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1836 is first informative picture thread covering Capped Bust Half series. Join the fun.

mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
This is the first in a series of informative picture threads covering the lettered edge Capped Bust Half Dollars from 1807-36 in reverse year order, now starting at 1836. 1835 starts Thursday. 1834 starts Sunday, and this pattern continues on down.

General guidelines:

1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members.

2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.

3. To begin this series, I would like to start the first three threads myself, and then open it up for anyone to open threads as the next year start times come up. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.

To start the series with the year 1836:

There are 17 obverses and 19 reverses, to make 23 different marriages for 1836, including the O-121 R5+.

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image
image

Some diagnostics for 1836 O-113 R2:

imageimage


Obverse: Liberty's clasp is doubled, and first four stars (On left starting at bottom going clockwise) show recutting. Only other 1836 with doubled clasp is O-108, but it is different.

Reverse: I is under AT just a little closer to T. Curved top 5 is rotated ccw and is higher than 0. There is a tiny centering dot between crossbars 4 and 5 at left.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have fun showing us your 1836 lettered edge Capped Bust Half Dollars! Remember, it is perfectly acceptable to show pictures without any comments.

Updated link to entire Capped Bust Half Dollar Series
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
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Comments

  • Here's my 1836 O-108a, it's an R 2.
    Basic diagnostics are 8 punched over 3. Die crack under date and through stars on right. Broken arrow under talon.

    imageimage

    8 punched over 3, you can also see the die crack under the date

    image

    broken arrow under talon

    image

    I've only been able to do this because the large true view photo is so detailed
    the die crack is so fine that the whole thing doesn't show up in the photo, so I won't post that specifically.


    edited to add:
    I was looking back at this thread and saw Mozin's clasp, so here's the clasp on the 108
    image
  • Great idea! I am really looking forward to seeing this plan unvail! I have an 1836, but I cannot tell you the Overton number on it. Thanks for starting this!
  • goose3goose3 Posts: 11,471 ✭✭✭
    image

    I'll let someone else describe it. I bought it because it's a Key and it's cool looking. Estimated mintage 1200.
  • ldhairldhair Posts: 7,111 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What a great idea for a thread.
    I would love to know about this one.
    image
    image
    Thanks.
    Larry

  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am going to love this thread.

    THANKS MOZINimage

    Let me throw up this marriage and I can comment later, when I get some free time, on a few of the coins posted so far.

    Here is an example of the 1836 O-115 R3.
    It exhibits Obv 11 with Rev M
    Some of the main diagnistics of this marriage are:
    Obverse- Stars 2, 5 and 12 show recutting and the 8 is cut at the top
    Reverse- Right sides of the D and E are in line, the I in AMERICA is recut at the base
    image
    image
    image
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • Idhair, first, I want to say that your 1836 is a beautiful coin.
    It is Overton 110, a rarity 1.
    The seventh star has a thick tine rising from the upper outer point
    The olive stem is recut and the end of it is over the left half of the "C"

    copied from Peterson:
    image


    I accidentally copied the reverse for 109 rather than 110, but in 110, which yours is, the end of the olive stem is over the left half of the "C", rather than where it is in this picture.

    The photo of the star is for the O-110.

    Mike
  • LeianaLeiana Posts: 4,349
    Goose3's Reeded Edge Half is listed in the Judd book of Patterns because that coin is traditionally collected along with patterns, even though it is a regular issue.

    The Judd number is J-57 and the book gives it an R-2, meaning 501-1,250 pieces are known.

    An interesting fact about this coin is that the steam press was first introduced in 1836 and these were the first half dollars struck on it. The Steam Press allowed for more mathematically uniform coins that were harder to counterfeit.

    The reverse design was changed in 1838 to say 'HALF DOL." rather than '50 CENTS' to match the other denominations.

    I do not know the Overton number.

    -Amanda
    image

    I'm a YN working on a type set!

    My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!

    Proud member of the CUFYNA
  • ldhairldhair Posts: 7,111 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks Mike
    Lots of years in a Dansco sure helped it's color.
    Larry

  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭


    << <i>image >>


    This is a nice XF O-101 R1.

    Diagnostics:

    Obverse: Small tine or spur attached to right side of loop of "6", jutting out to the right. Uppermost point on S6, & on S7, is recut.

    Reverse: "E" is far right of "R". Triple dentil above S2 (the last S in STATES) at right. "N" is recut into two vertical lines on left upright.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,568 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's one that I believe is an O-123 (correct me if I'm wrong - don't have the book in front of me.) For those who want to see REALLY gigantic images, click the links at the bottom. Obtained from Don Frederick at a show in Frederick, MD along about 2002 or so.


    image

    REALLY gigantic obverse image

    REALLY gigantic reverse image
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Here's one that I believe is an O-123 (correct me if I'm wrong - don't have the book in front of me.) For those who want to see REALLY gigantic images, click the links at the bottom. Obtained from Don Frederick at a show in Frederick, MD along about 2002 or so.


    image

    REALLY gigantic obverse image

    REALLY gigantic reverse image >>

    This is indeed the O-123, and it has been upgraded to R4.

    Diagnostics:

    Obverse: Date is very low. S4 & S5 are quite flat and weak.

    Reverse: "I" is centered under left side of "T". Border of shield on left is thick and coarse, on right only a thin line. Crossbars run through the shield border on the right. Top apex of shield is unfinished. Center line of third stripe extends well below the shield.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • zap1111zap1111 Posts: 1,298 ✭✭
    Thanks, everyone. I need to get the camera out and help out on this whenever I can. It should be a great run of information.

    I'm curious how many of the bust half nuts contributing coins to this thread are knowledgeable enough to cite the diagnostics on their coins without getting help from one of the reference books. As I get farther into this field of study, I'm finding it challenging to commit the information to memory. I wish I could ... I felt a bit awkward at the MOON show in Minnesota on Friday with my Peterson and Overton on my lap as I looked over a few coins.

    Side report: The MOON show is fairly decent in size and scope. After checking all the dealer's tables, I disappointingly found very few busties from the early years of production, the usual glut of cleaned coins, and a few beauties, slabbed, in the upper ranges of the grading scale that were gorgeous and forever out of my price range. I did pick up a 1814/3 from Moneta in fine condition that has a nice look to it.
    zap1111
    102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
    BHNC #198
  • Here is my 1836.... I am not sure of the Overton number but here is the image. Maybe someone will know the number on this one. Sorry for the crummy photos. The coin is put away so this is all Ihave for now as far as images go.

    image
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    I was hoping for more action on posting 1836 Bust Halves today. Remember, all that is required is to post pictures. You do not need anything else.

    Sofar, we have posted only: 101 108a 110 113 115 123

    Guess I need to grab another 1836 and post it.image

    Bruceswar,

    Thanks for showing your 1836 CBH. Your coin is going to be hard to attribute from the pictures due to lack of dentils on either side and wear, a real challenge on this one. Dr. Peterson's book did not help me at all. Overton's book with a quick look also did me no good. Perhaps someone else will take the time to better me.


    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • Sorry for the crappy photos... OLD Photos.... Here is a blow up of the front if that helps...

    image
  • OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 5,438 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Brucewar,


    I believe that you may have just hit the jackpot. I think that your coin is 121-- a HIGH R-5+. The reverse is D used on both 105 and 121; best seen by the way the edge of the scroll lines up with the D in UNITED. The dotted 6 on the obverse date and the later states of both dies make it the 121--possibly the toughest R-5 in the latter dates--harder than 1833-115 and on a par with 1827-144.

    Jim
    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
  • I think you're right, it's the O-121. At first I thought it was the 105, but Peterson has this diagram where if you draw a line through the points of star 12 and extend it to the date, it passes through the bottom of the 8. Bruce, you did it again! Did you find this in the same pawn shop you found the 1921 Peace dollar?????
  • WOW! I am Stoked! I have had this coin for some time and never even knew. I picked this coin up at a coin shop in Shervport some years back. I debated pciking up the coin. It is now sitting in my type set. This just makes my day!! I need to get it out rephoto it and such. Thanks alot guys!
  • mepotmepot Posts: 585 ✭✭✭
    Gotta keep this thread going.I didn't realize the 1836 reeded edge was considered a pattern.Learn something

    new every day!This is an 1836,O-103,R4,per Overton 4th edition.The obv. diagnostics are: The stand of the

    1 shows below the base,and stars 7,8,11,and 13 are recut.Also the 3 is low and tilted left.Although this coin

    shows alot of wear,the rev. diagnostics include little or no milling.Also the 5 is lower than the 0.

    image
    image
    image
    image
    computer illiterate,becoming coin literate with the help of this forum.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    imageimage

    Some diagnostics for 1836 O-121 R5+:


    imageimage



    Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. Star 8 is recut at two upper points. Inner point of star 9 is very small. Dr. Glenn Peterson states there is gap in dentils between S8 & S9. There is a small bar and dot right of 6. He also says S12 points through the bottom of the 8, rather than through the middle of the 6.




    image



    Reverse: Lower tail feather penetrates well through upper olive branch. I is centered under left side of T.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • Two things to remember about attributing 1836 O.121. First, it is very, very often misattributed. All the major auction houses have sold high grade examples that weren't. Most famously, Heritage had an NGC 65 that was busted by Glenn. The one sure attribution point is that the inner point of star 9 is very small, and this can be seen at arm's length.

    Only 1830 O.114 is misattributed more often than 36 121. And at the rate that new 30 114s are turning up, it won't command much of a premium in 5 years.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    imageimage
    Some diagnostics for 1836 O-109 R3:

    imageimage

    Obverse: Star 7 is recut with a short thick tine rising from the upper outer point. S10, S12, and S13 are recut at upper points. 6 is larger and higher than 183. (Same as O-110.)

    imageimage
    Reverse: I is left of T. Recut olive stem over serif of C. 5 has a straight top, and loop is nearly closed. Center dot between crossbars 3 & 4.

    We now have shown 101 103 108a 109 110 113 115 121 123 Overton varieties. That leaves 14 marriages with no pictures. Remember, all one needs to do is show us pictures. No descriptions needed.

    Show your Bust Halves!image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,568 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just picked this one up at WESPNEX a couple of weeks ago (gee, can you guess why? image ). I hope the pics are big enough to allow for attribution.

    image


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    seanq,

    Is that a Guido on the rim by stars 3 & 4?image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,568 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Only 1830 O.114 is misattributed more often than 36 121. And at the rate that new 30 114s are turning up, it won't command much of a premium in 5 years.


    I'll agree with that, and tack on a story regarding the 1830 "Large Letters." I went to a show about 2-3 years back and looked through a bunch of bust halves that a local dealer had. I bought a nice 1825 in crusty XF that I will post when the appropriate thread appears. The dealer then showed me a purported 1830 O-114 in VG, priced at $1,800, that a collector sold to him earlier that day. The collector was all psyched about how he had cherry picked it on the other side of the room for a lousy $30. The trouble was that it wasn't an O-114, it really was a $30 VG 1830 bust half. The dealer was clearly starting to sweat, and tried to sell it to me pretty hard, but I wasn't going to be the one to tell him that he just got hosed. I hope he at least had the name of the "lucky" collector who made the big cherry pick.


    Regarding the 1836 coins in this thread, I think they are a bit scarcer as a date than some of the other 1830's dates. Doesn't anyone have an 1836 50/00 error that they can post?
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looks like a guido to me Sean. --- NICE
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • NapNap Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's a question. Do you think the 'docmented' mintage of 1200 for the 1836 RE half is accurate?

    From what I have heard, that number was a Breen estimate, based on how many were around when he was doing his research. Considering this pattern circulated a lot, the surviving percentage would be quite high for that era's standards. They are rare and valuable, but not that hard to find.

    I have heard someone suggest a possible corrected mintage of 5000-7500 pieces. Any thoughts on that?
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    imageimage

    Some diagnostics for 1836 O-102 R3:

    imageimage

    Obverse: Star 1 points to the lower edge of a dentil. (Hard to see in my picture, but definitely drawn to LE.) Obverse is shared with O-101, but in this late die state key identifiers have been lapped away. Star 6 may still show recutting on its upper point.

    Note: This marriage has the LDS obverse of O-101. O-102 exists in an EDS where the die has not been lapped, therefore the same DS as O-101.

    imageimageimage

    Reverse: I is centered under the left side of T. Crossbars 2 & 3 extend left of shield. 5 in 50 C is lower than 0. (Reverse is same as O-103.)


    Show us your Capped Bust Halves!image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,672 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I just wanna say thank you for starting this thread and all those that have posted to it.

    This one is like an orgy (and all the weemin are plump image ).
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1836 O104 R3 (Photos courtesy of the Heritage Archive)

    Obverse die #2. For quick reference pick up of the obverse die look for the recut 1 in the date. The upright of 1 will extend downward below the base of the 1.

    Reverse die C. A left over "small 5C" die originally used in 1834. Centering dot apparent between crossbars 4 &5.


    Also O104 R3a with a circular reverse die crack running from tail feathers, through leaves, to tip of left wing, through UNITED, follows the top of the scroll to terminate at the top of right wing.


    image

    image
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1836 O105 R4 (Photos courtesy of the Heritage Archive)

    Obverse die #3. Small 3 in date that is nearly closed both at top and bottom.

    Reverse die D. Vertical corrugated bars typically seen leaves and 50C from rim to claws. VEDS coins such as the one imaged are known to not exhibit these bars.



    image

    image
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1836 O106 R1 (Photos courtesy of Heritage Archive)

    Obverse die #4. Stars 1-9 typically struck flat while Stars 10-13 are much nicer and show more detail.

    Reverse die E. The one and only reverse die in the lettered edge series to feature a raised edge with beaded segments.


    Also O106a R3 with crack from rim through right wing to scroll. VLDS coins will have another crack will run from upper right wing to C1.


    image

    image
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok so the marriages we are still missing for 1836 are 107, 111, 112, 114, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120 and 122. I think this has gone pretty good so far, especially considering it's the first thread. More than 50% of the marriages are already represented.

    Good job folks image


  • << <i>seanq,

    Is that a Guido on the rim by stars 3 & 4?image >>



    Guido??? please explain.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>seanq,

    Is that a Guido on the rim by stars 3 & 4?image >>



    Guido??? please explain. >>

    I think it was Brad Karoleff who studied rim pinches, and gave them the name Guidos. I recommend contacting Brad through the John Reich Society web site to see about purchasing back copies of the JR journal. When I joined the society many years ago, I was able to purchase ALL the back copies.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,454 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>
    I think it was Brad Karoleff who studied rim pinches, and gave them the name Guidos. I recommend contacting Brad through the John Reich Society web site to see about purchasing back copies of the JR journal. When I joined the society many years ago, I was able to purchase ALL the back copies. >>



    I understand that the duties of maintaining and selling back issues of the JR Journal have switched to the Society's secretary (no longer Brad). The web site has not been changed to reflect this change in responsibility. Not all of the back issues are available nowadays.


  • << <i>Here's a question. Do you think the 'docmented' mintage of 1200 for the 1836 RE half is accurate? >>



    No, it is an oft-repeated WAG of Breen's. Accurate is not the descriptor I'd use. Mintage for all 1836 halves is reported in Overton as 6,546,200. Breen took that as 1200 reeded edge 36s and the rest as lettered edges. The truth is we will never know how many were made, but based on the frequency that they are seen, I'd guess at least 10,000, maybe many more.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    imageimage

    Some diagnostics for 1836 O-110 R1:

    imageimageimage

    Obverse: Star 7 is recut with a short thick tine rising from the upper outer point. S10, S12, and S13 are recut at upper points. 6 is larger and higher than 183. (Same obverse as O-109.)


    imageimageimage

    Reverse: Left side of T in line with right side of I. Recut olive stem over upright of C. 50 is smaller than C, and the 5 is low. First S in STATES is high. One line from each of the first four stripes extend to the second crossbar. Upper right top of shield extends upward.


    We now have shown at least one example of the following 1836 marriages:

    101-106, 108-110, 113, 115, 121, 123

    We have not yet shown:

    107, 111, 112, 114, 116-120, 122

    Dig out those 1836 LETTERED edge Capped Bust Halves and show us their pictures.

    The 1835 Capped Bust Half thread is started, and awaits your input.

    1835 CBH thread

    Plan ahead, grab your Busties from your safety deposit box, and shoot them before the new mint year threads are started. I scanned coins down to 1830 already.

    Thanks to all who have so far contributed to this huge project.image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    imageimage

    Some diagnostics for 1836 O-111 R3:

    imageimageimage

    Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. Sharp stars in from dentils. Date is evenly spaced.

    Reverse: Extended olive stem is attached by a small projection to a high large C. This area is usually weakly struck in this area. I is centered under T.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    imageimage

    Some diagnostics for Bar Dot 1836 O-112 R1:

    image

    Obverse: 83 is closer than 18 or 36. 6 is recut at lower left, and a short bar and dot protrude right from its loop.

    imageimageimage

    Reverse: A die line joins the lower arrowhead to the middle arrowhead where it is attached to its shaft. 50 C is high, with the 5 higher than 0. Centering dot between crossbars 3 & 4 at left.

    We are still missing O-107, 114, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, and 122. Remember, we want to see duplicates of all marriages. This is to be an ongoing thread.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey Mozin, I didn't know you wanted dupes alsoimage
    1836/1336 O-108
    image
    image
    image
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Are we there yet?image

    image
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • I am like you waiting for the next date to come out image
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    imageimage

    Some diagnostics for 1836 O-122 R2:

    image

    Obverse: 6 in date is high and has a dot to the right of its loop. Stars are sharp, and well in from rim.

    imageimage

    Reverse: Tine extends left from upper serif of E in STATES. Many crossbars extend into left wing. I is centered under right side of T.


    We have yet to show even one example of the following Overton numbers: 107, 114, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120. Feel free to post your 1836 CBHs even though someone already posted your marriage. Duplicates are fine. Comments alone are also wanted. We want to keep this thread somewhere up in the thread listings, so it is noticed.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    There are lots of 1836 lettered edge Capped Bust Halves held by CU members. Where are they?image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ttt on this Sunday morning.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,454 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>There are lots of 1836 lettered edge Capped Bust Halves held by CU members. Where are they?image >>



    This one was in my safe deposit box...

    I attribute it as an O-113



    imageimage
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    imageimage

    Some diagnostics for 1836 O-115 R3:

    imageimageimage

    Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of dentil. “8” is recut above its entire top curve. Date is low with thick numerals. Stars 2, 5, and 12 are recut.

    imageimage

    Reverse: There is a diagonal line running from near bottom of stripe 4 up to stripe 5. “50C” is high with the broad curved top “5” higher than “0”. “I” in “AMERICA” is recut at its base. Straight die line from tip of upper leaf to left wing. Circular die lines below S-O and F-A. Right sides of “I” and “T” in line.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.

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