate pressure to ensure full horn detail.

Now, if you're talking 1924-S or 1926-D, for example, you would have to look far and wide to find one. They're out there, but awful scarce. It depends on the date and mint of manufacture.

A full-to the-tip horn Buffalo Nickel set would be something to see.

Coin Collecting is fun.

Pete

nwcoast

This is a set I’ve been working on for some years and continues to be a work in progress.
A handful are 3/4 horn, and as said, some mm’s have the tips lost most commonly.
My 16-p is a full horn, but my 13-d type 2 is weak and in need of upgrade.
I’m settling for 7/8 horns on some. Otherwise, my whole set is going to jump into Unc’s which would be a bit much for a Dansco. As is, about 1/3 rd of the Dansco Buff set is unc with a few of the nicest of the set residing outside the album and in slabs.
I love those Buffs, and YES, the full horns ARE hard to come by and pricey for several of them now!

MasonG

How about a "No Horn" MS62?

gumby1234

I would pass on any UNC Buffalo nickel that doesn't have a full horn. Thats just me.

FrankH

@LincolnCentMan said:
1919-S VF25 PCGS
Three Legger VF35 PCGS

I'd search for NGC and ANACS ones... but I have to go to work .

David

ANACS coins can be cool.

gumby1234

@FrankH ?

FrankH

@gumby1234 said:
@FrankH ?

Yes?

gumby1234

@FrankH Um nice coin, but not a buffalo nickel.