Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. First nine stars are mostly flat, while last four stars are sharp. (Obverse shared with O-107.)
Reverse: Small tine extends to the right serif from right serif of A in STATES. 50 is larger than most in 1836. Most stripes extend to far upwards. Lines 2 & 3 of stripe 5 extend down through feathers, and to upper right claw. I is far left of T.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Here is another missing die STATE for the 1836 Thread.
This is an 1836 O-106a, R3 with all of its neat, sexy die cracks. (If I call a coin's die crack "sexy," does this mean that I am kinky or just "odd?")
My coin is not the prettiest because of the multiple circulation tics and marks on the obverse. ...but I like the coin because of the die cracks. Perhaps, some day, I will ferret the coin from my collection by replacing it with an upgrade. I am not sure.
First lets discuss the obverse: The obverse surface of the O-106a is rather granular. There is a pronounced roughness around the last four stars and the date. I am not sure if you will see this in my photo.
This the Late Die State of this die marriage. The O/P book lists both die cracks. ...but the second die crack on my coin extends beyond the diagnostic location as described in the book. Does this mean that the O/P book is incorrect? No. ...because, per Don Parsley to me directly, the scope of the book was to describe the earliest and the LATEST die states of each die marriage AS KNOWN to the authors when the book was written. Therefore, my coin is an example of a Very Late Die State of the coin struck just before the cracked die was withdrawn from usage. Evidently Al and Don had not seen an example of this VLDS when their book was written.
(1) [Red Arrows] The is a die break from the rim to the center arrow point then through the upper arrowhead, across the right wing and the field to the scroll. On my coin you will see the die lumps at the die break around the arrowheads and at the lower right of the tip of the right wing.
(2) [Green Arrows] The O/P book decribes that on LDS coins there is an additional die crack from the right wing to the bottom of the C in AMERICA. On my coin this die crack crosses thru the bottom of the C then progresses to the top of the 2nd A in AMERICA and then continues to the rim of the coin.
Another missing die STATE from our thread is the 1836 O-113a, R3.
This scarce R3 coin is a little tougher to find than the O-113, R2 die state.
Again, this is one of those Busties with neat die cracks all over the place.
On the obverse the "normal" O-113a has two primary die cracks. One starting just below star 13 going up to star 11 and then turning across the portrait thru the lower points of star 6 and ending at the rim. Another die crack crosses drapery at the end of the bust.
On the reverse there is a very fine die crack that joins TATES at the top and then curves across the base of OF, across the corner of the scroll and to the right wing.
Very Late Die states, like the one I have pictured, have two additional die cracks. One from rim across star 11 to join the first long die crack. Another at the base of 18.
Photos of my 1836 O-113a, R3: (Note that the lines to the left of star 12 and another above the date are faint hairline scratches. they are not a die cracks.)
Here's another missing die STATE: the 1836 O-101a, R1.
This is identical to the O-101 except there is a die crack on the reverse running from the edge at the left wing tip across the olive leaves to the eagle's tail feathers.
Here's another look at the 1836 O-121, R5+. As refined by the Bust Half Nut Club approximately 31 to 46 specimens are thought to exist. The 4th Edition of the O/P book says R4, this is a major error.
Mozin and Slumlord98 discussed this die marriage on page 2 of this Thread.
As Slumlord98 reminds us, there is only one Bustie die marriage that is misattributed more than the 1836 O-121. This is the 1830 O-114.
A confession: I, myself, once paid big bucks sight unseen for an AU-50 1836 O-121. I had a detailed description of the coin's condition and toning, but was not concerned about the lack of a photo/scan. This was because this was a four-party tier sale and I was working with people who specialized in Busties. i.e., one Bustie expert sold the coin to another Bustie expert who in turn sold the coin to a dealer who specializes in Busties and this dealer sold the coin to me. I received the coin and discovered that the coin had been misattributed. It turned out to be the O-105, R4. (...but their decriptions of the coin's condition and toning was correct!)
Fortunately about the same time I received my refund another 1836 O-121 came up for sale and I grabbed it. (This time I made sure I saw photos of the coin before I paid for it.) They do not go on the market too often.
Mozin discussed and photographed the key diagonostics of his 1836 O-121. If your mind is like my mind, it doesn't hurt to go over the diagnostics again. Let's do it.
Also, remember that the O/P book gives you the star to dentil relationships on the coin, but what do you do if you are trying to attribute a coin where the dentils are worn off or the coin has been struck with a worn die showing weak or non-existent dentils?
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse Die 16. This was the first of two uses of the die. The die was next used to strike the O-120, R4.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse Die D. This was the second and last use of this die. It was first used to strike the O-105, R4.
First, key identifiers of the obverse of the die marriage - ignoring the star to dentil relationships, as if the coin has worn or missing dentils. The O-120 and the O-121 share these obverse identifiers:
(1) Star 8 is recut at the two upper points, there is a gap in the dentils between star 8 & star 9, and the inner point of star 9 is pointed:
(2) In the date 83 is closer than 18 or 36. Remains of a bar and dot may show weakly to the right of the 6, and MOST IMPORTANTLY if you picture a straight line thru the points of star 12 to the date the line will go above the 6 and pass through the bottom of the 8: (On the O-105 the line will pass through the 6 towards the bottom of the 3.)
The key identifiers of the reverse of this die marriage are shared with the O-105:
(1) The lower tail feather penetrates the upper olive branch. (Be careful not to confuse this with the O-106 which has a thinner lower tail feather that also penentrates the upper olive branch.):
(2) There may be corrugated raised bars left of the 5 of 50 C. These are present on most O-105's - the O/P book states there is little or no evidence of these bars on EDS O-105's. On LDS O-105's they become weak. On the O-121's they will either be weak or absent. (With the aid of a loupe they can be barely seen at the edge of the milling on my coin.)
(3) The 5 has a broad, sharply curved and pointed top.
Just realized I never got my 1836 posted here. Not as purty as some of my others with the dirt on her face:
I've got a serious case of the blurries this morning, so I can't even begin to consider what variety this might be. Anyone?
Exclusively collecting Capped Bust Halves in VF to AU, especially rarity 3 and up. Joe G. Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
When your eyes get un-blurry, would you consider an 1836 O-117, R3?
Regards,
Ed >>
Cool. So I have a DM that's hasn't been posted by anyone in a while (last was November 2006). Thanks for your input, Ed. Oh, and it's my brain that had the blurries, not just my eyes. Difficulty sleeping last night, so major "zombie" mode today. Slowly getting better...
Exclusively collecting Capped Bust Halves in VF to AU, especially rarity 3 and up. Joe G. Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
Here's another missing die STATE: The 1836 O-104a, R3.
This is identical to the 1836 O-104 except on the O-104a there is a die crack on the reverse that forms a large loop around the inner design of this die marriage.
It has been over a month since the last posting to this thread.
Here is the last missing die marriage: The 1836 O-105, R4-
The obverse of this very scarce die marriage was struck using Obversie Die 3. This was the only use of this die.
The reverse was struck using Reverse Die D. This was the first of two uses of this die. The die was later used to strike the rare 1836 O-121, R5+.
Quick indentifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) There is an obvious opening in the milling just left of the peak of the cap. (red arrow) (2) The small 3 is nearly closed at both the top and the bottom. (3) On the reverse - just like on the rare O-121 - there is an extended lower tail feather through the olive stem. (red arrow) (4) Also on the reverse there are corrugated raised areas left of the 5 of 50 C. These corrugated areas become very weak on Late Die States. (green arrow)
For other differences between the O-105, R4- and the O-121, R5+ refer to presentations earlier in this thread.
Thank you for your comments on my 1836's and the Dansco pages.
You asked that I post the coins' reverses as well as the obverses.
As of this exact moment I have only scanned the reverses of one of the 1812 Dansco pages. I started to scan the all of the pages with the reverses, but after doing this one 1812 page, I decided to back off and not to do any more.
The logic I was used was as follows:
(1) The reverses are not labeled as to date and Overton number. (2) Because the reverses are struck (in theory) 180 degrees in rotation from the obverses, if I post the reverses "right side up" then the order of the coins on the page changes. For example, if 18xx O-101's obverse is seen "right side up" in the UPPER left portal, then its reverse seen "right side up" will be now in the LOWER left portal. (I could solve the "in order problem" by scanning the reverses "upside down," but it really scrambles my brain when I try to analyse and/or look at a reverse "upside down.")
This is easy to remember with the coins in the corners of ONE Dansco page, but what happens when you see 4 Dansco pages of 1827 reverses and you ask yourself "Now where did Ed say I would find the reverse of that 1827 O-1xx?"
I suppose I could solve (some of) this problem by posting one page of obverses "right side up" followed below it with the reverse page "right side up." Let me think about it. (If I went back and posted the reverses of the obverses already posted, then it would not make any sense unless I re-posted the obverses again. Do we really need to do this?)
I don't know.
Let me ask the other readers of these threads.
Is there an opinon or hue and cry either way? Are the obverses seen on the Dansco pages good enough? ...after all each, die marriage/die state as already been posted individually.
In the meantime, go to the 1812 thread - shortly I will post the 1812 Dansco page that I have not yet posted. It will be followed by the with the reverses of the coins seen on that page.
Hi Ed, I would say the only way to do the reverses is in sequence with the obverses, 1 page at a time. (You are definitely correct about looking at upside down reverses!!) Since no one else has chimed in, I guess I must be the only one interested ?? Your images are definitely nice enough to use as an online reference. I'd love to see a well laid out "Overton" for the computer, as my book pages are getting pretty worn out!! Thanks again for all of your contributions to these boards, and for showing off so many of your nice CBH's. I really enjoy all the die state pictures with the little arrows. (Everytime I see one, I have to drag my coins out to look for all the little subtleties)
Can someone please help attribute this 1836 bust I picked up a while back? I think it is O105 from the pictures above but I am usually wrong. My pictures are not the best but please give your opinion and thoughts on the coin.
THANKS, ED
ED .....................................................
Welcome to our CU Capped Bust Half Dollar series. The gap in the dentils above the peak of the cap, and the strong vertical bars left of 50 C, confirm that your marriage is O-105. It is currently considered R4- by the Bust Half Nut Club.
Always nice to start with other than a common marriage.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Thanks, SomeGuyFromMichigan and mozin. I though it was the O-105 but just wanted to be sure. Any one want to give an opinion as to grade as I am also trying to learn how to grade these things too.
ED .....................................................
Comments
Edgar
Some diagnostics for Beaded Border 1836 O-106 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. First nine stars are mostly flat, while last four stars are sharp. (Obverse shared with O-107.)
Reverse: Small tine extends to the right serif from right serif of A in STATES. 50 is larger than most in 1836. Most stripes extend to far upwards. Lines 2 & 3 of stripe 5 extend down through feathers, and to upper right claw. I is far left of T.
This is an 1836 O-106a, R3 with all of its neat, sexy die cracks. (If I call a coin's die crack "sexy," does this mean that I am kinky or just "odd?")
My coin is not the prettiest because of the multiple circulation tics and marks on the obverse. ...but I like the coin because of the die cracks. Perhaps, some day, I will ferret the coin from my collection by replacing it with an upgrade. I am not sure.
First lets discuss the obverse: The obverse surface of the O-106a is rather granular. There is a pronounced roughness around the last four stars and the date. I am not sure if you will see this in my photo.
This the Late Die State of this die marriage. The O/P book lists both die cracks. ...but the second die crack on my coin extends beyond the diagnostic location as described in the book. Does this mean that the O/P book is incorrect? No. ...because, per Don Parsley to me directly, the scope of the book was to describe the earliest and the LATEST die states of each die marriage AS KNOWN to the authors when the book was written. Therefore, my coin is an example of a Very Late Die State of the coin struck just before the cracked die was withdrawn from usage. Evidently Al and Don had not seen an example of this VLDS when their book was written.
(1) [Red Arrows] The is a die break from the rim to the center arrow point then through the upper arrowhead, across the right wing and the field to the scroll. On my coin you will see the die lumps at the die break around the arrowheads and at the lower right of the tip of the right wing.
(2) [Green Arrows] The O/P book decribes that on LDS coins there is an additional die crack from the right wing to the bottom of the C in AMERICA. On my coin this die crack crosses thru the bottom of the C then progresses to the top of the 2nd A in AMERICA and then continues to the rim of the coin.
Photos of my 1836 O-106a, R3:
This scarce R3 coin is a little tougher to find than the O-113, R2 die state.
Again, this is one of those Busties with neat die cracks all over the place.
On the obverse the "normal" O-113a has two primary die cracks. One starting just below star 13 going up to star 11 and then turning across the portrait thru the lower points of star 6 and ending at the rim. Another die crack crosses drapery at the end of the bust.
On the reverse there is a very fine die crack that joins TATES at the top and then curves across the base of OF, across the corner of the scroll and to the right wing.
Very Late Die states, like the one I have pictured, have two additional die cracks. One from rim across star 11 to join the first long die crack. Another at the base of 18.
Photos of my 1836 O-113a, R3: (Note that the lines to the left of star 12 and another above the date are faint hairline scratches. they are not a die cracks.)
This is identical to the O-101 except there is a die crack on the reverse running from the edge at the left wing tip across the olive leaves to the eagle's tail feathers.
Photos of my 1836 O-101a, R1:
Mozin and Slumlord98 discussed this die marriage on page 2 of this Thread.
As Slumlord98 reminds us, there is only one Bustie die marriage that is misattributed more than the 1836 O-121. This is the 1830 O-114.
A confession: I, myself, once paid big bucks sight unseen for an AU-50 1836 O-121. I had a detailed description of the coin's condition and toning, but was not concerned about the lack of a photo/scan. This was because this was a four-party tier sale and I was working with people who specialized in Busties. i.e., one Bustie expert sold the coin to another Bustie expert who in turn sold the coin to a dealer who specializes in Busties and this dealer sold the coin to me. I received the coin and discovered that the coin had been misattributed. It turned out to be the O-105, R4. (...but their decriptions of the coin's condition and toning was correct!)
Fortunately about the same time I received my refund another 1836 O-121 came up for sale and I grabbed it. (This time I made sure I saw photos of the coin before I paid for it.) They do not go on the market too often.
Mozin discussed and photographed the key diagonostics of his 1836 O-121. If your mind is like my mind, it doesn't hurt to go over the diagnostics again. Let's do it.
Also, remember that the O/P book gives you the star to dentil relationships on the coin, but what do you do if you are trying to attribute a coin where the dentils are worn off or the coin has been struck with a worn die showing weak or non-existent dentils?
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse Die 16. This was the first of two uses of the die. The die was next used to strike the O-120, R4.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse Die D. This was the second and last use of this die. It was first used to strike the O-105, R4.
First, key identifiers of the obverse of the die marriage - ignoring the star to dentil relationships, as if the coin has worn or missing dentils. The O-120 and the O-121 share these obverse identifiers:
(1) Star 8 is recut at the two upper points, there is a gap in the dentils between star 8 & star 9, and the inner point of star 9 is pointed:
(2) In the date 83 is closer than 18 or 36. Remains of a bar and dot may show weakly to the right of the 6, and MOST IMPORTANTLY if you picture a straight line thru the points of star 12 to the date the line will go above the 6 and pass through the bottom of the 8: (On the O-105 the line will pass through the 6 towards the bottom of the 3.)
The key identifiers of the reverse of this die marriage are shared with the O-105:
(1) The lower tail feather penetrates the upper olive branch. (Be careful not to confuse this with the O-106 which has a thinner lower tail feather that also penentrates the upper olive branch.):
(2) There may be corrugated raised bars left of the 5 of 50 C. These are present on most O-105's - the O/P book states there is little or no evidence of these bars on EDS O-105's. On LDS O-105's they become weak. On the O-121's they will either be weak or absent. (With the aid of a loupe they can be barely seen at the edge of the milling on my coin.)
(3) The 5 has a broad, sharply curved and pointed top.
Photos of my 1836 O-121, R5+:
This is the only reverse in the Lettered Edge series that has a raised edge with beaded segments.
The beaded segments can be clearly seen in the photo. (Albeit struck slightly off center)
Photos of my 1836 O-106, R1:
I've got a serious case of the blurries this morning, so I can't even begin to consider what variety this might be. Anyone?
Joe G.
Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
When your eyes get un-blurry, would you consider an 1836 O-117, R3?
Regards,
Ed
<< <i>jobiwan115:
When your eyes get un-blurry, would you consider an 1836 O-117, R3?
Regards,
Ed >>
Cool. So I have a DM that's hasn't been posted by anyone in a while (last was November 2006). Thanks for your input, Ed. Oh, and it's my brain that had the blurries, not just my eyes. Difficulty sleeping last night, so major "zombie" mode today. Slowly getting better...
Joe G.
Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
This is identical to the 1836 O-104 except on the O-104a there is a die crack on the reverse that forms a large loop around the inner design of this die marriage.
Photos of my 1836 O-104a, R3:
Here is the last missing die marriage: The 1836 O-105, R4-
The obverse of this very scarce die marriage was struck using Obversie Die 3. This was the only use of this die.
The reverse was struck using Reverse Die D. This was the first of two uses of this die. The die was later used to strike the rare 1836 O-121, R5+.
Quick indentifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) There is an obvious opening in the milling just left of the peak of the cap. (red arrow)
(2) The small 3 is nearly closed at both the top and the bottom.
(3) On the reverse - just like on the rare O-121 - there is an extended lower tail feather through the olive stem. (red arrow)
(4) Also on the reverse there are corrugated raised areas left of the 5 of 50 C. These corrugated areas become very weak on Late Die States. (green arrow)
For other differences between the O-105, R4- and the O-121, R5+ refer to presentations earlier in this thread.
Photos of the 1836, O-105, R4-:
Now that all die marriages and die states are represented on this thread, here are the coins in numerical order on these Dansco pages:
Can we see the other sides of your Dansco pages?
These pics make a great "quick on-line reference" for comparing/attributing.
(The "easy stuff" for attributing this year is mostly on the reverses)
thx, GAB
Thank you for your comments on my 1836's and the Dansco pages.
You asked that I post the coins' reverses as well as the obverses.
As of this exact moment I have only scanned the reverses of one of the 1812 Dansco pages. I started to scan the all of the pages with the reverses, but after doing this one 1812 page, I decided to back off and not to do any more.
The logic I was used was as follows:
(1) The reverses are not labeled as to date and Overton number.
(2) Because the reverses are struck (in theory) 180 degrees in rotation from the obverses, if I post the reverses "right side up" then the order of the coins on the page changes. For example, if 18xx O-101's obverse is seen "right side up" in the UPPER left portal, then its reverse seen "right side up" will be now in the LOWER left portal. (I could solve the "in order problem" by scanning the reverses "upside down," but it really scrambles my brain when I try to analyse and/or look at a reverse "upside down.")
This is easy to remember with the coins in the corners of ONE Dansco page, but what happens when you see 4 Dansco pages of 1827 reverses and you ask yourself "Now where did Ed say I would find the reverse of that 1827 O-1xx?"
I suppose I could solve (some of) this problem by posting one page of obverses "right side up" followed below it with the reverse page "right side up." Let me think about it. (If I went back and posted the reverses of the obverses already posted, then it would not make any sense unless I re-posted the obverses again. Do we really need to do this?)
I don't know.
Let me ask the other readers of these threads.
Is there an opinon or hue and cry either way? Are the obverses seen on the Dansco pages good enough? ...after all each, die marriage/die state as already been posted individually.
In the meantime, go to the 1812 thread - shortly I will post the 1812 Dansco page that I have not yet posted. It will be followed by the with the reverses of the coins seen on that page.
Regards,
Ed R.
Well-struck 1836 O-108a - well, maybe a little flat on the left wing.
Slightly hairlined (or is this on the plastic and/or scanner glass?), but this is really a tough die marriage to get your hands on.
Great addition to your collection.
Ed R.
I would say the only way to do the reverses is in sequence with the obverses,
1 page at a time. (You are definitely correct about looking at upside down reverses!!)
Since no one else has chimed in, I guess I must be the only one interested ??
Your images are definitely nice enough to use as an online reference. I'd love to
see a well laid out "Overton" for the computer, as my book pages are getting pretty
worn out!!
Thanks again for all of your contributions to these boards, and for showing off so many
of your nice CBH's. I really enjoy all the die state pictures with the little arrows.
(Everytime I see one, I have to drag my coins out to look for all the little subtleties)
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
THANKS, ED
.....................................................
Yes it is indeed the O-105.
The verticle bars to the left of 50 C. on the reverse ID this marriage.
R-4- rating.
Welcome to our CU Capped Bust Half Dollar series. The gap in the dentils above the peak of the cap, and the strong vertical bars left of 50 C, confirm that your marriage is O-105. It is currently considered R4- by the Bust Half Nut Club.
Always nice to start with other than a common marriage.
.....................................................
It looks like you have a nice VFine, to much wear in the hair for XF.
1836 Capped Bust Half Dollar
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Very nice looking O-120.
I don't know how I missed this post back in January??
Here is one of my O-120's for comparison:
Lance.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>GAB, your pictures are gone. >>
They're from 2009!
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
this one is an O107 according to the label.
1836 O-108 (1836/1336)
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com