How rare are Full step Jefferson nickels???

Newcomp103

I read someone's research that says they found FS 1 in every 20. I have a difficult time seeing FS even on ones that have been certified. I have tried different strength magnifiers, but many of them look the same, both FS and non,unless it is just ridiculously obvious. Any suggestions on how I can see them more clearly? Thanks

cladking

I use an 18x loupe for steps. It's overkill, but I prefer a little too much for this.
An 8X wide angle lens will suffice for determining which warrant a closer look.

1: 20 should apply to some of the early issues but for coins like a '66 only 1: 20
will even have a single step.

MikeInFL

<< <i>I have tried different strength magnifiers, but many of them look the same, both FS and non,unless it is just ridiculously obvious. Any suggestions on how I can see them more clearly? Thanks >>



Light them at a very acute angle -- the basic thought is to use the shadows to enhance the visibility of the steps.

Graphix

I don't know if this will help but you may want to pull out a proof set and look at it ... may help you see what your looking for/at ... if that makes sense (probably not)

FullStepJeffs

My advice for you is go out and buy a book called the Jefferson Nickel Analyst by Bernard Nagengast... the information contained within that book will help you... at least it's a ballpark to start with. Your idea that 1 out of 20 are full steps is wrong for most early to middle date coins.

Also, the next question is... what do you consider full steps? The reason I ask this question is because some people only believe 6 full step coins are full steps while most consider 5 or more steps full step coins.

Here is a link for the book: Book

I also agree with Cladking... an 18x loop shows the true full step coins from the almosts and bridged.

And to the party.

Steve

bushmaster8

And, of course, the answer to your question all depends. Do you mean the old PCGS FS standard? or

the new PCGS FS standard?

Therein lies part of your confusion. There are so many older make PCGS slabs out there that were

graded FS by the old standard, that would not be graded FS if submitted today.

So if you are trying to get a feel for what it takes, it can be very confusing!!

larrynj

bm, i've been out of things for a number of years, so can you explain the "old standards"used by pcgs? i'm quite familiar with the current standards, ie: minimum of 5 complete steps or 4 complete lines, free of nicks or bridges.


also, are you or anyone else able to explain the ngc and anacs standards now in use?
around 1998 and before, anacs counted quarter steps, a total of 20 = 5 steps, 22 = 5.50 and 24 = 6. this allowed for bridges and/or nicks.
i know ngc originally needed 6 complete steps, and quickly revised this to a minimum of 5. anyone have a feel for the timing of this?

Newcomp103

I see slabs with 5FS,6FS, etc...but did not realize that there were "old and new" standards...I would just like to be able to see the differences...I have a 1943-D PCGS MS66 that just states "FS"...it is in a current generation holder so I assume that the "new" standard is in effect...but even using a 16X, I can't really see FS plainly...(maybe I need eye surgery). Strangely enough, I can see other attributes pretty easily (Full bands on Mercury dimes, Full head on Stand Liberty Quarters,Full Bell Lines on Franklin Halves). Thanks for all of the great responses!

bushmaster8

PCGS will claim there is no old vs new, but real FS guys, well know that prior to a couple years ago, PCGS would give the FS desig. to coins with small folds, bridges, nicks, etc.

But for the last couple years, the steps have to be virtually perfect.

dorkkarl

practically every 1 i pull out of pocket change these days IS full-steps.

K S

KoinDawg

Some years full steps are very rare. 1953, for example. PCGS has only 35 1953-S FS coins.

Hoot

And of coure, this give me the opportunity to make a pitch for the Jefferson Full Step Nickel Club! We have a quarterly newsletter, encourage members to write about Jefferson nickels, yearly Club auctions, and YN activities at the ANA World's Fair of Money (summer ANA). PM me if you're interested.

Hoot

LALASD4

Sometimes even the windows are missing not to mention the steps.

cladking

<< <i>And of coure, this give me the opportunity to make a pitch for the Jefferson Full Step Nickel Club! We have a quarterly newsletter, encourage members to write about Jefferson nickels, yearly Club auctions, and YN activities at the ANA World's Fair of Money (summer ANA). PM me if you're interested.

Hoot >>



The newsletter is excellent and worth the cost of membership.

Hoot

<< <i>

<< <i>And of coure, this give me the opportunity to make a pitch for the Jefferson Full Step Nickel Club! We have a quarterly newsletter, encourage members to write about Jefferson nickels, yearly Club auctions, and YN activities at the ANA World's Fair of Money (summer ANA). PM me if you're interested.

Hoot >>



The newsletter is excellent and worth the cost of membership. >>



Hoot

CarlWohlforth

Some years are very tough. In fact I'm looking for a '56-D with 5 full steps now and am having trouble finding any. Modern coins are minted in lower relief and most of them have full steps.

In the old days NGC required 6 complete steps to get the FS designation. PCGS required the top 5 steps to be complete. More recently NGC added the 5 FS designation for coins that are close but not 6 full steps. That is helpful because there are many years where NGC has not certified any with 6 steps at all.

SEGS uses the notation that the FS Nickel club uses. You count the steps under each pillar. The 3'rd pillar is the one that is usually soft. So you might have a nickel with 5-5-4-5 steps. That would not get a designation at either PCGS or NGC but would be a desirable coin for some years.

Someone had a great diagram with the steps and pillars and so on. Does anybody have a pointer to that? It would be great if someone could post that on this thread.

WoodenJefferson

Sorry for delay in posting pictures...out doing errand

"FS" Designates Full Steps.
All Coins With A "FS" Will Show At Least 5 Full Steps On Monticello


5 steps


5 1/2 steps


6 steps


Average Strike Jefferson Nickel - Non Full Step

Note: the previous pictures are to be used for guidance only and not intended for designation in grading Full Step Jefferson Nickels, there are precise overlays to count steps in conjunction with magnification.

Hoot

<< <i>Does anybody have a pointer to that? It would be great if someone could post that on this thread. >>



Hey Carl - Courtesy of the FSNC:



Hoot

CarlWohlforth

Yup, that's the one, thanks Hoot!

WoodenJefferson

Our present day Jefferson Nickel has been around for many years, some things that have happened since 1938 to the 2005 American Bison & Ocean In View


The Mint mark has been placed in three different locations, and disappeared completely for a time.

The designers initials were added, but not until 1966, nearly two decades after the coin was introduced.

The composition was changed, with the nickel component dropped for nearly four years – mid-1942 through 1945 – from the coin most Americans call a "nickel."

Its been issued with multiple surface finishes: standard business strike, Brilliant Proof, Frosted Proof and a non-Proof Matte Finish (in the 1994-issued Jefferson Coin and Currency set and the 1997 Botanic Garden Coin and Currency set).

Felix Schlag, a German-born designer, won a national design competition to replace the Indian Head 5-cent coin in 1938. Mint officials then still followed the 25-year rule (legally, still in effect) that they interpreted as requiring design changes every 25 years.

Although Schlag won, officials rejected his winning reverse design of Monticello as viewed from an oblique angle, and replaced it with the more static head-on view still used today.

World War II brought the most significant change for the Jefferson 5-cent coin. As noted, the composition was significantly altered and the Mint mark relocated to note the alloy change. The short Wartime Alloy set is an inexpensive, popular one with collectors, totaling 12 coins.

The series is a fantastic one for die variety collectors: It has numerous repunched Mint marks, over Mint marks and doubled dies, including the 1943/2-P overdate variety. Many can be found unattributed in dealers inventories at a fraction of their real values, if one knows what to look for.

Not counting the die varieties and some of the early Proofs, there are two non-Proof Jefferson 5-cent coins that could be considered scarce, and theyre dated 1994 and 1997! A special 1994-P Jefferson 5-cent coin was struck with a non-Proof Matte Finish. It was issued as part of the Jefferson Coin and Currency set (the set comprises the Jefferson commemorative silver dollar, a Series 1976 $2 Federal Reserve note depicting Jefferson, and the special 5-cent coin).

Final mintage of the special 1994-P 5-cent coin was 167,703 pieces. It originally was slated as a limited edition of 50,000 sets but promotion brochures were issued without that restriction.

The 1997-P 5-cent coin with a non-Proof Matte Finish was included in the 1997 Botanic Garden Coin and Currency set (which also included an Uncirculated 1997 Botanic Garden silver dollar and Series 1995 $1 Federal Reserve note). The final mintage was 25,000.

All collectors should consider starting a collection of Jefferson 5-cent coins. Its a fun collection.

Where are the Mint marks?

The Jefferson 5-cent coin is unique among the current circulating coinage in that the Mint marks have appeared at three different locations on the coin. From 1938 to 1942, and 1946 to 1964, the Mint mark (if any) appeared to the right of Monticello on the reverse.

From 1942 to 1945, the Mint mark was made larger (the largest ever used on a U.S. coin) and moved to above the dome of Monticello. The P Mint mark was used for the first time for those coins struck at the Philadelphia Mint.
No Mint marks were used from 1965 to 1967 during a coinage shortage.
The Mint mark was moved to its current location – just behind Jeffersons queue – in 1968. The P-Mint mark returned in 1980.

Fast facts
Designer: Felix Schlag
Composition:
1938-1942 – 75% copper, 25% nickel
1942-1945 – 56% copper, 35% silver, 9% manganese
1946-present – 75% copper, 25% nickel
Weight: 5.00 grams
Diameter: 21.21 mm
Edge: Plain
Mint marks:
1938-1942 – Reverse, right of Monticello
1942-1945 – Reverse, above dome
1946-1964 – Reverse, right of Monticello
1964-1967 – None
1968-present – Obverse, behind Jeffersons queue

leothelyon

I swear, some of you guys could lead a blind man off a cliff! Seriously though, lots of good info already posted. But lets not forget what the rest of the coin looks like. In my book, as it is with many coin collectors...........any FS, FBL, FB, FH, FT designation should signify that the coin has been certified as being fully struck. But this has not always been the case with our most dear TGS. So before you get yourself off the wrong foot with misleading guidance, you may want to consider the overall strike of the coin before blowing too much dough on coins that have been certified based solely on one small area.

My two cents even if you're just starting out!

Leo

Hoot

<< <i>you may want to consider the overall strike of the coin before blowing too much dough on coins that have been certified based solely on one small area. >>



Absolutely. The overall strike and appearance of the coin are key. This series (as mentioned above) has many twists and turns, each of which affected the quality of the nickels produced. This is true year by year and from Mint to Mint (as is true for most series and types). Makes for a lot of fun getting to know the series well.

Hoot

morgannut2

Thank you Hoot--I was feeling bad about a Roosie in MS66 that sure looks FL, with great mint set type colors/luster, etc

What I just don't understand is how "collectors" can look down their noses at an otherwise beautiful, close to full strike, and greatly lusterous coin?

It's as if it's the same diffeence between a MS66 and a MS64 price---but the coins don't have the same big difference at all.

Coxe

Common enough to sidestep a premium for many issues. Now some in the 50s, 60s and early 70s are nearly always full ramp.

cladking

<< <i>... you may want to consider the overall strike of the coin before blowing too much dough on coins that have been certified based solely on one small area.



Leo >>





Nice strikes on cu/ ni, and cu/ ni clad cu coins are a vastly underappreciated area.

And I tend to agree that in many cases overall strike is more important than specific details.

WoodenJefferson

swear, some of you guys could lead a blind man off a cliff!
He wanted to find out how better to see steps...he's gonna see steps!

Yes, over all quality of the stike is very important, it ALL has to come together.

coinkat

Depends on the dates... I still tend to believe the grading of this series needs to progress beyond Full Steps... there are jeffs out there that fail a FS designation that are still nice and attractive and worth a premium based on the quality of the strike... we'tt get there someday

leothelyon

By the way Newcomp103, if you're still tuned in.......you can click on my Jefferson Nickels link in my post to see few nickels in all kinds of grades and steps. If you haven't done so already.

Leo