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Well, I learned a lesson today. (sizable pics)
1921obsession
Posts: 559 ✭
Recently I acquired an MS 1921-D VAM-1F. Even with relatively dull toning, I snagged it because the price was right and my current example is EF at best.
Seemed pretty clean, in-hand. Even before the purchase, I was wondering to myself, "Hmmmmm. I wonder what luster might lay under this ugly toning...." Then I saw this:
Ungood. Not a color I want to see sticking to silver. So, into acetone it went. The bath went well - nasty stuff went away, and I'm a happy camper. "Okay," I say to myself, "I'm in a mood to take a risk. Let's see what's behind this crappy grey." So, I went there. What was under the crappy grey? Very nice cartwheels and MS63 details at my first look. Now I'm an even happier camper. It's not Condition Census, but it's a substantial example of the VAM, a very late die state with big old horns on the O in OF. This one's a keeper.
Then I put it under the loupe, and the world changed.
Not only has it been cleaned, it's been scrubbed - the lines go in multiple directions. I have to admit, I was a little suspicious of the color, and now I know why. Understand, I have a pretty refined procedure for how I handle jobs like this - the drying surface is an old, 100-wash 100% cotton t-shirt, and the coin never moves in any direction but vertically, up and down. I use CoinEdge holders to hold coins under my microscope, which allow no movement of the contained coin. I am confident that nothing in my handling of this coin could have caused these lines. They were there, under what is now obviously some sort of artificial toning, before I bought the coin. Well, mea culpa.
Here's the punchline:
It was a Buy It Now cherrypick from Heritage.
Seemed pretty clean, in-hand. Even before the purchase, I was wondering to myself, "Hmmmmm. I wonder what luster might lay under this ugly toning...." Then I saw this:
Ungood. Not a color I want to see sticking to silver. So, into acetone it went. The bath went well - nasty stuff went away, and I'm a happy camper. "Okay," I say to myself, "I'm in a mood to take a risk. Let's see what's behind this crappy grey." So, I went there. What was under the crappy grey? Very nice cartwheels and MS63 details at my first look. Now I'm an even happier camper. It's not Condition Census, but it's a substantial example of the VAM, a very late die state with big old horns on the O in OF. This one's a keeper.
Then I put it under the loupe, and the world changed.
Not only has it been cleaned, it's been scrubbed - the lines go in multiple directions. I have to admit, I was a little suspicious of the color, and now I know why. Understand, I have a pretty refined procedure for how I handle jobs like this - the drying surface is an old, 100-wash 100% cotton t-shirt, and the coin never moves in any direction but vertically, up and down. I use CoinEdge holders to hold coins under my microscope, which allow no movement of the contained coin. I am confident that nothing in my handling of this coin could have caused these lines. They were there, under what is now obviously some sort of artificial toning, before I bought the coin. Well, mea culpa.
Here's the punchline:
It was a Buy It Now cherrypick from Heritage.
Proudly upholding derelict standards for five decades.
0
Comments
Quite a tale!
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
I'm with Amanda!
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
This is sad.
And the punch line...........................I like the punch line.
Herb
<< <i>Question, with that amount of hairlines, you couldn't see them under the toning before you removed it? >>
Yes, I would have thought with that kind of abuse, it would have been noticeable prior to any bath/dip. . .
Semper ubi sub ubi
Though, first thing I thought when I saw your 1st pic was "cleaned".
I didn't know it had been holdered....just has a "cleaned" look to me. I didn't realize how harshly cleaned though
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
PCGS is flawless!
">"http://www.cashcrate.com/5663377"
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
After:
Obviously, I have no recourse here, nor do I desire one. I would like to know what could accelerate that particular color on a Morgan well enough to deceive a TPG, though.
"La Vostra Nonna Ha Faccia Del Fungo"
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>It was a Buy It Now cherrypick from Heritage. >>
Please provide the link to the Heritage BIN auction you bought this from.
Thanks
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<< <i>It was a Buy It Now cherrypick from Heritage. >>
Please provide the link to the Heritage BIN auction you bought this from.
Thanks
If you know how to link to non-Auction Heritage sales, let me know and I'll be happy to provide it. I originally wanted to link the original listing on their site as part of the my OP, but was unable to find an archive of the Buy It Now stuff.
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<< <i>It was a Buy It Now cherrypick from Heritage. >>
Please provide the link to the Heritage BIN auction you bought this from.
Thanks
If you know how to link to non-Auction Heritage sales, let me know and I'll be happy to provide it. I originally wanted to link the original listing on their site as part of the my OP, but was unable to find an archive of the Buy It Now stuff. >>
Do you have any pics, front and back, of it before you cracked it out ?
.
As for what the heavy grey stuff was: Silver Sulfide. This is what tarnish looks like on your great grandma's silver, right? Color toning progresses to dark grey to black. Look at some of the heavily toned AT coins of recent and I think you'll see areas of this color in the higher exposure areas--probably very similar to an NT coin that had been left on a shelf for 100 years (assuming dust didn't protect it). --Jerry
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<< <i>It was a Buy It Now cherrypick from Heritage. >>
Please provide the link to the Heritage BIN auction you bought this from.
Thanks
If you know how to link to non-Auction Heritage sales, let me know and I'll be happy to provide it. I originally wanted to link the original listing on their site as part of the my OP, but was unable to find an archive of the Buy It Now stuff. >>
Do you have any pics, front and back, of it before you cracked it out ?
. >>
No. It wasn't my plan to be sold a bum coin in a PCGS holder, and then have my integrity questioned here because I mentioned it. I don't know how you were raised, but my parents taught me not to speak unless I had truth to say. Go troll somewhere else.
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<< <i>It was a Buy It Now cherrypick from Heritage. >>
Please provide the link to the Heritage BIN auction you bought this from.
Thanks
If you know how to link to non-Auction Heritage sales, let me know and I'll be happy to provide it. I originally wanted to link the original listing on their site as part of the my OP, but was unable to find an archive of the Buy It Now stuff. >>
Do you have any pics, front and back, of it before you cracked it out ?
. >>
No. It wasn't my plan to be sold a bum coin in a PCGS holder, and then have my integrity questioned here because I mentioned it. I don't know how you were raised, but my parents taught me not to speak unless I had truth to say. Go troll somewhere else. >>
Interesting response
Ok, i'll just come out and say it since you're getting defensive so quickly.
I think you're BS'ing us. The obverse doesn't look like the same coin in the two pictures.
Prove me wrong.
.
<< <i>Now that we can see what's underneath, the first picture looks like it has a type of "fog" over the surfaces. What could do that? >>
My guess is that someone puttied the hell out of it. The question is: "Why would someone putty a harshly cleaned common date MS Morgan?" It does not seem that there would be much economic incentive to do so.
<< <i>Must be an error, PCGS would never grade a cleaned coin!
I'll second that Marty, they never would
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<< <i>It was a Buy It Now cherrypick from Heritage. >>
Please provide the link to the Heritage BIN auction you bought this from.
Thanks
If you know how to link to non-Auction Heritage sales, let me know and I'll be happy to provide it. I originally wanted to link the original listing on their site as part of the my OP, but was unable to find an archive of the Buy It Now stuff. >>
Do you have any pics, front and back, of it before you cracked it out ?
. >>
No. It wasn't my plan to be sold a bum coin in a PCGS holder, and then have my integrity questioned here because I mentioned it. I don't know how you were raised, but my parents taught me not to speak unless I had truth to say. Go troll somewhere else. >>
Interesting response
Ok, i'll just come out and say it since you're getting defensive so quickly.
I think you're BS'ing us. The obverse doesn't look like the same coin in the two pictures.
Prove me wrong.
. >>
Actually, the lighting and angle are what make it seem a tad different. Look at the scratch in the * to the left of the date (almost hitting the date). Same.
Also, look at the "U" in UNUM on the upper right...the crack there. The angle is the same.
It's the same coin I am pretty sure. It just had a lot of "haze" on it...either from doctoring or time and storage.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
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<< <i>It was a Buy It Now cherrypick from Heritage. >>
Please provide the link to the Heritage BIN auction you bought this from.
Thanks
If you know how to link to non-Auction Heritage sales, let me know and I'll be happy to provide it. I originally wanted to link the original listing on their site as part of the my OP, but was unable to find an archive of the Buy It Now stuff. >>
Do you have any pics, front and back, of it before you cracked it out ?
. >>
No. It wasn't my plan to be sold a bum coin in a PCGS holder, and then have my integrity questioned here because I mentioned it. I don't know how you were raised, but my parents taught me not to speak unless I had truth to say. Go troll somewhere else. >>
Interesting response
Ok, i'll just come out and say it since you're getting defensive so quickly.
I think you're BS'ing us. The obverse doesn't look like the same coin in the two pictures.
Prove me wrong.
. >>
I don't care what you think. There are enough visual cues in the before and after full shots to confirm they're the same coin. It is the same coin, cracked from the pictured PCGS slab, unaltered by myself except for the specific steps I have said I took with it. That is the simple truth. No amount of questioning from either you or people I actually respect around here will change that reality.
If anyone else wishes to jump on the usual CU flamewagon, bring it. I will answer you, or I will not. Generally, I don't feed trolls but this whole dreary episode has me in the mood.
<< <i>My guess is that someone puttied the hell out of it. The question is: "Why would someone putty a harshly cleaned common date MS Morgan?" It does not seem that there would be much economic incentive to do so. >>
And no disincentive either. Perhaps the person who did whatever to the coin was experimenting to see what might slip through PCGS. Practice the craft on the cheap coins before moving on to the ones where doctoring like this - if it slabs - could mean major bucks.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It was a Buy It Now cherrypick from Heritage. >>
Please provide the link to the Heritage BIN auction you bought this from.
Thanks
If you know how to link to non-Auction Heritage sales, let me know and I'll be happy to provide it. I originally wanted to link the original listing on their site as part of the my OP, but was unable to find an archive of the Buy It Now stuff. >>
Do you have any pics, front and back, of it before you cracked it out ?
. >>
No. It wasn't my plan to be sold a bum coin in a PCGS holder, and then have my integrity questioned here because I mentioned it. I don't know how you were raised, but my parents taught me not to speak unless I had truth to say. Go troll somewhere else. >>
Interesting response
Ok, i'll just come out and say it since you're getting defensive so quickly.
I think you're BS'ing us. The obverse doesn't look like the same coin in the two pictures.
Prove me wrong.
. >>
Actually, the lighting and angle are what make it seem a tad different. Look at the scratch in the * to the left of the date (almost hitting the date). Same.
Also, look at the "U" in UNUM on the upper right...the crack there. The angle is the same.
It's the same coin I am pretty sure. It just had a lot of "haze" on it...either from doctoring or time and storage. >>
look at the raised line thru the denticles below the date in the first picture. not there in the second.
the raised line above the 'N' in UNUM doesn't appear to be there in the second pic.
great educational thread, thx
<< <i>uhm........its pretty blatant that it is the same coin.............anyone who thinks otherwise is uhmm............incorrect
great educational thread, thx >>
really?
you're 100% certain ?
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<< <i>uhm........its pretty blatant that it is the same coin.............anyone who thinks otherwise is uhmm............incorrect
great educational thread, thx >>
really?
you're 100% certain ? >>
I'm 99.9% certain the rev is the exact same coin, I overlayed it and everything matches perfectly. I am almost as convinced it is the same obverse. The hits line up, but what strikes me is what is missing on the before picture. There are a few nicks and die cracks that don't seem to be there in the before shot that are clear as day on the after. What I think happened is whatever they applied to the coin has filled in a few details. Look at "Liberty" - especially the TY. Looks like a thin layer of liquid was poured over the coin and filled in a small amount of details. Could explain why the die cracks blend into the surface - the surface had raised up to meet the cracks?
Very interesting post indeed. Any way to tell by the cert number when this was made - this could be a new way to get hairlines in slabs...
EDIT: Any chance it is a form of powder coating?
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
Leo
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This is a fascinating thread Dave. Thanks for posting it.
PCGS, ANACS, & NGC Certified Coins on My Website.
Surprised PCGS missed it however as it looked like it was hazed from picture one...
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>Looks like it was artificially hazed with cigar smoke or some other method to hide hairlines...
Surprised PCGS missed it however as it looked like it was hazed from picture one... >>
I'm see a little evidence in my originals, now that I'm looking more closely. My original pics are 1100px wide, so I can see details a little better than you can here. It never occurred to me to sniff the coin, and as a smoker it probably wouldn't have helped. Although the color set me off a little, it didn't look necessarily unnatural or out of the realm of normal (if advanced) Morgan toning.
Now, for a curveball, at least for those who are unfamiliar with coin photography. Here's the same coin:
Use the rim nick outside the N in UNUM as a landmark when comparing to the first "after" shot.
Oh yeah, don't forget to send the label in so PCGS can adjust the pop report
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Here is a coin that I believe was smoked (Probably a cigar). It has that boinked look as some very sharp eyes on this board noticed when I first posted her. Only under a strong halogen light (not OTT or REVEAL bulbs) and at an extreme angle could you see the cleaning lines under the toning. No I did not buy this one.
Here she is. Lines were East-West on the obverse and NW-SE on the reverse
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<< <i>Now that we can see what's underneath, the first picture looks like it has a type of "fog" over the surfaces. What could do that? >>
My guess is that someone puttied the hell out of it. The question is: "Why would someone putty a harshly cleaned common date MS Morgan?" It does not seem that there would be much economic incentive to do so. >>
Scary to think but maybe practice.
now, was that really that hard ?
<< <i>really?
you're 100% certain ? >>
Yes. From the outset. Like most everyone else.