NGC has hit an all time low in my book -photos added

seateddime · October 24, 2006 12:51AM

Will post pictures of 5 Seated dimes, all in ANACS problem free holders, the first 4 in new holders.

NGC bounced the all as cleaned

1844 VG
1863 S VF
1851 O AU55
1851 O AU55
1850 AU50

all coins were nice problem free and properly graded.

NGC crossed over 0/5 of the coins. Every one of these coins was easliy a lock. 0 out of 5? This is after they took 28 days on an early bird submission. I was buring my 5 coin certificate. Better offer just throwing it out!

Anyone else think they are nuts over there?

coinguy1 · October 24, 2006 1:00AM

The thread title sounds overly harsh and dramatic, based upon the subject matter being disappointing/surprising crossover results with a sample size of only 5 coins.

<<Every one of these coins was easliy a lock.>>

When I see comments like that about the grading of a group of coins (which, in itself, is subjective in nature), I must question the objectivity of the person making the statement. Sorry.

ColonialCoinUnion · October 24, 2006 1:01AM

So you mean 'all-time low' as in 'too strict'?

Normally 'all-time low' is tossed around the boards when some overgraded POS or obviously AT'd coin is shown.

I guess this just goes to show that you really can't please everybody.

RYK · October 24, 2006 1:04AM

<< So you mean 'all-time low' as in 'too strict'?

Normally 'all-time low' is tossed around the boards when some overgraded POS or obviously AT'd coin is shown.

I guess this just goes to show that you really can't please everybody. >>

I agree completely. When I opened the thread, I expected to see an overgraded or AT POS in an NGC slab, rather than a complaint that NGC was being too tough. To that, I say, kudos for NGC.

AU58WALKERS · October 24, 2006 1:05AM

I was expecting a bunch of overgraded coins in ngc holders.

sounds like they are cleaning up their "act".

ColonialCoinUnion · October 24, 2006 1:07AM

Plus, I agree with Mark.

When someone goes 0/5 on what he belies are 5 'lock' crosses, it may suggest more about the submitter than the submittee*.

* I just made that word up, but I think it works in this context.

BillJones · October 24, 2006 1:07AM

Quite often coins end up in other than NGC or PCGS holders for a reason. I think that we see an example of that here.

numisma · October 24, 2006 1:15AM

I would love to see pictures of the coins. Sometimes ANACS coins will not cross because of prejudice. I do believe that and so do others. That's why it is the unwritten rule that you are better off to crack the coins and submit them raw. As a matter of fact, why not try that experiment; crack and submit raw. Bet you get some graded at the same or higher grade.

BobaFett72 · October 24, 2006 1:16AM

what was the reason why they didnt cross?
would entombing them in NGC plastic dramatically increase their value? Has ANACS reputation been sullied that much?
Just curious, thanks!

Leo

BillJones · October 24, 2006 1:19AM

<< what was the reason why they didnt cross?
would entombing them in NGC plastic dramatically increase their value? Has ANACS reputation been sullied that much?
Just curious, thanks!

Leo >>

Yes, NGC coins are a lot easier to sell than ANACS coins. At least that's the way is was in New England when I lived there, and here in Florida. If you have a good coin, crossing it can be well worth it.

HighRelief · October 24, 2006 1:23AM

<< NGC crossed over 0/5 of the coins. Every one of these coins was easliy a lock. 0 out of 5? This is after they took 28 days on an early bird submission. I was buring my 5 coin certificate. Better offer just throwing it out! >>

It looks like NGC is sending back a message on ANAC graded coins.

numisma · October 24, 2006 1:28AM

It looks like NGC is sending back a message on ANAC graded coins.

All coins should be graded by PCGS or NGC solely on the merits of the coin and nothing else (even if it is in an ACG holder). I think that they try to do this, but there must be a subliminal prejudice as I have seen raw coins slabbed after they failed to cross in a previous submission.

rec78 · October 24, 2006 1:32AM

Why NGC? Submit raw and try PCGS. Can you post Pics? Maybe some help available here.

DennisH · October 24, 2006 1:36AM

Funny thing about coins in ANACS "problem free" holders: On a couple of huge "cross at any grade" submissions last year to PCGS totaling over 4,000 Morgans, a good friend of mine had almost 25% of them rejected for either cleaning, altered surfaces, or other "problems".

In other words, "problem free" means different things to different grading firms.

USCGCraig · October 24, 2006 1:47AM

Really depends upon the series. Most of the NGC Barber Halves I have crossed have dropeed 1 to 3 full grades. Out of my 20 NGC crossovers, only 2 Barber Halves crossed over to PCGS and 1 actually was upgraded plus I have one DNC for a problem. As for ANACS, I see about half that cross straight over, have had 8 actually upgrade, 2 downgrade by 1 grade but have had about 20% DNC for a variety of reasons. When those ANACS coins have been cracked out, the coin is usually graded about 80% of the time. As for SEGS/ICG, I've had one cross with a 1 grade decrease and 1 DNC.

I've seen NGC gold in the AU grades cross to PCGS. I have also crossed three early commems from NGC to PCGS and had upgrades.

So it depends upon the series. If they won't cross, then crackout if you really want them graded.

Barry · October 24, 2006 3:17AM

The grading services' most important asset is their reputation or perception how they grade. For that reason, you should have sent the coins in raw.

seateddime · October 24, 2006 3:32AM

I will say this, 3 of the 5 were purchased at ANA and shown to an NGC grader who said they would cross over. A forth was purchased from a well known Seated dealer who though the coin would easily crossover. The 5th is a problem free circulated coin in lower grade I submitted just to plug a hole in my Reg. set.

Of 10 coins I have sent to NGC 2 have crossed over.

Of the 8 coins I sent to PCGS all have crossed over including 2 NGC would not.

While I found PCGS grading is very tight it is also accurate.

NGC can not erase years of putting overgraded coins in holders by rejected submission after submission.

I will send them to PCGS and bet at least 3 out 5 crossover.

09sVDB · October 24, 2006 3:34AM

I don't know. I just had a "properly graded" AU58 1861 $2 1/2 gold piece come back from NGC as an MS62.

prooflike · October 24, 2006 3:43AM

You should have enclosed a "tip."

seateddime · October 24, 2006 3:43AM

A few month ago I had an AU50, 53 tops 1841 O come back an AU58.

That coin was no 58.

It's like a box of Chocolates, you never know what you are going to get.

coinguy1 · October 24, 2006 3:51AM

<< ...Of 10 coins I have sent to NGC 2 have crossed over.

Of the 8 coins I sent to PCGS all have crossed over including 2 NGC would not.

While I found PCGS grading is very tight it is also accurate.

NGC can not erase years of putting overgraded coins in holders by rejected submission after submission. >>

<<A few month ago I had an AU50, 53 tops 1841 O come back an AU58.

That coin was no 58.

It's like a box of Chocolates, you never know what you are going to get>>

With previous results and thoughts like that, why didn't you simply crack the coins out and submit them?

seateddime · October 24, 2006 4:02AM

Mark,

That is a really good question. I am not one for all the resubmitting and cracking out, etc

I still like to think when you send coins to be graded at least 4 out of 5 should come back right.

For saying that I guess I desirve any abuse I get.

seateddime · October 24, 2006 4:03AM

but really how hard is it to grade a low grade circulated seated dime?

RedneckHB · October 24, 2006 4:08AM

I once sent 8 Matte proof Lincolns and proof IHCs to PCGS for crossover. All were NGC. Not a single one crossed.

I cracked them all and sent raw. Got 4 crosses and 4 upgrades.

The TPGs will err on the side of conservatism when they do not have an unimpeded view of the coin.

Conder101 · October 24, 2006 10:36PM

<< but really how hard is it to grade a low grade circulated seated dime? >>

Interesting comment.. Most people say that you don't have to pay too much attention to the circulated coins because basically everyone can grade them and the real importance of the services is in the Mint State grades and being able to tell them apart. But a few years back when Coin World did their little test sending the same coins to each of the major services, I noticed something. Coin World included a couple of circulated coins in with the group they sent to each service. While all the talk and discussion concentrated on the MS coins I notice that the grading of the circulated coins was all over the map. For the most part no two services graded the coins the same. I though grading circulated was supposed to be easy. If the services can't grade the circulated coins with any consistancy, what makes you think they can grade MS coins to ONE POINT with any consistacy or accuracy? Let alone have any corelation between companies.

thebeav · October 24, 2006 11:18PM

<< The TPGs will err on the side of conservatism when they do not have an unimpeded view of the coin. >>

Another, perhaps quite important, point.....

pitboss · October 24, 2006 11:38PM

I have found all three top grading services to do a good job, but if you try crossing them over without breaking them out of their slabs, you will not like the results in most cases. I like the ANACS new slabs myself and find them doing a much better job now.

keets · October 24, 2006 11:40PM

while you claim to be a quasi-expert at grading your series you also seem to lack the confidence to buy/submit raw coins, buying already holdered and sending in the holder to stay protected. my impression is that you're buying the coins at discounted prices and trying to "upgrade" the holder to sell for a profit.

TwoSides2aCoin · October 24, 2006 11:41PM

All slabs are created equal.

It's the graders who can't seem to get it together.

edit for punctuation, grammar and spelling...and I probably still messed something up.

ziggy29 · October 24, 2006 11:45PM

Seriously, though -- this is a big reason why, unless I'm buying a very expensive coin for which I need authentication, I'm done with the crack-and-resubmit game. For most of my collections I just crack out the coins and enjoy them raw in an album, anyway. I've even cracked out a 1877 IHC in an NGC EF-40 holder (my current avatar) because I was tired of seeing the empty hole in my album...

garsmith · October 24, 2006 11:48PM

I have looked though this thread I don't don't see anywhere where you are explaining what NGC did to your coins-

Did they give you lower grades than was on the ANACS holder
or where these coins body bagged, if BB'd for what reason(s)

We need a little bit more information!

relicsncoins · October 25, 2006 1:03AM

<< I have looked though this thread I don't don't see anywhere where you are explaining what NGC did to your coins-

Did they give you lower grades than was on the ANACS holder
or where these coins body bagged, if BB'd for what reason(s)

We need a little bit more information! >>

I'm guessing he checked cross at minimum grade or higher and none of them met that criteria.

JJ

lava · October 25, 2006 1:39AM

NGC may have years of overgraded coins, but so too does everyone else, including PCGS.

Personally I find the inconsistency at PCGS maddening. As an example, I send in a coin for upgrade, and it failed. So, I go out in the marketplace and bought the coin in the desired grade, and when it arrives it is clearly not as nice as the coin I already own. So I reluctantly returned the coin (I hate to return coins, and I think this may be my only return ever, because I don't like to do that to sellers, but instead of a refund I exchanged for other coins) and resubmitted the coin I had to PCGS again. Coin is rejected again. It is now in for Pres. Review. From what I can tell my coin (in ms63) is as nice or nicer than any coin in Heritage's archives for 64s.

Point being -- inconsistency is maddening.

RYK · October 25, 2006 1:46AM

<< NGC may have years of overgraded coins, but so too does everyone else, including PCGS.

Personally I find the inconsistency at PCGS maddening. As an example, I send in a coin for upgrade, and it failed. So, I go out in the marketplace and bought the coin in the desired grade, and when it arrives it is clearly not as nice as the coin I already own. So I reluctantly returned the coin (I hate to return coins, and I think this may be my only return ever, because I don't like to do that to sellers, but instead of a refund I exchanged for other coins) and resubmitted the coin I had to PCGS again. Coin is rejected again. It is now in for Pres. Review. From what I can tell my coin (in ms63) is as nice or nicer than any coin in Heritage's archives for 64s.

Point being -- inconsistency is maddening. >>

I have generally stopped submitting coins for this reason. I know how I grade the coins in my collection, and I do not need the Ike-grader at PCGS or the ASE-grader at NGC to agree with me. I do submit coins to get pedigrees added to holders for my own enjoyment.

lloydmincy · October 25, 2006 1:56AM

Wow seateddime. Haven't heard this gripe ever before.

Out of my 80 coins I have, ALL should be upgraded, and I can't figure out why NGC OR PCGS will not upgrade them!!!

seateddime · October 27, 2006 7:13AM

<< while you claim to be a quasi-expert at grading your series you also seem to lack the confidence to buy/submit raw coins, buying already holdered and sending in the holder to stay protected. my impression is that you're buying the coins at discounted prices and trying to "upgrade" the holder to sell for a profit. >>

I would not use the word expert and me in the same breath. I am no expert

roadrunner · October 27, 2006 9:53AM

NGC at times is absurbly tight and stupid on seated coinage. That's no surprise after grading moderns in high grades for 8 hours.

Seateddime's experience is very similar to a dealer friend of mine who is known to be ultra critical. He submitted a nice fresh deal of 13 seated dimes to NGC 2 months ago. Besides the very slow service, he ended up getting 2 gifts, and about 6 body bags. Frankly, he usually never gets a body bag because he won't send stuff like that in. All the circ VF-AU58 coins were gigged for cleaning.
I saw them after the fact and they were typical for circ coins in holders. Yes, they had signs of hairlines and fuzzy surfaces like 90% of what you see in holders for these grades. NGC also gifted him 2 coins in MS that should have been AU's.

On 1 all seated submission, I've had NGC upgrade 1 point on average on a submission of 6 coins that they orig beat down. A coin that graded MS65 the first time, came back MS67 the 2nd time.
Now that's absurd. Just something you have to live with. No wonder buyers want to be there when you get your fresh submissions back! One day they are grading surfaces by 1989 standards and then shift right back to 2006. Pick one or the other.
Just remember that a large number of coins today would be bagged by 1989 standards.
roadrunner

Cnitas · October 27, 2006 10:06AM

Actually, based on the photos, I would have to agree with NGC.
They all look cleaned and or dipped to me..except perhaps the last coin...it is too dark for me to tell on my monitor.

Maybe they look different in hand??

StrikeOutXXX · October 27, 2006 10:46AM

<< Actually, based on the photos, I would have to agree with NGC.
They all look cleaned and or dipped to me..except perhaps the last coin...it is too dark for me to tell on my monitor.

Maybe they look different in hand?? >>

I agree. I hate to contradict one of the more knowledgeable in this series, especially since I know very little, but I said if these were on eBay and I didn't know the seller, what would I think...

I think the 44 looks original, but I swear I see cleaning hairlines (not sure if I'm looking through plastic or not). The other 3 look wrong to me for 150+/- year old coins, especially the more circulated 1863. The 1850 is too dark to tell much of anything on my monitor too.

Just one uneducated opinion though.

MrEureka · October 27, 2006 11:08AM

based on the photos, I would have to agree with NGC.
They all look cleaned and or dipped to me

They may be, but these are circulated coins. They look within tolerance for what normally passes at the TPGs.

coinkat · October 27, 2006 11:08AM

Interesting pictures... I like the first coin and 55 seems reasonable. I am not sure about the 1844... it may not have crossed for reasons associated with the surfaces. The 1863-s looks to be in the 30-35 range and the image of the 1850 looks dark so may estimate would be merely a guess which is not helpful...

This crossing thing at times is just more trouble than it is worth.

Connecticoin · October 27, 2006 11:13AM

I think the OP should re-submit the coins to NGC raw. It would be a very interesting experiement!

Myqqy · October 27, 2006 11:22AM

Personally, if I collected that series, I wouldn't want those coins in holders.....

TwoSides2aCoin · October 27, 2006 11:24AM

<< I don't know. I just had a "properly graded" AU58 1861 $2 1/2 gold piece come back from NGC as an MS62. >>

I'd beg to differ

.
I think PCGS would beg to differ , too. Except it'll cost ya to find out

I'll tell you what. You send it in for crossover. If it crosses, I'll pay the bill. If not, I'll split it with you. We'll see if it's properly graded.

PM me !

Joe

seateddime · October 27, 2006 11:41AM

say they bagged even 4 of the 5, it is hard to imagine all 5 ANACS slabbed coins were cleaned to where NGC would slab none of them.

One of the 51 O's came from a Heritage sale where the coin was bid to over $1000. I guess we all were fooled.

lloydmincy · October 27, 2006 11:46AM

Three of those for sure look harshly cleaned, or I'm Elvis's lost son. I don't like any of them, but that's just me. No, I'm not getting a kick-back from NGC. You can spend your money submitting raw to NGC or PCGS, but it doesn't look good, (just from the pics).

prooflike · October 27, 2006 11:51AM

I agree with lloyd. from those images, three look cleaned, one probable and can't tell on the really darkly toned one.

lloydmincy · October 27, 2006 11:53AM

My question for you is: Why are you buying these ANACS slabbed classics anyway??? Wouldn't it be safe to say, the prior owner already checked out NGC and/or PCGS??? Maybe this is a lesson for you seateddime. I thought anything in ANACS, couldnt get into one of the "biggies"...

ColonialCoinUnion · October 27, 2006 12:02PM

I still don't understand this post.

The OP stated that the coins were

<< bounced as cleaned >>

, yet it appears that they were simply submitted as straight-crosses and none did.

Did NGC tell you they were cleaned?

As for the coins themselves, I tend to agree with Andy - cleaned or not they seem to be within normal tolerances at the TPGs and they all look 'slabbable' at some grade.

I would say, though, that nothing in the images suggests they are 'lock' straight-crosses at NGC or that the OP has any reason to announce that NGC has hit an all-time low.

IMO, looks like NGC got it right.

tradedollarnut · October 27, 2006 12:20PM

I find it important to remember that the major auction houses have crossover conduits at the services. Most of the 'lock' crosses have already been taken out of the system.

BigE · October 27, 2006 12:22PM

seateddime, I would just mention that maybe not submit the group all at once-----------------------bigE

NGC has hit an all time low in my book -photos added

Comments

Leave a Comment