When commenting on coins we see in auctions, on web sites, etc., what obligation do we owe to seller
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
This has come up from time to time in various threads, and I am not directing this at any one individual, but rather, at everyone, myself included.....
What obligation do we owe to sellers/owners of coins listed on Ebay, those offered my major auction firms or on dealer websites, when making comments here? We often question and discuss grades, authenticity, whether toning is natural or artificial, whether a coin is attractive or ugly, whether Ebay sellers are scammers, etc.
Our suspicions and comments are often correct, but they are often incorrect, as well. In at least some instances, we, as a group clearly can have an impact on sales or sales prices.
How careful should we be in raising questions about coins and/or their sellers?
Does it matter what our level of expertise is?
Should we express our opinions as such, or is it OK to state them as facts?
Should we have license to say whatever we feel like, as long as the coin is listed via the internet?
Where do YOU draw the line regarding what is acceptable? Please feel free to discuss from the point of view of a seller, an observer, or both.
What obligation do we owe to sellers/owners of coins listed on Ebay, those offered my major auction firms or on dealer websites, when making comments here? We often question and discuss grades, authenticity, whether toning is natural or artificial, whether a coin is attractive or ugly, whether Ebay sellers are scammers, etc.
Our suspicions and comments are often correct, but they are often incorrect, as well. In at least some instances, we, as a group clearly can have an impact on sales or sales prices.
How careful should we be in raising questions about coins and/or their sellers?
Does it matter what our level of expertise is?
Should we express our opinions as such, or is it OK to state them as facts?
Should we have license to say whatever we feel like, as long as the coin is listed via the internet?
Where do YOU draw the line regarding what is acceptable? Please feel free to discuss from the point of view of a seller, an observer, or both.
0
Comments
I have sent you a PM as to what I think
I think that there is good that can come of it, like warning that a known scammer is setting up new ids, but I am afraid that some auctions that are lambasted here were not done by the seller to rip anyone off, but rather because they believed that their item was okay.
There are some sellers that have been repeatedly abused here (dmplrainbow, and for legitamite cause, too!) yet eBay has done nothing about it.
I can think of a recently posted auction that was actually an okay coin. What if the comments here kept it from selling? We are interfereing with someone else's income, then.
It is a slippery slope, and there are many inconsistancies and gray areas.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
I belong to a collector board for clocks. You are not even permitted to make a statement about what someone has for sale or auction. It will be deleted immediately by their monitors. I think that's excessive, but they don't think so, and perhaps rightfully so, but, collectors do take it upon themselves to protect their fellow collectors, and you can't do that if you can't speak your mind.
<< <i>I think that so long as we are honest, fair, respectful, and recognize that most of what is stated is opinion (not fact), coins listed on the internet are fair game. >>
Robert, based on the above requirements, how do you think we do as a group in that regard?
<<I have sent you a PM as to what I think
Dale, if you meant today, I didn't receive it. If you meant previously, I didn't save it. Either way, please post your thoughts here if you dare?
Carefully monitored, I would bet that in some cases some of the comments could be actionable as it's never really clearly stated that it is OPINION ONLY and should be considered as such.
I would guess that the majority of comments tend to be CRITICAL of the offering and harm the seller.
Most "rips" will be kept quiet until gathered.
Lots of people love playing "cop."
I think that once a coin is offered to the public, all is fair with respect to comments provided they are presented in a respectful manner. However, as a collector I am perhaps more free to comment than a dealer.
I think everybody realizes that virtually 100% of the posts on this forum are opinon, but I do try and go out of my way to annotate my opinions with "IMHO", "I think", etc. when they could be interpreted as stating fact.
That being said, I appreciate the "bad" as well as the "good" when posting a coin for comment, however I often learn more from the "bad" than "good". So in a sense, my wants as a collector may often be at odds with the seller's -- therein lies the rub.
Take care...Mike
Just MHO.
Edited to add: I think the major damage done isn't even to individual auctions, but to reputations. When someone gets outted here as a "bad seller", they tend to get gang-blocked, which hurts a hell of a lot more in the long-term than the short-term. I think that's something to watch out for -- whether it's legally actionable or not.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
I also believe that if we don't know much about the subject we should not presume to make judgements.
Another problem is the imaging of coins themselves. Two people can come up with very different images of the same coin. I've seen this where I thought one image was attractive, while I wouldn't pay melt value for the coin based on the other image.
I will never insult a coin in front of its owner, though IMO, it would have been appropriate to do so on numerous occasions (ie., when I see a coin that can only be described as a numismatic abortion).
As RYK said, as long as we attempt to be objective and candid, ie., this coin IMO has unattractive toning, is overgraded because it is in a 3 holder, while there clearly is wear on its high points, etc., etc., I think that's fine.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I'm sure some have been falsely accused and suffered harm. I really can't remember any threads that I have read where both sides were not represented. I do remember threads where forum members have piled on; I also remember threads where forum members have gone to considerable trouble to feret out the facts and give a fair representation of them as best they could. Sometimes this was to the benefit of the seller, sometimes not.
All in all I think the forum has done a pretty good job in sorting out the fact from the fiction. jws. JMO
Do we need a disclaimer on every statement made on the Board "my opinions stated are my opinions based on my expertise in numismatics, etc". Well, maybe.
Should we have license to say whatever we want, as long as the coin is on the internet? Probably not. But there is a difference between saying "Every raw 1909-SVDB on eBay is a fake" and "I suggest you do not buy a raw SVDB from anywhere."
From a seller's standpoint, I'd say it's probably a wash. There are comparatively few buyers here vs. the eBay coin buying population. And sometimes, we publicize an auction that otherwise might have gone unnoticed by those on the Boards.
And, there are some auctions that aren't set up to rip someone off, where the seller thinks the item is OK, that are mentioned on these Forums. But, even if the seller believes the item is OK, if the item is NOT ok, then that should be pointed out. For example, a lot of times, a seller lists an 1864 large motto 2c piece as a small motto. Probably no intent to rip someone off, but the effect is the same if a buyer relies on the seller's description. I think we should first contact the seller; if that doesn't work, contact eBay, then post it here. There are some coins that are difficult to attribute and as a result are often wrong; the 1830 large letters half dollar comes to mind, as well as the 1839-O reverse of 1838-O dime and half dime. In my view, the steps should be the same: seller 1st, eBay 2nd, Forum 3rd. you can bypass the seller when you know from previous experience or feedback that this would be unsuccessful (dmplrainbow for example).
Disclaimer: All of the above is my opinion based on my experience and knowledge in numismatics.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
That's a good question.
It doesn't matter where the coin's picture is displayed. It could be: Ebay, one's web site, here etc.
There is a fine line in what are the limits of right and wrong in comments made.
If someone doesn't like the person, will they like the coin? Ditto for the reverse situation.
If someone posts a picture, they deserve honesty with a good dose of decorum and tact thrown in. One person's eye appeal can be another person's ugly.
I know my favorite series, classic silver commems, stone cold. I can make a decent comment on silver dollars and early coppers. I've seen a number of commems posted everywhere that I have to think long and hard before saying anything as well as what I can say without going negative.
Generally, when one posts a newp, they want compliments. When they post a possible purchase they may want honesty or they may want agreement via hand holding. I'll always try to bring up what I like in a coin yet if someone asks for honest comments, I will provide them, whether negative or positive.
comment on an offered coin's merits(or lack thereof). I do think posters should be very hesitant
to comment negatively, especially when the comments are based on 2nd hand info, no matter who
that info is coming from.
That said, regarding non-ebay auctions- the posts here may not impact the sale as much as one might think.
I am reminded of a post regarding a "putied" coin in a heritage auction. The coin did sell strongly,
internet bid or not. The critical poster, in my opinion, did come across as stating a fact. This "fact" was
disputed by the owner of the coin. As I said the coin did sell for strong $ and the seller was happy with the sale.
I will say that it's too bad the seller hasn't posted much in the following month, and I hope it's not
over this incident. I for one miss his posts/pics
My comments, which are strictly my opinion, are related to auction house coin condition opinions and
not the majority of ebay sales posts.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
-Mark Twain
I've often thought some of the things posted here could bring a tort of disparagement suit.
Ray
<<I bought a coin from dmplrainbow that was listed as 1864 proof 2 cent piece, sent it to pcgs, came back labled as ms and, of course, cleaned =( Bought like 5 coins total from him, pcgs marked 4 cleaned, one envir. dmg.>>
I hope if you still had the opportunity, that you left appropriate feedback on Ebay.
To the dismay of many ebay bashers, I have come to the defense of the accused on many occasions. Many times they turned out to indeed be scammers but this is America and I wasn't willing to convict them without at least looking at the facts. On other occasions they have turned out to be innocent. Sometimes we never find out.
I think we jump to conclusions way too fast here and we only backpeddle if it turns out to be a "respected forum member" selling the coin...
I think that if we ask questions like, "I wonder about this one. Does the date look funny to anybody else?" is fine. But instead we get comments like "Definitely AT" or "mint mark obviously removed" that sometimes turn out to be flawed. We call the guys scammers and talk like crap about the seller in a dramatic post before we have facts to support it.
I try to keep people honest by calling them out and asking for facts to support their accusations and it doesn't make me popular with some members but I get complimentary PMs from others. (notice the interesting choice of communication format). I'm not here to win a popularity contest so I'm ok with that, besides, I'm too stubborn to change.
Thanks for a well worded thread starter to bring awareness to this problem,
Jerry
<< <i>I bought a coin from dmplrainbow that was listed as 1864 proof 2 cent piece, sent it to pcgs, came back labled as ms and, of course, cleaned =( Bought like 5 coins total from him, pcgs marked 4 cleaned, one envir. dmg. >>
Sometimes it's hard to feel sympathy ... if you wanted high quality coins in PCGS slabs, why did you buy uncertified coins sight unseen (from a seller who has frequently been criticized on these boards, but that's beside the point) ????? Why would anyone buy a whole handful of such coins ???? Next time buy PCGS certified proof two centers, and make sure you look at them first !!!
Mark, we should always feel free to speak our minds, particularly if it is constructive and helpful to the community. If we are being critical of another individual, we should be careful to have our facts correct, and make every effort to be as polite and politic as possible. (Of course, I was neither in the previous paragraph LOL.)
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
<< <i>I think it's a very good set of questions. Being a relative new collector I myself would not
comment on an offered coin's merits(or lack thereof). I do think posters should be very hesitant
to comment negatively, especially when the comments are based on 2nd hand info, no matter who
that info is coming from.
That said, regarding non-ebay auctions- the posts here may not impact the sale as much as one might think.
I am reminded of a post regarding a "putied" coin in a heritage auction. The coin did sell strongly,
internet bid or not. The critical poster, in my opinion, did come across as stating a fact. This "fact" was
disputed by the owner of the coin. As I said the coin did sell for strong $ and the seller was happy with the sale.
I will say that it's too bad the seller hasn't posted much in the following month, and I hope it's not
over this incident. I for one miss his posts/pics
My comments, which are strictly my opinion, are related to auction house coin condition opinions and
not the majority of ebay sales posts. >>
KC,
I think that you partially misinterpreted the story of the puttied gold coin at auction. The forum member was a former owner of the coin, not the seller, and I was relaying the conversation that I had about the coin regarding it being puttied. That is, DW told me that the coin was puttied, and that was his opinion, and it was in conflict with the opinion of CharlotteDude. Whether the coin has been altered is a matter of opinion, but it either has been or it has not been, and it is up to everyone to decide the matter for themselves. I respect CharlotteDude very much, but I respectfully disagreed, we communicated privately, and we were both cool with the lack of agreement. He comes and goes here, and I expect that we will see him back here soon enough.
I think that we are not enough of an influence on the coin market to negatively affect a public sale, but with "happy talk", there is no doubt that we can increase the interest in a coin offered publicly, especially on ebay, and get the price jacked up (IMO, of course
from that thread. I don't think many new collectors really realize how subjective
the hobby really is and there's alot to be learned from just about all the posts.
Chris
<< <i>I think that so long as we are honest, fair, respectful, and recognize that most of what is stated is opinion (not fact), coins listed on the internet are fair game. >>
What he said...
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
AS far as ebay--I generlly don't bother with the many petty thieves--many members here exceptedf coarse.
---- I make it a point to never ever post or comment on any AT/NT type coin arguement----Unless t's a really
good one over 300 posts!
FORUM
3. a. an assembly or program for the discussion of public matters, b. an opportunity for open discussion
From ancient Rome.
I have commented from time to time about really obvious eBay auction threads who's intent is to fraudulently deceive to attain $$$. If you've ever been burned by a seller on e-bay you would have a different perspective about a seller who appears to be shady. 99% of my e-bay transactions (439) have been positive is every respect. Sometimes e-bay is comical in nature...some of the listing just make you giggle, others need to be just plain halted! If you report someone for gross misrepresentation, e-bay will send you a friendly reminder that it's the buyers helpful reporting that helps them to stop fraudulent listings. It's a two way street...ppl that nothing to hide on e-bay do not use superlative descriptions, just good accurate photos of the item you will receive.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
MrEureka
Master Collector
Posts: 9154
Joined: Jan 2003
Monday October 23, 2006 5:46 PM (NEW!)
I don't think any of us owe anything to anyone. I do, however, believe that every post should be composed under the assumption that the target will read the post, and may take legal action if there is cause.
<< <i>Mark,
To the dismay of many ebay bashers, I have come to the defense of the accused on many occasions. Many times they turned out to indeed be scammers but this is America and I wasn't willing to convict them without at least looking at the facts. On other occasions they have turned out to be innocent. Sometimes we never find out.
I think we jump to conclusions way too fast here and we only backpeddle if it turns out to be a "respected forum member" selling the coin...
I think that if we ask questions like, "I wonder about this one. Does the date look funny to anybody else?" is fine. But instead we get comments like "Definitely AT" or "mint mark obviously removed" that sometimes turn out to be flawed. We call the guys scammers and talk like crap about the seller in a dramatic post before we have facts to support it.
I try to keep people honest by calling them out and asking for facts to support their accusations and it doesn't make me popular with some members but I get complimentary PMs from others. (notice the interesting choice of communication format). I'm not here to win a popularity contest so I'm ok with that, besides, I'm too stubborn to change.
Thanks for a well worded thread starter to bring awareness to this problem,
Jerry >>
Jerry, I very much appreciate and respect your approach, and know, full well, that you sometimes receive considerable flack for it.
<<I don't think any of us owe anything to anyone. I do, however, believe that every post should be composed under the assumption that the target will read the post, and may take legal action if there is cause.>>
Andy, I disagree. I feel that, at the very least, we have a duty to try to be fair in our comments and assessments of others' coins.
<< <i>I think that so long as we are honest, fair, respectful, and recognize that most of what is stated is opinion (not fact), coins listed on the internet are fair game. >>
You saved me some typing.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Not to have a hidden agenda.
How careful should we be in raising questions about coins and/or their sellers?
Not so careful as to avoid asking a ?? but not careless mudslinging either. In the greattoning thread the picture should have been linked questioning that individual coin, not linking all the guys auctions & making a blanket statement that he specialized in selling AT junk for moon money.
Does it matter what our level of expertise is?
No. Lesser knowledgeable people can read reference books and make well-informed replies.
Should we express our opinions as such, or is it OK to state them as facts?
Should state opinions as such, unless you have the facts to support your position. Like in the gold coin with removed mintmark thread, the op should have checked his diagnostics on date location then he would have known the mm was not removed and that it never actually had a mm. He incorrectly stated his opinion as fact.
Should we have license to say whatever we feel like, as long as the coin is listed via the internet?
No. The internet is not anonymous. You can be held accountable for what you say, whether it's fact or fiction.
Where do YOU draw the line regarding what is acceptable? Please feel free to discuss from the point of view of a seller, an observer, or both.
Man that's a tough one. Sometimes a seller needs to have a spit stuck up his arse, placed on a rotisserie and slowly roasted over an open flame. Sometimes a seller is owed a huge apology. Knowing what is appropriate for the occasion is the hard part, sometimes it’s just a matter of opinion so refer back to #1