"Recolored" Copper coins

lkenefic

What exactly does it mean when copper has been "recolored"? I've poured over my ANA grading book about toning and it seems that this can mean any number of things. The coins I'm specifically referencing are Large Cents and Half-Cents. I've seen advertisements for "Dellers' Darkener"...is this the product that has been applied to "recolor" copper once it has been cleaned or dipped? If so, is there any way to remove it without further damage to the coin. I've seen the comment "recol" on several Grellman-graded Large Cents and they do have a peculiar look. I'm just wondering how it got there and what, if anything, can be done about it.

Leo

WoodenJefferson

Know nothing about the stuff...but someone here will, but this stuff does exsist

notwilight

I just ordered some of this to play with. I'll post results.

--Jerry

Dog97

Recolored simply means they have been cleaned and have retoned by various means. Deller's is basically vasoline & sulphur which retones the unnatural pink color of cleaned copper. You can wash the greaseness off but the retoned look remains.

dorkkarl

dellers all by itself will not recolor a copper coin in a convincing fashion. but in combination w/ certain other techniques, the results are convincing. an expert can often recolor a copper such that NObody can tell.

K S

MikeInFL

Basically it means a cleaned and retoned coin.

As Karl pointed out, the best of the recolored coins are very hard to detect. Many recolored large cents, however, are easier as they often have an "even" color.

Here are a few examples of (what I believe to be) recolored large cents:





[edited for clarity]

Cladiator

Mike,

Just to play devil's advocate...

How do you know those large cents have been re-colored? Is it that uncommon for a large cent to have smooth uniform color naturally?

MikeInFL

<< <i>How do you know those large cents have been re-colored? Is it that uncommon for a large cent to have smooth uniform color naturally? >>



I didn't recolor them, so I don't know for sure...

The first coin is a no-brainer (to me). Some of whatever was used to darken it was still on the coin when I received it.

The second coin I am a bit less sure of, but the color doesn't seem like one that naturally occurs on copper. It is too even and too "black" or "steel" colored.

MikeInFL

Here's another one from Shawn Yancey's site that is labeled "looks recolored"



And another labeled "poorly recolored":



And a third (that has the "even" look I was referring to in my first post), labeled "old cleaning, mostly retoned":

MikeInFL

Here are a few from Heritage, all showing the even coloration I was referring to (note the "worn" areas are much the same color as the "non-worn" areas -- this is a key that I look for):





A search for "recolored" in the Heritage archives will show you lots of examples of these coins, including some that would have fooled me from the pictures....Mike

1798CentCollector

Recoloring can be easily detected or in some cases extremely difficult to detect even by the expects particulariliy old recolorings expertly done. It's usually done to restore the look of a coin after cleaning. There are the standard and well known products used and there are some interesting products and home remedies and techniques used to recolor a coin. My definition is an applied product or method used to recreate or simulate the color of an original cent. Recovering an aged look can also be acheived via retoning which is typical of non product induced methods like putting the cent in a sunny windowsill. Other may define this differently.

Although, recoloring has been perfectly acceptable in copper for forever - it's often poorly done, and only occasionally IMO improves a coin when done expertly. Coins are usually netted down at least 5 and tyically 10 points for cleaning and recoloring. I observed several late date large cents in an auction last year that were recolored and looked absolutely fabulous - even the old-time experts that wrote "the books" were fooled. The coins were aptly noted in the lot description as recolored as the consignor disclosed the information . I was told a cream was used to recolor the cents.

rhedden

1798centcollector's icon coin is recolored! I know because I used to own that coin, and it had "perfect" even tan color on both sides, with no dirt (verdigris) surrounding the devices. The previous owner also thought it had been recolored. It was still a heck of a nice S-155, though.

1798CentCollector

I was duped on the icon!! Still like that rev of '96 however.

coinguy1

I usually think of "re-coloring" of copper coins as signifying that something has been done to simulate original red ("RD") color as opposed to red/brown ("RB") or brown ("BN") color, or even to simulate red/brown color instead of brown. Bottom line, the color has been artificially changed and/or enhanced.

lkenefic

Here's an 1850 that was Grellman graded as 20/15 "recol" /"nicks" on the attribution card:









I also have this 1802 that has the "uniform" look to it but is a bit more difficult to tell...IMO:

BillJones

<< <i>Here are a few from Heritage, all showing the even coloration I was referring to (note the "worn" areas are much the same color as the "non-worn" areas -- this is a key that I look for):





A search for "recolored" in the Heritage archives will show you lots of examples of these coins, including some that would have fooled me from the pictures....Mike >>



That theory did not work for this 1797 half cent, which came back, "artificial toning."

lkenefic

Mike...I'd be hard-pressed to call the 1851 recolored. Is it just me or does it appear that there is dirt in the devices?

coinbuf

<<Mike...I'd be hard-pressed to call the 1851 recolored. Is it just me or does it appear that there is dirt in the devices? >>

I dont think thats dirt but just areas where the recoloring agent did not come off as well.

Chris

carl

I've had great results with gun blueing for restoring original looks to cleaned coins.

MikeInFL

<< <i>That theory did not work for this 1797 half cent, which came back, "artificial toning."

>>



Bill,

That's a good point. The "even" look is helpful in identifying many of the recolored coins, but the absense of this look -- as evidenced by your coin -- does not necessarily put you in the clear. The "recolorers" know this and attempt to impart the "circulated cameo" look on VGis coins or "high point color" look on VF+ as is seen on your coin which was done by somebody with more skill than some of the other examples shown.

All IMHO....

Take care...Mike

Cladiator

This is fast becomming an extremely good thread that I can feel will be referred to time and time again in the future. Keep up the good work people!

MikeInFL

<< <i>Mike...I'd be hard-pressed to call the 1851 recolored. Is it just me or does it appear that there is dirt in the devices? >>



IMHO, It is the toughest one to spot. Here are larger photos and a link to the auction:




This is also a pretty good job.

Hope this helps...Mike

MikeInFL

<< <i>I usually think of "re-coloring" of copper coins as signifying that something has been done to simulate original red ("RD") color as opposed to red/brown ("RB") or brown ("BN") color, or even to simulate red/brown color instead of brown. Bottom line, the color has been artificially changed and/or enhanced. >>



Mark,

Good point and something that hadn't even occured to me; being more focused on circulated large cents (until recently ).

Here are a few that have been identified by ANACS as recolored:

Coin #1 a pretty obvious one:


Coin #2


Coin #3


Coin #4

MikeInFL

For anybody interested, here's a complete list of the Heritage "recolored" archives

MikeKing

you know, it's very difficult. i've always felt that you get a sense of copper as a metal and when you look at a copper you're going to see copper as a metal affected by something, because it's so reactive. copper can be treated by so many different chemicals that can cause a reaction that eventually wears off and then environmental reaction continues on top of that.

the little i do know is that pinkish hues and a sort of metal 'exposure', I don't know how to explain it, but it's just a sense I get when handling copper, is evidence that the copper has been treated, whether or not it's in a tpg holder.

then there's the whole thing with blue copper which has been exhaustively discussed here and accross the street such that if I see any blue on copper, no matter how attractive, I just won't buy it. And I'm sure there are some that are 'natural' but I can't figure it out.

yes, this is a good thread, and I never thought of doing an archive search on copper labeled as colored, which means I've got a lot more to study.

dorkkarl

<< <i>I usually think of "re-coloring" of copper coins as signifying that something has been done to simulate original red ("RD") color as opposed to red/brown ("RB") or brown ("BN") color, or even to simulate red/brown color instead of brown. Bottom line, the color has been artificially changed and/or enhanced. >>

i suspect that copper is more often recolored to brown than red or reddish-brown. most certainly that's the case w/ early copper

K S

kranky

Great thread! Appreciate the insights you guys have shared.

Leiana

This is very helpful to me, as I have heard of recolored large cents but I didn't really know what to look for. I can tell messed with silver or nickel a lot better than messed with copper usually. Thank you for teaching!

-Amanda

BillJones

The thing that really burns me about all of the body bags that PCGS and NGC issue for high grade early copper coins is they way grade and slab so many gold and silver coins that have had far more work done on them. I see early dollars that have been heavily cleaned in both brands of slabs all the time. Virtually every early gold coin you see on the market now has been stripped. NCS has screwed up so many gold coins with their heavy handed “restoration” procedures that it’s a scandal.

Some NGC gold coins are now ticking time bombs. NCS dips off the copper stains, but the “fix” is not permanent. In a year or so the copper comes to the surface again, which lowers the value for the unlucky buyers of such pieces who are holding them when they change. The same can be said for Buffalo nickels that have been “conserved.”

No, there are sins that are worse than some of things that have been done to some early copper, and yet those coins get body bags while their gold and silver counterparts are labeled as “acceptable.”

dorkkarl

going back to mike-in-fl's post, my guesses are

1851 -> that's a dellers darkener job, not too badly done, but was not "adjusted" properly after application

1845 -> a crappy sulfur vapor job, very poorly done. could also be dellers applied to a coin that was overheated (dellers is best applied to a "warm" coin to ensure even distribution), but i'd bet it was done w/ the old "coin in a jar w/ wooden matches)

1856 -> heat-job done on a bright-pink coin

1856 -> another dellers job, very poorly done on a pink coin

1818 -> yet another dellers job, but a coin that can probably be fairly easily saved

K S

AuldFartte

Poorly recolored, IMHO ...

lkenefic

Karl

I agree with your earlier comments about older copper coins being re-colored to a brown color rather than RB or RD. Most of the coins I'm in the market for these days are in the VF-AU range for Braided Hairs (1839-1857) or F+ to VF range for mid dates (1816-1839). There's significant wear on these coins and recoloring them to RD or RB status stands out like a sore thumb. However, that being said, I did purchase an 1852 that looked all the world an AU58 RB. I got an OK price on it and had it in my collection for about a year before I got onto other aspects of my collection and wanted to sell it. I had this coin evaluated by three different people whom I hold in high regard for copper. The grades ranged from AU50 to MS60 and nobody made any mention of whether or not the coin had been recolored...even when pressed, all three said that it was original color and had not been cleaned...whizzed...whatever. Feeling confident at this point, I put it up for auction as being AU55 with no qualifiers... and no reserve. I got pounded. The coin sold for less than half of what I had into it and the buyer e-mailed me back that it had obviously been "whizzed". I was flabberghasted. I had this coin under a 30x stereo-microscope and couldn't detect any whiz lines. I guess this serves to underscore how difficult it is to accurately diagnose problems with early copper coinage.

Also...to get back on point... You state that Mikes' 1818 -> "yet another dellers job, but a coin that can probably be fairly easily saved"...how would one go about saving this piece? I have two pieces that have been recolored (see previous post... an 1850 and an 1802) and I don't think I'll play around with those, but I do have an obviously cleaned 1844 that I would like to attempt to restore. I've got less than $25 in this piece so if things go horribly wrong I won't feel so bad.

One last comment... For those buying early coppers... I have two "recolored" Large Cents in my collection: the 1850 with a Bob Grellman attribution card and an 1802 that I purchased raw and unattributed (I believe it to be recolored). I have one obviously "cleaned/dipped" coin that sticks out like a sore thumb. The color is just all wrong. So... Does "Cleaned" carry more of a stigma than "Recolored"? If so, how can one tell a cleaned coin [cleaned by dipping...not an abrasive that leaved lines] that has been recolored after the cleaning/dipping?

Thanks...Leo

dorkkarl

auld-farte's 1828 is indeed another deller job gone awry. the coin was heated when the deller's was dabbed on, resulting in the nasty black crap, & the reverse was not thoroghly stripped prior to application,



<< <i>I agree with your earlier comments about older copper coins being re-colored to a brown color rather than RB or RD. Most of the coins I'm in the market for these days are in the VF-AU range for Braided Hairs (1839-1857) or F+ to VF range for mid dates (1816-1839). There's significant wear on these coins and recoloring them to RD or RB status stands out like a sore thumb. >>

bingo. that's exactly right.



<< <i>Also...to get back on point... You state that Mikes' 1818 -> "yet another dellers job, but a coin that can probably be fairly easily saved"...how would one go about saving this piece? >>

that coin must be stripped back down to get rid of the botched residue, which will result in a pink coin. if it were my coin, personally i'd simply have a world of patience by putting the coin in a kraft envelope & letting it rest for a LONG time. but any good copper doctor is gonna wanna retone it w/ a sufur compound, combined w/ heat to "set" the color, & finally a blue-ribbon (or similar) treatment to "even out" the color. it's a randall coin, so it probably really is/was UNC at 1 time.

"cleaned" does not carry any more of a stigma then "recolored" - it's judged on a case by case basis. that being said, i'd rather (actually much rather) have a dipped copper then a abrasively cleaned copper, because a dipped coin can be allowed to retone naturally by sitting in a proper environment. it can be much tougher to undo a bad recolor job though, because that involves 2 steps - strip & recolor.

note that i'm using "naturally" the way most of y'all use it. in actuality, i don't consider kraft toning to be "natural", but it's unlikely you could find a way to circulate a early copper to reacquire a truly natural look, other then to tumble it (which removes detail).

bottom line is that there's some wild paranoia about cleaned copper. i mean, hey, it's happened a few times in TWO HUNDRED years. but i'd MUCH rather have a nicely recolored large-cent then a pink 1

K S

CaptainRon

A bump, just in case I can not post the link in another thread.

Longacre

Great thread!

IrishMike

<< <i>I usually think of "re-coloring" of copper coins as signifying that something has been done to simulate original red ("RD") color as opposed to red/brown ("RB") or brown ("BN") color, or even to simulate red/brown color instead of brown. Bottom line, the color has been artificially changed and/or enhanced. >>



I think this is an example of what Mark was referring to in an attempt to restore it to an original red. You can see the pinkish hue and the spots that were left behind from the cleaning. It was net-graded at NCS for Artificial color. This appearance is common on artificially colored IHC's, however not usually done this well.