Dave, I am not 100% positive but I thought I read somewhere on Heritage site that if you have bought a coin from them then they automatically put it into "my collection" in the "my heritage" section. Like I said I am not 100% positive but it may be a place to look and see if they did this with your coin so maybe you can get some pics of it in the slab
What ever the grey was it wasn't toning. Acetone is an organic solvent and will not remove "real" toning. I've put many coins both copper and silver in acetone, and it has never messed with the toning.
JJ
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
<< <i>What ever the grey was it wasn't toning. Acetone is an organic solvent and will not remove "real" toning. I've put many coins both copper and silver in acetone, and it has never messed with the toning. JJ >>
He didn't come right out and say it but he made it clear he went beyond acetone. Lets not use the D word....
I want to say that I, and I believe all the readers except one, never questioned the original poster's integrity.
<< <i>What ever the grey was it wasn't toning. Acetone is an organic solvent and will not remove "real" toning. I've put many coins both copper and silver in acetone, and it has never messed with the toning. JJ >>
He didn't come right out and say it but he made it clear he went beyond acetone. Lets not use the D word....
I want to say that I, and I believe all the readers except one, never questioned the original poster's integrity.
--Jerry >>
Oops, I guess I should thoroughly read the post before responding.
JJ
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
<< <i>Dave, I am not 100% positive but I thought I read somewhere on Heritage site that if you have bought a coin from them then they automatically put it into "my collection" in the "my heritage" section. Like I said I am not 100% positive but it may be a place to look and see if they did this with your coin so maybe you can get some pics of it in the slab >>
You're right, Bryan. It was in My Collection, which is a Heritage feature I'm actively using. That's something to remember for the future. I snagged those pics for my photo record of this coin, which is now up to 75MB.
Just for the record, I'm posting the coin in the slab. The originals are much larger than this. In the interest of disclosure, I've corrected the images for white balance. The last pic is resized but otherwise untouched.
I have no desire for anyone to "make it right," nor do I lay any blame. I do not expect either PCGS or Heritage to expend the resources necessary to see through whatever happened here, on a $50 coin that was likely part of a bulk submission. I will buy from Heritage again, and I will buy coins in PCGS slabs again. I posted this thread as a caution, just as I warn people about toning - the doctors can imitate reality well enough to deceive the experts, so be on your toes and forswear the blame game for the waste of time it is.
And, yes, the "d" word was involved. At no time during the whole process did anything except liquid touch the faces of the coin.
Proudly upholding derelict standards for five decades.
<< <i>Please provide the link to the Heritage BIN auction you bought this from. >>
The BIN coins are just coins in Heritage's regular inventory. Once you buy them, the link expires and there is no record of the coin being purchased with just one exception...
<< <i> Dave, I am not 100% positive but I thought I read somewhere on Heritage site that if you have bought a coin from them then they automatically put it into "my collection" in the "my heritage" section. Like I said I am not 100% positive but it may be a place to look and see if they did this with your coin so maybe you can get some pics of it in the slab >>
Bingo! This is absolutely correct. I can review EVERY coin I've ever purchased either through Heritage's inventory or on-line auctions. The sales include the date or purchase, purchase price, and images for any purchase made within the last three years or so.
I want to know how a coin that harshly cleaned got past the graders at PCGS. Obviously, they're not looking at the coins they're grading closely enough!
<< <i>I want to know how a coin that harshly cleaned got past the graders at PCGS. Obviously, they're not looking at the coins they're grading closely enough! >>
True dat, but how close are you required to look at a $50 coin with a pop of 5000/10,000? I'm hardly an expert, but the problems sneaked past me spending 20 minutes with it under the loupe, another half-hour at 60x in the QX5, and 30 high-res macro shots. For the record, I loupe under daylight - I'm right next to a window - and you know how harsh daylight is on scratches. This would be an entirely different story if I'd spent a $kilobuck on the coin, but letting this one through does not meet my definition of a major screwup.
Proudly upholding derelict standards for five decades.
PCGS missing the coin doesn't shock me in the least. They've missed them before, and I'm sure they'll miss them again....
However, one question that remains in my mind is how difficult would it have been to detect the hairlines before the coin was given a bath -- with the hope that something like this can be detected through careful in-hand inspection? Anyone care to comment?
A second question that occurs is do we know this coin was doctored in order to hide the hairlines? I'm not sold either way, but I must admit that the coin looked very natural to me.
Just wondering...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>PCGS missing the coin doesn't shock me in the least. They've missed them before, and I'm sure they'll miss them again....
However, one question that remains in my mind is how difficult would it have been to detect the hairlines before the coin was given a bath -- with the hope that something like this can be detected through careful in-hand inspection? Anyone care to comment?
A second question that occurs is do we know this coin was doctored in order to hide the hairlines? I'm not sold either way, but I must admit that the coin looked very natural to me.
Just wondering...Mike >>
I was much more cursory in my loupe examination than I would have been for a raw coin - I was interested in die cracks, not polishing lines - and as a result I didn't do much rotation or changing of the angles I looked from. That's standard procedure for me with raw coins, because you have to get the light just right to see some cleanings. Having said that, I did a lot of indirect lighting during the photo shoot, to highlight the cracks, and I should think some of those would have nailed the lines.
In fact, they did, in a couple of cases and in small areas. At least one reverse shot showed lines around the motto. I still don't think that I'd have pegged this one as cleaned while still in the original toning.
I do not know, in the legal sense, that this coin was doctored to hide the cleaning. However, the "after" pics I took are somewhat exaggerative of the effect - no lines are visible to the naked eye, the coin shows very nice cartwheeling, and I can only catch it at 10x at acute angles. It's really a very nice coin to the naked eye, probably a 64 candidate. So, I conclude that the cleaning itself was both deliberate, and careful. The logical conclusion is that the toning was accelerated to hide the cleaning.
But, no, I can't see ever proving that the coin was deliberately toned.
Proudly upholding derelict standards for five decades.
Comments
<< <i>Must be an error, PCGS would never grade a cleaned coin!
Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!
-------------
etexmike
Rob
http://www.vamworld.com
and
http://www.rjrc.com
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ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Did you only use acetone? Did you dip it as well?
If you only used acetone, did you "help" the curation with a q-tip? I have seen this happen (q-tip will leave hairlines on silver).
You should have bid on the one I sold on eBay two months ago. My 1921-D VAM 1F was a MUCH nicer coin (no hairlines !) and it sold for just $30.
eBay 1921-D VAM 1F Morgan Dollar
JJ
<< <i>What ever the grey was it wasn't toning. Acetone is an organic solvent and will not remove "real" toning. I've put many coins both copper and silver in acetone, and it has never messed with the toning. JJ >>
He didn't come right out and say it but he made it clear he went beyond acetone. Lets not use the D word....
I want to say that I, and I believe all the readers except one, never questioned the original poster's integrity.
--Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>What ever the grey was it wasn't toning. Acetone is an organic solvent and will not remove "real" toning. I've put many coins both copper and silver in acetone, and it has never messed with the toning. JJ >>
He didn't come right out and say it but he made it clear he went beyond acetone. Lets not use the D word....
I want to say that I, and I believe all the readers except one, never questioned the original poster's integrity.
--Jerry >>
Oops, I guess I should thoroughly read the post before responding.
JJ
troll
<< <i>Dave, I am not 100% positive but I thought I read somewhere on Heritage site that if you have bought a coin from them then they automatically put it into "my collection" in the "my heritage" section. Like I said I am not 100% positive but it may be a place to look and see if they did this with your coin so maybe you can get some pics of it in the slab >>
You're right, Bryan. It was in My Collection, which is a Heritage feature I'm actively using. That's something to remember for the future. I snagged those pics for my photo record of this coin, which is now up to 75MB.
Just for the record, I'm posting the coin in the slab. The originals are much larger than this. In the interest of disclosure, I've corrected the images for white balance. The last pic is resized but otherwise untouched.
I have no desire for anyone to "make it right," nor do I lay any blame. I do not expect either PCGS or Heritage to expend the resources necessary to see through whatever happened here, on a $50 coin that was likely part of a bulk submission. I will buy from Heritage again, and I will buy coins in PCGS slabs again. I posted this thread as a caution, just as I warn people about toning - the doctors can imitate reality well enough to deceive the experts, so be on your toes and forswear the blame game for the waste of time it is.
And, yes, the "d" word was involved. At no time during the whole process did anything except liquid touch the faces of the coin.
<< <i>Please provide the link to the Heritage BIN auction you bought this from. >>
The BIN coins are just coins in Heritage's regular inventory. Once you buy them, the link expires and there is no record of the coin being purchased with just one exception...
<< <i> Dave, I am not 100% positive but I thought I read somewhere on Heritage site that if you have bought a coin from them then they automatically put it into "my collection" in the "my heritage" section. Like I said I am not 100% positive but it may be a place to look and see if they did this with your coin so maybe you can get some pics of it in the slab >>
Bingo! This is absolutely correct. I can review EVERY coin I've ever purchased either through Heritage's inventory or on-line auctions. The sales include the date or purchase, purchase price, and images for any purchase made within the last three years or so.
<< <i>I want to know how a coin that harshly cleaned got past the graders at PCGS. Obviously, they're not looking at the coins they're grading closely enough!
True dat, but how close are you required to look at a $50 coin with a pop of 5000/10,000? I'm hardly an expert, but the problems sneaked past me spending 20 minutes with it under the loupe, another half-hour at 60x in the QX5, and 30 high-res macro shots. For the record, I loupe under daylight - I'm right next to a window - and you know how harsh daylight is on scratches. This would be an entirely different story if I'd spent a $kilobuck on the coin, but letting this one through does not meet my definition of a major screwup.
However, one question that remains in my mind is how difficult would it have been to detect the hairlines before the coin was given a bath -- with the hope that something like this can be detected through careful in-hand inspection? Anyone care to comment?
A second question that occurs is do we know this coin was doctored in order to hide the hairlines? I'm not sold either way, but I must admit that the coin looked very natural to me.
Just wondering...Mike
Here's one of my cherrypicks..............
<< <i>My apologies for asking hard questions
Here's one of my cherrypicks..............
It's bad enough you had to call me out, and now you've got to make me jealous too?
I'm gonna find one of those in MS65, and stalk you, posting a pic of it in every thread you post in.
<< <i>
It's bad enough you had to call me out, and now you've got to make me jealous too?
I'm gonna find one of those in MS65, and stalk you, posting a pic of it in every thread you post in. >>
$14 shipped about 2 years ago.
<< <i>PCGS missing the coin doesn't shock me in the least. They've missed them before, and I'm sure they'll miss them again....
However, one question that remains in my mind is how difficult would it have been to detect the hairlines before the coin was given a bath -- with the hope that something like this can be detected through careful in-hand inspection? Anyone care to comment?
A second question that occurs is do we know this coin was doctored in order to hide the hairlines? I'm not sold either way, but I must admit that the coin looked very natural to me.
Just wondering...Mike >>
I was much more cursory in my loupe examination than I would have been for a raw coin - I was interested in die cracks, not polishing lines - and as a result I didn't do much rotation or changing of the angles I looked from. That's standard procedure for me with raw coins, because you have to get the light just right to see some cleanings. Having said that, I did a lot of indirect lighting during the photo shoot, to highlight the cracks, and I should think some of those would have nailed the lines.
In fact, they did, in a couple of cases and in small areas. At least one reverse shot showed lines around the motto. I still don't think that I'd have pegged this one as cleaned while still in the original toning.
I do not know, in the legal sense, that this coin was doctored to hide the cleaning. However, the "after" pics I took are somewhat exaggerative of the effect - no lines are visible to the naked eye, the coin shows very nice cartwheeling, and I can only catch it at 10x at acute angles. It's really a very nice coin to the naked eye, probably a 64 candidate. So, I conclude that the cleaning itself was both deliberate, and careful. The logical conclusion is that the toning was accelerated to hide the cleaning.
But, no, I can't see ever proving that the coin was deliberately toned.
<< <i>Did you only use acetone? Did you dip it as well?
If you only used acetone, did you "help" the curation with a q-tip? I have seen this happen (q-tip will leave hairlines on silver). >>
Not according to Laura.