Derek Jeter wins the Gold Glove
XanaduNow
Posts: 1,718
in Sports Talk
Wow. Really? I guess they're not handing it out to the best defensive player at their respective positions.
Arthur
Arthur
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ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
First the Aaron award, then the gold glove, soon to be followed by MVP. There was discussion over giving him the Cy Young too, but in the end the powers that be felt doing so would cause suspicion.
-- Yogi Berra
Arthur
Jeter has been and continues to be a mediocre fielder...one need to look at his fielding percentage (near league average) and average zone rating...he's hardly deserving of a gold glove, ever.
Here come the usual suspects to say he deserves it because it's so tough to play in ny, how he is the captain of the team (though no one can define his role as captain), and he's just such a good person, garsh darn it people love him.
<< <i>
Here come the usual suspects to say he deserves it because it's so tough to play in ny, how he is the captain of the team (though no one can define his role as captain), and he's just such a good person, garsh darn it people love him. >>
yep, and of course the usual suspects to cry about it. Ummmmm Ax, its the same difference dude! You can't whimper about the "usual suspect" when you ARE one of them
Anyway, I have seen no report that backs this thread up yet .... anywhere.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>I guess they're not handing it out to the best defensive player at their respective positions. >>
The best predictor of who will win a Gold Glove is to see who won it the year before; actual fielding ability in the current year is a distant second, or maybe even third behind a player's hitting ability. This is why insanely long streaks of winning Gold Gloves are so common, and why Brooks Robinson can win 15 in a row even though there were third basemen who were just as good as he was who couldn't win any. Clete Boyer and Aurelio Rodriguez had seasons where they were clearly better than Robinson, but Robinson's streak had already begun, and he hit better than they did. Once a streak starts, it usually takes something extraordinary to end it.
Bottom line, Jeter obviously did not deserve the award this year, but this kind of thing has always happened with Gold Gloves; better to recognize the awards as meaningless than get bothered by who wins one in any given year.
<< <i> Bottom line, Jeter obviously did not deserve the award this year, but this kind of thing has always happened with Gold Gloves; better to recognize the awards as meaningless than get bothered by who wins one in any given year. >>
Great post, but the "usual suspects" will be blind to this "awards" history and claim foul only because it is Derek Jeter.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Young had the best fielding pct. at .981, and committed 14 errors. Jeter had a .975 fielding pct. and committed 15 errors.
The one category which Jeter trailed by a considerable amount is the zone rating, which measures the % of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive " zone." Uribe was the leader at .868, followed by Young at .836, Guillen at .832, Tejada at .824, Cabrera at .818, Peralta at .817, and Jeter at .810.
In a fair world Young was probably more deserving, but we all know life isnt exactly fair sometimes.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>In all honesty, there was no clear cut standout at SS this year.
Young had the best fielding pct. at .981, and committed 14 errors. Jeter had a .975 fielding pct. and committed 15 errors.
The one category which Jeter trailed by a considerable amount is the zone rating, which measures the % of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive " zone." Uribe was the leader at .868, followed by Young at .836, Guillen at .832, Tejada at .824, Cabrera at .818, Peralta at .817, and Jeter at .810.
In a fair world Young was probably more deserving, but we all know life isnt exactly fair sometimes. >>
Good analysis of the ZR...zone rating + fielding percentage should be what is used.
<< <i>Good analysis of the ZR...zone rating + fielding percentage should be what is used. >>
As with anything, the more data the better. Double plays should factor in somewhere, too. Ultimately, fielding statistics can't do much more than separate good fielders from bad fielders. Because some official scorers are more fielder-friendly than others, shortstops playing next to great third basemen or with great first basemen have an advantage and a hundred other things, fielding statistics alone rarely paint a complete picture.
I'd have given the award to Young this year, but I couldn't criticize anyone for voting for Peralta or Uribe or Gonzalez - maybe one or two others. That said, I would have been surprised if anyone other than Jeter had actually won it. He'll probably win it next year, too.
<< <i>I hear they decided to reward Jeter for ignoring Arod all year by giving him every award possible.
First the Aaron award, then the gold glove, soon to be followed by MVP. There was discussion over giving him the Cy Young too, but in the end the powers that be felt doing so would cause suspicion. >>
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
Obviously from what I mentioned in previous posts I would agree with Young being a good choice, but I dont see where double plays factor much into the equation.
Double plays are directly affected by the guy on the mound, as well as the players around the shortstop. It seems to me those variables are great enough to negate any effect they may have on one players stats or worth.
Dont get me wrong, Im not picking a fight here. I totally agree with everything else you said. Once a player wins the award its tough to knock him from his throne unless someone clearly stands above him. I just didnt get the point about double plays.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Dallas,
Obviously from what I mentioned in previous posts I would agree with Young being a good choice, but I dont see where double plays factor much into the equation.
Double plays are directly affected by the guy on the mound, as well as the players around the shortstop. It seems to me those variables are great enough to negate any effect they may have on one players stats or worth.
Dont get me wrong, Im not picking a fight here. I totally agree with everything else you said. Once a player wins the award its tough to knock him from his throne unless someone clearly stands above him. I just didnt get the point about double plays. >>
If one shortstop hustles more than another on possible double play balls, turns 10 more double plays but makes one more error as a result, then their zone ratings will be the same and the "slow" shortstop will have the better fielding% - but the "fast" shortstop helped his team more. I'm not sure if there's any easy mathematical way to account for that added value, but DPs are a stat worth looking at - I don't mean to imply anything more than that.
Lowell and Chavez were probably a toss-up, and Gonzalez only played 111 games (don't know if there is a minimum games played or not).
I mean 10 gold gloves, only 7 consecutive, yep.....
he really didn't deserve those awards, it was just
done with smoke and mirrors.....
oh yea....throw in Willie Mays and Roberto Clemente
as well.......Dick Stuart was the real winner in any contest
for all those years.....solid as they come.....
Some of these "MODERN" guys suck too, like Tori Hunter,
blah blah blah......you're right, The Gold Glove winners
are meaningless!
OK. "meaningless" is a bit harsh. But the point is that Gold Gloves are self-sustaining; once they start they often don't stop until the player retires. Al Kaline was a fine fielder, and he deserved several Gold Gloves, but if you think he deserved all seven of those consecutive awards, well, you're wrong.
I'll retract "meaningless". When a player wins his first Gold Glove Award, he usually deserves it - in fact he has probably deserved it at least once before. If he wins a second in a row, he probably deserved that one, too. After that, he will win them more years than not, and he will win them whether he deserves to or not. That's not quite the same as meaningless, but Gold Gloves are the most meaningless awards that are given.
There have been some MVP and Cy Young Awards given to people that weren't among the top 10 players or pitchers, but they have always gone to very good players and pitchers. Gold Glove Awards have not only gone to people who didn't deserve them, but to players who weren't even good; in one case, Rafael Palmeiro in 1999, to a player that didn't even play the position he won the award for more than about once a week.
Clemente, by the way, is a good example of this. He deserved a GG in 1958 but didn't get it. When he won his first one in 1961, he probably deserved it, but it was close. He won his magic second in a row in 1962, and deserved it, and then he won it every year for the rest of his career whether he deserved to or not. Sure, Celemente was a great right fielder, but like everyone else he had years when he wasn't so great. He wasn't even an average right fielder in 1963, he played hurt and it showed in 1970, and he was just taking up space (when he wasn't hurt) in 1972. Throw in merely good years in 1966 and 1968, and you have a right fielder who deserved to win seven or eight Gold Gloves. And that's great! That he won 12, all consecutively, is just an insult to our intelligence.
<< <i>I hear they decided to reward Jeter for ignoring Arod all year by giving him every award possible.
First the Aaron award, then the gold glove, soon to be followed by MVP. There was discussion over giving him the Cy Young too, but in the end the powers that be felt doing so would cause suspicion. >>
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>I agree with many of the comments made here but considering that gold gloves are voted on by managers and coaches in your own league, they can't be THAT meaningless. >>
Winning a Gold Glove signifies one of two things: that you were a great fielder this year, or you were a great fielder at some time in the past. The problem, since Gold Glove streaks stretch past 10 years with ridiculous frequency, is that more of the awards are given based on past greatness than on current greatness. Entire careers can come and go without a Gold Glove being won if a player is unlucky enough to come up right as a streak is beginning at his position. Aurelio Rodriguez managed to outlast Brooks Robinson and win one GG; Clete Boyer finally got traded to the NL so he could win one late in his career. Both those players should have a mantle full of Gold Gloves, and if the awards actually meant anything they would.
also, GG do mean somthing to the winner, pay raises for one.
if you feel someone is undeserving that is fine. But to claim it as fact when it is only opinion muddles it up and one can lose credibility.
Steve
This forum is overrun with those who yell to the hills about their "opinions" being the end all of all debates. It is more humerous now then it was when I first came here.
The Sports Talk forum is a propaganda machine
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Steve,
This forum is overrun with those who yell to the hills about their "opinions" being the end all of all debates. It is more humerous now then it was when I first came here.
The Sports Talk forum is a propaganda machine
The sports talk forum has become less and less about sports talk with each passing day lately.
-- Yogi Berra
sadly you are correct.
steve
IF Al Kaline and Roberto Clemente were not the best in those years, they didn't deserve it,
please tell me who should have won...I would be very interested to hear your answer.
Actually I would probably agree that Aurelio Rodriguez was a superb fielder......I was/am a Huge Tigers fan
(Grew up in Detroit)......
However, I would say that to say anyone was better at 3rd base than Brooks Robinson, I mean....I saw him
play a TON in the sixties and I don't recall anyone being as good as he. I actually (IMO) can't think of
anyone who I thought was even close to him.
While stats don't really always tell the story, former players who played with and/or against certain players
talk about the great ones in the same light. I think the players themselves are a true testament to who
won and who did not. I don't recall hearing from any of the old players complaining about someone
who won a gold glove. Some might complain that they didn't win it certain years, but certainly there
has been no history of players saying, " Oh, he won too many awards" and so on.
I have read and heard a lot of players talking about my favorite (KALINE) and every single time they talked
about him, they immediately talked about how frightened they were to run on him, because he could
gun you down on a rocket throw that was a no-bouncer in an instant. Clemente is spoken of in the the
same way, so, I still don't understand how you can just make your BLANK statement about getting
consecutive gold gloves. Catching baseballs aren't the only part of playing a great defensive position.
There is more to it than just a simple fielding percentage, although that would play a part in it.
Brooks was obviously the best, but that doesnt mean he was the best EVERY year. Everyone has their ups and downs, and like Dallas mentioned, its a matter of being dethroned, which is tough to do.
Kaat won what, 17 gold gloves ? Now, he may be the best fielding pitcher to play, but does that mean he was hands down the best EVERY year, or was it a case where he won on reputation some years when others may have had standout years and been equally or more deserving ?
-- Yogi Berra
And I bet if you asked a player if he cherished winning one he would say he did. Defense afterall wins games.
I find it funny that 16 gold gloves were awarded (I think) and only Jeter is worthy of a thread? who else won and was not deserving?
Steve
Almost forgot, Kaline is the ONLY guy to win a gold glove award at
two postions (AND IN CONSECUTIVE YEARS).
In 1958 for Right Field
In 1959 for Center Field.
Just wanted to throw that little tid-bit in there!
Tony
aka Kaline
Not much went right this season in Boston, but Alex Gonzalez and Mike Lowell played outstanding defense and made highlight reel plays at SS and 3B night after night.
The stats? Jeter made 15 errors, Gonzalez only 7. Jeter's FP - only .975, while Gonzalez's was .985. Zone Rating, you say? That would be .863 to .810, again in favor of Gonzalez. Did Jeter lead (or come close to leading) in anything? What a joke.
Of course, you have to throw stats, logic, and intelligence away when the name Derek Jeter is discussed.
<< <i>
Of course, you have to throw stats, logic, and intelligence away when the name Derek Jeter is discussed. >>
Now youre getting the hang of it Jerry
-- Yogi Berra
At first, I thought this statement was tongue-in-cheek, that makes it even more hilarious!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>At first, I thought this statement was tongue-in-cheek >>
It kind of is, and it kind of isn't.
But it damn sure is true.
<< <i>
<< <i>At first, I thought this statement was tongue-in-cheek >>
It kind of is, and it kind of isn't.
But it damn sure is true. >>
It blows. So now both MVP and Gold Glove is a popularity contest.
Since I made the statement, maybe I should have to go over the stats of the 30-something outfielders in each league one at a time and pick winners for each year; but I'm not going to. But it is fairly easy to pick out a few years in Kaline's or Clemente's streaks where they very clearly did NOT deserve it.
Since I am (admittedly) advocating a position and not trying to represent both sides, I will make clear one thing that I haven't explicitly said: Clemente and Kaline were both outstanding outfielders, the best or second best over the course of their careers in their respective leagues. But being the best over a 10 or 15 year stretch does not require that you get a Gold Glove each and every year. If Brooks Robinson had won 10 Gold Gloves - and actually earned every one of them - I think his reputation as the best third baseman of his era would be secure; it annoys the hell out of me that he has 15 and other players who deserved 2 or 3 apiece only got one. To paraphrase WP, the awards would not have been meaningless to those players - they only became meaningless when they were given to the wrong player.
Not sure that is even possible Jer, Gonzalez barely played 2/3 of the season at shortstop.
Jeter played night after night and he too made highlighted plays. More then Gonzalez. IMO
Fact remains, your guy played in 110 games at short. Jeter played 150+
Big difference that you left out.
Steve
sniff sniff sniff
Oh and Jer, why on earth are you touting Gonzalez 7 errors as though it meant anything? He played in 110 games!!!! That is 32% SHORT of a full year
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
It blows. So now both MVP and Gold Glove is a popularity contest. >>
I have to admit that the voting process has its flaws, that is for sure ..... BUT it has for years and years. I guess it just rankles more feathers whenever Jeter is involved for obvious reasons.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>What an absolute crock - Jeter is not even close to deserving a Gold Glove this season.
Not much went right this season in Boston, but Alex Gonzalez and Mike Lowell played outstanding defense and made highlight reel plays at SS and 3B night after night.
The stats? Jeter made 15 errors, Gonzalez only 7. Jeter's FP - only .975, while Gonzalez's was .985. Zone Rating, you say? That would be .863 to .810, again in favor of Gonzalez. Did Jeter lead (or come close to leading) in anything? What a joke.
Of course, you have to throw stats, logic, and intelligence away when the name Derek Jeter is discussed. >>
Talk about a crock, Gonzo played 110 games. He doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Jeter.
Mark Mulder rookies
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Orlando Cabrera rookies
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1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
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VintageJeff
Mark Mulder rookies
Chipper Jones rookies
Orlando Cabrera rookies
Lawrence Taylor
Sam Huff
Lavar Arrington
NY Giants
NY Yankees
NJ Nets
NJ Devils
1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
GregM13
VintageJeff
<< <i>
Almost forgot, Kaline is the ONLY guy to win a gold glove award at
two postions (AND IN CONSECUTIVE YEARS).
In 1958 for Right Field
In 1959 for Center Field.
Just wanted to throw that little tid-bit in there!
Tony
aka Kaline
Uhh... Darin Erstad won it in 2000 and 2002 as an outfielder and 2004 as a first baseman...
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
<< <i>Palmeiro won the award a couple of years ago for 17 games at firstbase thats a hell of a lot less then 110. This also helps to go along with dallas and the others that stated this award is not really going to the best for each year but is more of a career award. >>
Thank you.
Face it - the Gold Glove should go to the best fielder at each respective position, and I think even Stevie Wonder would tell you that just isn't Jeter at SS in the AL. It might be Gonzalez (my opinion), it might be Young, but it sure isn't Jeter. Not once did any of you guys who took a shot at Gonzalez playing in 110 games come up with statistical evidence that Jeter should have won.
But, statistical evidence is often lacking when "Captain Intangibles" is given an award of some type.
sd
Only Derek Jeter seems to win awards for things he does not actually "win".
steve
Mark Mulder rookies
Chipper Jones rookies
Orlando Cabrera rookies
Lawrence Taylor
Sam Huff
Lavar Arrington
NY Giants
NY Yankees
NJ Nets
NJ Devils
1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
GregM13
VintageJeff
Attention : " NLY A NUMBER".....I stated "CONSECUTIVE YEARS"
2000 and 2002 are NOT consecutive years.
But that is impressive still, I forgot about that one.
<< <i>Jerry, who would you rather have(honestly) Alex Gonzalez or Derek Jeter? >>
That's not the point - the purpose of the award is for one thing only. Best defense. Not "who's the better all around player" - just simply, who played the best defense at a given position during the season?
And, sorry guys - that person is not named Derek Jeter. I'm not sure why this is a difficult concept to grasp.