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Will Bobby Cox or Joe Torre make the Hall of Fame as Managers?

RickyHendersonSDRickyHendersonSD Posts: 327
in Sports Talk
Discuss.

I say yes for both.

Comments

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,694 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree. Torre is even worthy of some consideration as a player.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • lawnmowermanlawnmowerman Posts: 19,477 ✭✭✭✭
    Both easily

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  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not much to discuss, they are both in without question IMO.
  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No brainer for each.
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  • AxtellAxtell Posts: 10,037 ✭✭
    Torre before landing the dream job of managers was a sub .500 manager.

    Bobby Cox took team after team that was supposedly 'done' and destined for the cellar and turned them into division winners.
  • bri2327bri2327 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭


    << <i>Torre before landing the dream job of managers was a sub .500 manager.

    Bobby Cox took team after team that was supposedly 'done' and destined for the cellar and turned them into division winners. >>



    Who'da thunk you would bash Torre...I am shocked.
    "The other teams could make trouble for us if they win."
    -- Yogi Berra

    image
  • AxtellAxtell Posts: 10,037 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Torre before landing the dream job of managers was a sub .500 manager.

    Bobby Cox took team after team that was supposedly 'done' and destined for the cellar and turned them into division winners. >>



    Who'da thunk you would bash Torre...I am shocked. >>



    Who's bashing him? Am I wrong in stating had a sub .500 record before coming to the yankees?

    Please tell me I am wrong.
  • bri2327bri2327 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Torre before landing the dream job of managers was a sub .500 manager.

    Bobby Cox took team after team that was supposedly 'done' and destined for the cellar and turned them into division winners. >>



    Who'da thunk you would bash Torre...I am shocked. >>



    Who's bashing him? Am I wrong in stating had a sub .500 record before coming to the yankees?

    Please tell me I am wrong. >>



    No you are not wrong. You still didnt answer the question. Instead you managed to point out the negative of the yankee manager and leave it at that...as usual.
    "The other teams could make trouble for us if they win."
    -- Yogi Berra

    image
  • AxtellAxtell Posts: 10,037 ✭✭


    << <i>
    No you are not wrong. You still didnt answer the question. Instead you managed to point out the negative of the yankee manager and leave it at that...as usual. >>



    I wouldn't call Torre a great manager. Like I said, before the yankees, he wasn't even a .500 one. Yet, put him in charge of a team that continually has the best players on it, and he's gonna win some games by default. Just calling a spade a spade.

    I say Cox is an infinitely better manager. Has done a great deal more with less, always has.

  • yankeeno7yankeeno7 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭
    You can't be a winner without the right players. No matter what you have, you still have to bring them together as a team and control the egos and personalities.

    In Cox's first 13 years as a manager, his team finished better than 4th ONLY TWICE! Yes, that's correct....TWICE.

    Torre has done an awesome job since coming to NY regardless of what he has for players. He will deservingly make the HOF as a manager.
  • bri2327bri2327 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭
    Barry,

    Nobody who ever made the hall in a Yankee uni has been deserving. The sooner you realize that the better.
    "The other teams could make trouble for us if they win."
    -- Yogi Berra

    image
  • AxtellAxtell Posts: 10,037 ✭✭


    << <i>You can't be a winner without the right players. No matter what you have, you still have to bring them together as a team and control the egos and personalities.

    In Cox's first 13 years as a manager, his team finished better than 4th ONLY TWICE! Yes, that's correct....TWICE.

    Torre has done an awesome job since coming to NY regardless of what he has for players. He will deservingly make the HOF as a manager. >>



    What are you talking about?

    In his 8th year, his team finished 2nd; 9th, 1st; 11th, 1st; 12th, 1st, 13th, 1st.

    You are wrong in your assumption about Cox.

    Bobby Cox Managerial Record

  • yankeeno7yankeeno7 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭
    That is exactly what I was looking at...I think you may need some more grammar school.

    From 1978-1990 he was above 4th place twice...in 1984 and 1985. Yes, there are years that he didnt manage...and probably for that exact reason. So a total of 9 years at VERY sub .500 ball.

    Don't get me wrong, Im not taking anything away from Cox..he was great, no doubt...but keep Cox and Torre on a level playing field. I don't think Torre's first years as a Yankees manager he was given all the talent you want to throw in his face now. And even with all the talent he has done a great job.
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,694 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From 1978-1990 he was above 4th place twice...in 1984 and 1985. Yes, there are years that he didnt manage...and probably for that exact reason. So a total of 9 years at VERY sub .500 ball.

    Nice spin move there, but Ax is right on this one.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • yankeeno7yankeeno7 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭
    What is there to spin? That is his managerial record. It speaks for itself.
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,694 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Exactly, Cox finished 2nd in his 7th year & 1st in his 8th (he was manager of the year in 1985, his last with Totonto) and his run of division titles with Atl started in his 10th year to the present. How can you say that he only finished 4th or better in his first 13 years when he wasn't even managing from 1985 to 1990! image


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • AxtellAxtell Posts: 10,037 ✭✭


    << <i>How can you say that he only finished 4th or better in his first 13 years when he wasn't even managing from 1985 to 1990! >>



    It's the yankee way!


    When the facts of the situation present themselves (that Torre STUNK as a manger prior to joining the yankees), slam Cox.

  • yankeeno7yankeeno7 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭
    Grote
    I more specified the numbers so it would be best that you go back and read. Again, specifically, his first 9 years MANAGING he made it above 4th place.

    And why didnt he manage from 86-89? Because there were clubs who thought there were better managers out there? I dont know if that is the reason but the fact is that he didnt manage but eventually came back.

    So your STRETCH of years that he didnt manage 1985-1990 is inaccurate. He DID manage in 1985 and also 1990. Is that YOUR spin because it isnt mine.

    Regardless, the fact remains that Cox and Torre started their careers quite similar. They are also ending their careers quite similar...other than the rings that Torre has.

    So, now that I have CLARIFIED...how about your spin?
  • yankeeno7yankeeno7 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭
    Axhole,

    Quit embarassing yourself. I clarified and proved my point with the FACTS.

    And go back and read...I give Cox his props. He was a great manager, no doubt. What I am doing is showing the comparison of managerial history because lack of knowledge "fans" like yourself want to slam Torre because he is the Yankees skipper.
  • AxtellAxtell Posts: 10,037 ✭✭
    yankeeno-

    you're pathetic. Just admit you tried to spin Cox's record and you'd get some credibility back. As it is, you're digging yourself into a bigger hole.

  • yankeeno7yankeeno7 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭
    Like it or not, Axhole you know I'm right.

    Believe me, I dont worry about showing you any credibility.
  • AxtellAxtell Posts: 10,037 ✭✭


    << <i>Like it or not, Axhole you know I'm right.

    Believe me, I dont worry about showing you any credibility. >>



    Right about what?



    << <i>In Cox's first 13 years as a manager, his team finished better than 4th ONLY TWICE! Yes, that's correct....TWICE >>



    This is Cox's first 13 years as a manager. Years NOT managing do not count as years MANAGING.

    1978 NL West Atlanta 37 162 69 93 .426 6
    1979 NL West Atlanta 38 160 66 94 .412 6
    1980 NL West Atlanta 39 161 81 80 .503 4
    1981 NL West Atlanta 40 55 25 29 .463 4 First half of season
    1981 NL West Atlanta 40 52 25 27 .481 5 Second half of season

    1982 AL East Toronto 41 162 78 84 .481 6
    1983 AL East Toronto 42 162 89 73 .549 4
    1984 AL East Toronto 43 163 89 73 .549 2 one
    1985 AL East Toronto 44 161 99 62 .615 1 two

    1990 NL West Atlanta 49 97 40 57 .412 6
    1991 NL West Atlanta 50 162 94 68 .580 NL 1 three
    1992 NL West Atlanta 51 162 98 64 .605 NL 1 four
    1993 NL West Atlanta 52 162 104 58 .642 1 five

    You are absolutely, completely, positively WRONG.
  • yankeeno7yankeeno7 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭
    And so you can feel all warm and fuzzy...I do admit that I only looked at the first and last year of 1978 and 1990...I didnt notice the FOUR years he didnt manage...and I did find it interesting that he didnt manage those years.

    And as I said before, regardless...9 years of very sub .500 ball. He's been a great manager and deserves the Hall of Fame.

    Do you feel better now? Mommy will come give you a hug.
  • yankeeno7yankeeno7 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭
    Thank you for proving MY point Axhole...and spinning it YOUR way....I stated through 1990...THAT is why my point is validated.
  • AxtellAxtell Posts: 10,037 ✭✭


    << <i>And so you can feel all warm and fuzzy...I do admit that I only looked at the first and last year of 1978 and 1990...I didnt notice the FOUR years he didnt manage...and I did find it interesting that he didnt manage those years.
    >>



    1982 NL West Atlanta 41 162 89 73 .549 1
    1983 NL West Atlanta 42 162 88 74 .543 2
    1984 NL West Atlanta 43 162 80 82 .494 3

    1990 NL East St.Louis 49 58 24 34 .414 6

    Who's record is this? Notice the gap between 1985 and 1989? Hmmmm...I find it interesting he didn't manage those years.
  • yankeeno7yankeeno7 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭
    Did I say that Torre first years weren't as successful as now? Did I? Anyone? Anyone?
  • yankeeno7yankeeno7 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭
    Of course, I prove my point and Axhole does his spin...Im getting dizzy so Im leaving this thread to rest.

    Have fun playing here by yourself Axhole.
  • AxtellAxtell Posts: 10,037 ✭✭
    You want to call Torre a great manager, and call out Cox for having a gap in his employment history.

    Torre has the same gap...and you never refuted that you tried to spin Cox's managing history.

    Good stuff...thanks for the laughs!!!
  • bri2327bri2327 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭
    For what it is worth, strictly x's and o's Cox is clearly a superior manager to Torre. I dont think there is any debate there. What Torre has been exceptional with over the years is his handling of George & the media.
    "The other teams could make trouble for us if they win."
    -- Yogi Berra

    image
  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also, the Yankees sucked the 13 years or so before Torre came on board, 1995 (wild card) nothwithstanding. And for those that say Showalter set the stage, I'm not buying it.
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  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,984 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Joe Torre is a lock. If Casy Stengel got into the Hall of Fame for his time with the Yankees in the 1950s (He would not have gotten there as a player or as a manager before or after his Yankee days), Torre certainly deserves to be elected.

    Bobby Cox is a tougher call. His teams won a lot of division titles, but they have been chronic underachievers in the post season. With the kind of great pitching and decent hitting the Braves have had during the Cox reign, one would have expected more than one World Series win.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I give a thumbs up to both of them. Best managers of their time.
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  • ctsoxfanctsoxfan Posts: 6,246 ✭✭
    Best managers of their time?

    Torre stunk as a manager for years before he landed the Yankee job. Since then, he has won. But then again, who couldn't win in that position? It's like saying Cashman is the best GM ever - show me the guy who does more with less, and that's the sign of a great manager. To pilot the Yankees fantasy baseball lineup to victory is hardly difficult. In fact, he should be bashed for all the times he lost despite having a gigantic payroll disparity over his opponent in a playoff / World Series.

    Cox, on the other hand, is a lock as a HOF manager.
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  • JamericonJamericon Posts: 438 ✭✭✭
    They are both shoe-ins for the HOF.

    Cox- 16 years at the Braves helm (not including this year)- 14 NL East titles, 5 pennants and the '95 series title. Enough said.

    Torre- 10 seasons with the Yanks (not including this year) 6 pennants and 4 WS titles. Enough said.

    BTW- For those who still cling to the cynicism that the Yankees "bought" their late 1990' series title- they did not. Get over it. Those titles were won with consistent line-ups and rosters, and farm-team talent.
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  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,694 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And why didnt he manage from 86-89? Because there were clubs who thought there were better managers out there? I dont know if that is the reason but the fact is that he didnt manage but eventually came back.

    Oh yeah, that must have been it. After all, why would any club want to consider a guy whose last year with the Jays (1985) he was the AL Manager of the Year award winner!! image


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • numonebuyernumonebuyer Posts: 2,136 ✭
    Yes
  • jlbsquaredjlbsquared Posts: 840
    Torre with the Yankees - +.500
    with the Cardinals - +.500
    with the Braves - +.500


    with a horrible Mets team that he took as his first managerial job at age 36 - -.500
  • numonebuyernumonebuyer Posts: 2,136 ✭
    The Hall of Fame looks at two things to put a manager in... Total Wins and/or championships. They really don't break it down into categories that say he was a great manager of great teams or a bad manager of bad teams. Both have sustained winning records over multiple consecutive years. It is very hard to do this in baseball. I am no Yankees or Braves fan, but I remember the teams that were in place prior to the arrival of both managers to their respective teams. Neither teams were horrible, but neither teams had won division titles in quite some time. Remember the Yankees prior to Torre had made the post season once and lost the series to Seattle for the only post season that Mattingly had ever seen. The Braves were usually good but not great. They typically finished second or third to the Reds or Dodgers (back in the days of the wacky NL West stretching from coast to coast).

    Stop griping and give both managers their due respect. They rank with the best and will be with the best someday in the future.
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