What is the difference between Technical grade and Market grade?
AU58WALKERS
Posts: 3,562 ✭
I see the terms all the time.
would someone please explain?
would someone please explain?
"Everyday above ground is a good day"
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The less flippant answer is that grading services are (for better or worse and IMO mostly worse) evolving toward using the grade to "value" the coin rather than grade its technical state of preservation.
(technical grading). The difference between AU and low grade MS grading isn't always market grading, it's often a
difference of opinion in technical grading. Technically it's a fine line between AU and MS63 in many series.
Market grading is grading a 1908-S IH with the first 3 feathers flat as a pancake 65RD. Coins like this have been
graded to market standards, it's an accepted weak attribute of the date.
Market grading occasionally knocks a coin with great eye appeal a grade (or 2) higher. Again, the coin has been
graded on a curve compared to what the grading house normally sees in luster and eye appeal from this date.
Market grading has nothing to do with dealers, though they often capitalize on it. It's a PCGS/NGC thing, and
putting myself in the grader's shoes I can understand the process of market grading a coin.
Even if I don't agree with it
Market grading is less strict & gives special considerations to issues that are historically substandard such is coins struck on hand & steam presses which aren't fully struck and lacking luster, certian Mints that struck historically weak coins; New Orleans in the Morg series and certian D & S Mints for the Buff series for example, coins that are really MS but are technically AU due to rub on the high points of the design from cabinet or roll friction, large gold coins because they are a soft metal have large flat field that are easily banged up, etc etc.
Basically what ziggy29 <<<using the grade to "value" the coin rather than grade its technical state of preservation.>>>
In terms of imperfections such as abrasions, hairlines, bag-marks, etc., a coin deserves a (technical) grade of MS64. However, because of the great color (it is likely worth a premium and), the grading company assigns a grade of MS65 or even MS66, instead. MS64 is the "technical" grade, but if the coin is graded MS65 or MS66, that is "market grading". It occurs on a daily basis.
I'm not sure that the term can be properly applied to any other types of situations.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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The best way to explain the difference is grading on a curve (market grading) versus accurate grading by the book (technical grading). The difference between AU and low grade MS grading isn't always market grading, it's often a difference of opinion in technical grading. Technically it's a fine line between AU and MS63 in many series....Market grading has nothing to do with dealers, ... It's a PCGS/NGC thing...
That's a good way of explaining it. It's more than a AU vs 62 issue. It affects the supergrades too. It's so much a PCGS thing that they put 7 pages explaining which issues, what grades, & why they are affected by market graded in their grading book.
<< <i>However, because of the great color (it is likely worth a premium and), the grading company assigns a grade of MS65 or even MS66, instead. MS64 is the "technical" grade, but if the coin is graded MS65 or MS66, that is "market grading". It occurs on a daily basis. >>
Thanks for the explanation Mark. This "points for color" or "points for eye appeal" thing is completely wrong in my opinion. The additional added value due to eye appeal, if any, should be left up to the marketplace-a decision left up to a buyer and seller, and absolutely should not be decided in a grading room. The extra grade point(s) obviously add value, but do not accurately reflect the grade, thus creating a situation whereby coins cannot be compared by grade, and skews the market, the price guides and peoples conception of what a particular grade should look like. It really takes away from, if not completely negates the original purpose of TPGs.
I agree with all that! We pay the grading companies to GRADE our coins, not price them for us.
With a dog coin it the other way around.
<< <i>Let's take any colorfully/attractively toned coin as an example.....
In terms of imperfections such as abrasions, hairlines, bag-marks, etc., a coin deserves a (technical) grade of MS64. However, because of the great color (it is likely worth a premium and), the grading company assigns a grade of MS65 or even MS66, instead. MS64 is the "technical" grade, but if the coin is graded MS65 or MS66, that is "market grading". It occurs on a daily basis. >>
The same coin should be bought as a MS 64. This "market grade" stuff is a house of cards waiting to implode!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
then au58 coins should be selling in the price range of bid/ask for au58 NOT ms63/ms64 money.
<< <i>If market grade is the tpg's pricing grade,
then au58 coins should be selling in the price range of bid/ask for au58 NOT ms63/ms64 money. >>
But the point is that many technical AU-58 coins are being put into MS-62 and MS-63 holders because the TPGs believe they are worth 62-63 money.
Some slabs do have technical 58s coming back as 58. But the best of those are usually cracked out until they are in a 62 or 63 holder. And my experience bidding on the best AU-58s -- even when slabbed as a 58 -- usually means paying 61-62 money anyway, if not more depending on the condition rarity status of the coin/series.
In other words, the TPGs know that really nice 58s will sell for 62 money, usually, and that the very best will often sell for 63 money. So they slab them as 62s and 63s frequently. That wouldn't apply to 1884-S Morgans, for example, but it applies to many coins where a low MS isn't valued at 5-10x the price of a high AU. I understand why they do it, but I hate seeing obviously less than MS coins being slabbed as MS.
then why are MOST coins in au58 slabs selling for 62,63,etc money?
<< <i>But if nice au58s are being slabbed as 62,63,64
then why are MOST coins in au58 slabs selling for 62,63,etc money? >>
Probably because the market is being dumbed down to think ALL 58s are crackout-to-62 material. They're not.
<< <i>I continue to like seeing all the craze of the au-58's and folks chasing them for high numbers. Meanwhile I will continue to pick off those nasty lower grades.
First there was "Attack of the 50 Foot Woman"
Then there was "It Came From Space"
shortly followed by "Invasion From Mars"
But today... almost sliding under the radar screen....right under the nose of our CIA and NIA comes............................
"The Spread of the PCGS Lemmings"
starring some of our very own------- CU FORUM MEMBERS,,,,
they can be seen throwing NGC slabs in the river.............. sneaking sips of very sweet blue and pink colored liquid .....
bidding PCGS slabs through the roof....
alright I'll stop....
<< <i>then why are MOST coins in au58 slabs selling for 62,63,etc money? >>
Perhaps because everybody wants them. Perhaps because the market has been hyped they are "undervalued."
Ever notice dealers will say a series is undervalued as they go on a mission to max out every coin and all the prices?
Perhaps because most "au-58's" we see are not even au-58 and much lower.
Bottom line, why are they selling for the prices they do even if they are not true sliders? Because they can.
<< <i>Bottom line, why are they selling for the prices they do even if they are not true sliders? Because they can.
No, you nailed it, and that's from someone who's been working on an AU-58 type set.
The thing is, at one point it was less well-known that the market allowed you to get *really* nice 58s, better than most 63s in terms of eye appeal, for a fraction of the 63 price. But news travels fast in the Internet age, and pretty soon the dirty little secret was out. Everyone was assuming that 58s were "64s with a trace of rub" and bidding them up accordingly. And most of the nicest 58s were put into 62 and 63 holders by "market grading" TPGs...yet many people failed to draw the distinction between the traditionally "nicest" 58s and 58s in the dumbed-down market grading universe, and that very few of todays 58s would have a chance to upgrade, much less be a 58 in the older technical grading days.
I still really had no trouble seeing the slightest trace of wear as I learned a certain angle to just tilt the coin and it would be evident to me. I was collecting Walkers before certification. White ones too.
<< <i>Let's take any colorfully/attractively toned coin as an example.....
In terms of imperfections such as abrasions, hairlines, bag-marks, etc., a coin deserves a (technical) grade of MS64. However, because of the great color (it is likely worth a premium and), the grading company assigns a grade of MS65 or even MS66, instead. MS64 is the "technical" grade, but if the coin is graded MS65 or MS66, that is "market grading". It occurs on a daily basis. >>
Yea, and then the Technical 64 in a 65 holder is sold with an additional premium over the 65 price because of the color. If the eye appeal warrants a premium of 2 pts, thats fine, but if you're buying color, be knowledgeable.
I can quit collecting anytime I want to.....I just don't want to!
<< <i>Why *shouldn't* the wear on an Almost Uncirculated coin be readily evident?
To me a true 58 should only be evident on close examination, and perhaps by seeing luster breaks. If there's much more than a slight break in the luster, or if you can plainly see wear with the naked eye, it's probably a technical 55 at best.
Both types of grading can lead to over-graded coins.
I would suggest that there be a letter grade. And that it is not related to the "market grade"--or beauty grade--a number.
My reasons are mostly EMOTIONAL and HISTORICAL--- based on the fact our current system was devised by DR. William Sheldon
Among his many fine atrributes were--in 1924 he published work proving --based on his "body type" theories
that Negros "reached their maximum intelligence at age 12, (14 for Mexicans) and other interesting "science"
Although his publications were held back during WW11 , he gave talks suggesting that his "Cerebrotonia" body type
was most "superior" showing physical assertive behavior that "would always be expected to do well" (sound Nordic to you?). His talks were highly
viewed in NAZI Germany, indeed none other then SS Riechmaster Himmler fiancially suported work to show Sheldons and others ideas had great merit in Nepal and some of Mongolia.
When his "eugenics" theories became less fashionable (with 6 million dead afterall), he worked on coins--seemingly not contraversial---but as everyone
knows Dr, Sheldon was convicted in 1997 for stealing of 129 ANS (Clapp) coins, 65 of which were not found!!
Later review after his conviction,( by the Smithsonian), showed he had taken over 20,000 photographs, mostly
of underage college students, and that most of the young women had never consented--although being underage, they could not anyway,
After the passing of our great "Grading Founder" ---the leader for arguing an uncirculated/circulated letter grade combined or added to a number grade It was decided that---
the photos were to be put under seal at the Smithsonian , US Natural History Museum, charges of pedoplia being a mute legal point after Sheldon's
death.
January 15, 1995. They were further developed by MR David Hewett , and data showing Phd studies of combining a letter grade (age, heath, etc) with a number grade beauty Arian Ancestry etc,--to determone who was fit for slavery, or fit for death, were filmed and published by the History Channel. with support of PBS. The German woman studying these combinations was awarded her Phd.