This has been an interesting thread. Some of the opinions were surprising. I think when you commit to buy, you follow through, accept your responsibility. Gotta return it? So what, that's how it's set up. Down the other path lies chaos.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Are you friggin kidding me! I didn't even read any of the responses after the first post. Of course your wrong for not wanting to pay. Come on! If I was the seller, I'd be ticked beyond recognition of a buyer pulled a stunt like that.
<< <i>When was the last time you heard of an actual case of someone going to court to sue for eBay non-performance? >>
A couple weeks ago. It was on The People's Court. I swear! Some guy decided not to sell his car after another guy bought it, sent him the money, then sold his own car. I don't know how it ended because I was watching it in the lobby of the doctor's office and my appointment was called before the verdict!
<< <i>When was the last time you heard of an actual case of someone going to court to sue for eBay non-performance? >>
A couple weeks ago. It was on The People's Court. I swear! Some guy decided not to sell his car after another guy bought it, sent him the money, then sold his own car. I don't know how it ended because I was watching it in the lobby of the doctor's office and my appointment was called before the verdict! >>
pendragon1998 – I love it when people show just how stupid they really are. Was that the best you can come up with, is your argument that weak? If you could have defended your position, you would have, you talk the talk but that is all it is just a bunch of BS.
TAClough - Anyone with a brain could read my posts and understands my position. Anyone who can't be bothered to is just spouting BS anyway. As for your opinion of my intelligence level, I could care less. Buzz off, tiny little man...you're not worth my time.
<< <i>Now, that's not to say that if I was a seller I wouldn't block you from buying from me in the future just to avoid future headaches. Still, that's about the only thing I'd worry about doing. >>
Pendragon- you say this out of one side of your mouth. Why would you consider blocking him if the OP had done nothing wrong?
<< <i> A no questions asked return policy does not give a buyer the right to place bids willy nilly and then breach the deal simply because they changed their mind.
Russ, NCNE >>
<< <i>Um, that's exactly the right that it gives the bidder. If you wanted to put conditions on the return policy (e.g. "Returns accepted only for damaged or misrepresented items") then the buyer wouldn't have the right to return a coin because they changed their mind. Notice I didn't say "breach the deal" - the deal was, "if you decide you want to return the item, we'll accept your return no questions asked." pendragon >>
What a crop of crap, he would have to receive the item before he had a return privilege.
<< <i> Looks like I'm in the minority, but ….. >>
This is probably the only thing that you said that makes any sense. Glad most people on eBay or these Boards are not like you.
Your last post just proved my point, that you have no substance: You wrote, “You know what? I could explain myself to you. Or I could tell you you're an ass and to shut your flapping pie hole. I'll leave it up to you to decide which of the two I decided on. ” But when I tell you that your argument is weak, and if you could have defended your position, you would have. The best that you can come back with is “Anyone with a brain could read my posts and understands my position. Anyone who can't be bothered to is just spouting BS anyway. As for your opinion of my intelligence level, I could care less. Buzz off, tiny little man...you're not worth my time. “ You have what I call “little man syndrome”, are you that much of a joke in person as you are hiding behind your keyboard? I would wait for your reply, but you have proven to be lacking in common sense or the ability to communicate anything of substance or intelligence.
You should honor your bid. People who bid and then flake out really hack me off. These jerks simply do not want to take responsibility for their actions. That you would ask this kind of stupid question in a forum shows a total lack of class on your part.
<< <i>You should honor your bid. People who bid and then flake out really hack me off. These jerks simply do not want to take responsibility for their actions. That you would ask this kind of stupid question in a forum shows a total lack of class on your part. >>
Typical over-reaction. If the OP never intended to honor his bid, he never would have entered into communication with the seller, after the end of the auction, period. Then, the seller would have to go the whole nine yards, reporting, investigation, etc. to get his listing fees back. Quite different from this actual scenario.
Calling postings stupid is a typical hack method of dealing with the subject matter. No real thought behind it, no substance to it. The OP had no intention of not honoring his bid, IMHO, if something else could not be worked out.
Let's hang them all, and sort out the facts later. As if no one ever had second thoughts about their purchases...
Hard to imagine, all of the perfect people, who never make mistakes or have second thoughts about anything, that frequent this forum.
John
John C. Knudsen, LM ANA 2342, LM CSNS 337 SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
<< <i>I'll jump in with the minority here and say you had every right to request to cancel the deal. A "no questions asked" return policy is carte blanche to return the item for ANY reason. Not just because you reviewed and declined the coin (as Russ said). As a seller I'd rather someone offer to cover the relisting fees rather than having to hassle with the sale/return if the buyer were certain they'd be returning it under my policy anyway. Your right to ask though doesn't mean the seller is obligated to accept your offer. If they want to force the charade of sending and returning then that's what you should do. IMO. >>
"Business101", not just Coins101. One of the reasons I have 100% Positive feedback is to use the common sense approach quoted above.
First I have to say, Yes, you are wrong. But let me add, I have won an ebay auction with a mistake bid. In that, I wanted to bid $70.00 on the item, Im not sure if I left out the (.), or if I hit (,) instead. But the bid posted as $700.00, or 7000.00.
The Second place bidder drove the finish price up to about $150.00, on a 1/10 oz $5 Gold Eagle.
I certainly had no intention of going more than the $70.00 bid I ment to make. I did contact the seller and explain my problem. And asked them to treat it as a return, and cancel the sale, without shipping it. I offered to pay for the trouble, relisting fee, or whatever.
I also told them up front, if they could not see there way clear to do this for me. I would pay the price. It is a contract, and commitment after all.
I did have another coin from the same seller ordered the same day. My seller was good to me. Let me off on that one. Possitive feedback both ways. All was good.
(Old man) Look I had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife was, “That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah”.
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
<< <i>I'll jump in with the minority here and say you had every right to request to cancel the deal. A "no questions asked" return policy is carte blanche to return the item for ANY reason. Not just because you reviewed and declined the coin (as Russ said). As a seller I'd rather someone offer to cover the relisting fees rather than having to hassle with the sale/return if the buyer were certain they'd be returning it under my policy anyway. Your right to ask though doesn't mean the seller is obligated to accept your offer. If they want to force the charade of sending and returning then that's what you should do. IMO. >>
"Business101", not just Coins101. One of the reasons I have 100% Positive feedback is to use the common sense approach quoted above.
Doug >>
Yes, there really appears to be a bunch of members without ANY common sense. I hate to tell all you hangmen out there, but the world is not black and white. I had a SIMPLE request of the seller and it was up to him to decide. It is like having someone buy two coins from you and ask to have them shipped together (after the fact) even though it is not in your listing. The seller can accept it or not. Based upon your responses, it seems all of you would refuse to ship the coins together because it was not in the listing.
When I posted this "stupid question", I did it kind of tongue and cheek ("flame suit deployed") knowing it was going to cause a controversy and bring out the flakes that THINK they are so perfect. Like johnsim03 said, "I guess every village needs its idiots...” Boy did we hit the jackpot here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With that said, I ask the moderators to lock this thread down.
<< <i>I'll jump in with the minority here and say you had every right to request to cancel the deal. A "no questions asked" return policy is carte blanche to return the item for ANY reason. Not just because you reviewed and declined the coin (as Russ said). As a seller I'd rather someone offer to cover the relisting fees rather than having to hassle with the sale/return if the buyer were certain they'd be returning it under my policy anyway. Your right to ask though doesn't mean the seller is obligated to accept your offer. If they want to force the charade of sending and returning then that's what you should do. IMO. >>
"Business101", not just Coins101. One of the reasons I have 100% Positive feedback is to use the common sense approach quoted above.
Doug >>
Yes, there really appears to be a bunch of members without ANY common sense. I hate to tell all you hangmen out there, but the world is not black and white. I had a SIMPLE request of the seller and it was up to him to decide. It is like having someone buy two coins from you and ask to have them shipped together (after the fact) even though it is not in your listing. The seller can accept it or not. Based upon your responses, it seems all of you would refuse to ship the coins together because it was not in the listing.
When I posted this "stupid question", I did it kind of tongue and cheek ("flame suit deployed") knowing it was going to cause a controversy and bring out the flakes that THINK they are so perfect. Like johnsim03 said, "I guess every village needs its idiots...” Boy did we hit the jackpot here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With that said, I ask the moderators to lock this thread down. >>
Why? So you can have the last word? You said yourself you were prepared for controversy.
But it will be interesting to see if they comply. Maybe you're one of the members with clout.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>I'll jump in with the minority here and say you had every right to request to cancel the deal. A "no questions asked" return policy is carte blanche to return the item for ANY reason. Not just because you reviewed and declined the coin (as Russ said). As a seller I'd rather someone offer to cover the relisting fees rather than having to hassle with the sale/return if the buyer were certain they'd be returning it under my policy anyway. Your right to ask though doesn't mean the seller is obligated to accept your offer. If they want to force the charade of sending and returning then that's what you should do. IMO. >>
"Business101", not just Coins101. One of the reasons I have 100% Positive feedback is to use the common sense approach quoted above.
Doug >>
Yes, there really appears to be a bunch of members without ANY common sense. I hate to tell all you hangmen out there, but the world is not black and white. I had a SIMPLE request of the seller and it was up to him to decide. It is like having someone buy two coins from you and ask to have them shipped together (after the fact) even though it is not in your listing. The seller can accept it or not. Based upon your responses, it seems all of you would refuse to ship the coins together because it was not in the listing.
When I posted this "stupid question", I did it kind of tongue and cheek ("flame suit deployed") knowing it was going to cause a controversy and bring out the flakes that THINK they are so perfect. Like johnsim03 said, "I guess every village needs its idiots...” Boy did we hit the jackpot here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With that said, I ask the moderators to lock this thread down. >>
They need to lock you down! No it is not like someone buying two coins , and asking for combined shipping. Most of us will combine shipping if someone buys more than one item.
I am not worried about combined shipping, but YOU buying two products and then justifying why you do not have to go through with the purchase. It is called taking responsibility!
I'm surprised that anyone thinks this is okay. He COMMITTED to buy something. What makes ebay work is that people follow through on these commitments. A return policy can only be enacted upon making a purchase. By not paying in the first place, a purchase was never completed. So, you have to follow the order of things and play them out as proper. Agree to buy. Pay for. Inspect. Return if you like. Sure, it sounds picky to make someone go through the steps... after all, why not just take the shortcut... well, because the shortcut bypasses the proscribed process. It sort of all about civilized behavior. There is a reason we have rules, and don't break them. There is a reason we follow the law, even though 'no one will be hurt if I break it this one time'. The 'spirit' of the return policy is to allow one to inspect and ensure that what they got met the promise of what was described. It is not intended to allow someone to simply have a change of heart or buyers remorse before even completing the contract. It is not always easy to simply push an item to the next bidder (I move on after losing an auction and bid on another, so often am no longer free to accept a second chance offer). I don't get it. The OP has a commitment to buy. He needs to accept this. The seller then will have a commitment to return should the OP chose to do so, and should accept this. If you are going to play on ebay, you need to play by the rules, and accept the responsibility for your bids. Suck it up. I've gone a bit crazy and bid way too much in the heat of the moment... not the sellers problem. Mine. Enforcible or not, it is a contract! Respect the contract.
<< <i>I'll jump in with the minority here and say you had every right to request to cancel the deal. A "no questions asked" return policy is carte blanche to return the item for ANY reason. Not just because you reviewed and declined the coin (as Russ said). As a seller I'd rather someone offer to cover the relisting fees rather than having to hassle with the sale/return if the buyer were certain they'd be returning it under my policy anyway. Your right to ask though doesn't mean the seller is obligated to accept your offer. If they want to force the charade of sending and returning then that's what you should do. IMO. >>
"Business101", not just Coins101. One of the reasons I have 100% Positive feedback is to use the common sense approach quoted above.
Doug >>
Yes, there really appears to be a bunch of members without ANY common sense. I hate to tell all you hangmen out there, but the world is not black and white. I had a SIMPLE request of the seller and it was up to him to decide. It is like having someone buy two coins from you and ask to have them shipped together (after the fact) even though it is not in your listing. The seller can accept it or not. Based upon your responses, it seems all of you would refuse to ship the coins together because it was not in the listing.
When I posted this "stupid question", I did it kind of tongue and cheek ("flame suit deployed") knowing it was going to cause a controversy and bring out the flakes that THINK they are so perfect. Like johnsim03 said, "I guess every village needs its idiots...” Boy did we hit the jackpot here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With that said, I ask the moderators to lock this thread down. >>
Why would the moderators lock this thread? It's a good lesson for people like you.
I take it most of you don't work in the real business world. I do and things like this come up all the time. Some are accepted, some are negotiated and others are declined. That is the way the real business world works. It you can't come to terms, you have to get the lawyers involved and litigate the resolution (like we don't have enough litigation in the world!!). 99.9% of these situations that I have had to deal with were resolved in a manner equitable to both parties.
Like I said, it was a SIMPLE request and it was up to the seller to accept it or not. It has happened to me a couple times and I was glad not to go through the motions of packaging and shipping the item KNOWING it was going to be returned. The buyers made me more than whole (no damages on my part) and I ended up selling the items the next week for more money. But, it was up to me, the seller to accept the request. If I did not want to, I would not. If this seller did not want to accept my request, I would pay. It is simple and straight forward.
I even had one buyer pay for the item except the shipping and told me to keep it (the shipping and handling was about the same price as the cost of the item). He had changed his mind. He said he could find it cheaper at a B&M store. I accepted his payment and re-listed it. It sold. Again, I suppose most of you would jump up on your soap box and DEMAND the shipping and handling charges so you could ship it. After all, the "contract" is not complete until the buyer receives the item.
<< I'll jump in with the minority here and say you had every right to request to cancel the deal. A "no questions asked" return policy is carte blanche to return the item for ANY reason. Not just because you reviewed and declined the coin (as Russ said). As a seller I'd rather someone offer to cover the relisting fees rather than having to hassle with the sale/return if the buyer were certain they'd be returning it under my policy anyway. Your right to ask though doesn't mean the seller is obligated to accept your offer. If they want to force the charade of sending and returning then that's what you should do. IMO. >>
Yes, there really appears to be a bunch of members without ANY common sense. I hate to tell all you hangmen out there, but the world is not black and white. I had a SIMPLE request of the seller and it was up to him to decide. It is like having someone buy two coins from you and ask to have them shipped together (after the fact) even though it is not in your listing. The seller can accept it or not. Based upon your responses, it seems all of you would refuse to ship the coins together because it was not in the listing.
A "no questions asked" return policy is carte blanche to return the item for ANY reason. It should not be just some marketing ploy to get more bidders. If the seller didn't mean it then he shouldn't state it. If the seller put it in the listing then you are well within your right to cancel without owing him a cent or expecting any neg. The fact you offered him anything shows you have some class and was a good thing to do.
Try not to listen to the insulting types who have grown up with the usual Internet chatroom manners. They post a lot in forums because in real life they can't keep friends. They lack people skills.
<< <i>He COMMITTED to buy something. >>
WRONG!!!!!
He committed to an agreement. Part of the agreement was a right to return the item "no questions asked". This was his choice. He fulfilled his committment. End of deal.
I don't think this is about the question of 'is it okay to negotiate out of a deal'. That can happen, and it is up to the SELLER to determine if they want to accept any negotiated deal. The question is, edited for sensibility 'Am I wrong for not wanting to pay?' The answer, absent having access to the seller and understanding what their take on this is, YES. You agreed to buy, you should pay. It is a little late to determine you made a mistake after the auction closed. That is using the system, and that sort of behavior will utlimately cause the downfall of systems like ebay. Ebay is solely a trust based system. You TRUST that people will fulfill their end of the bargain, and they TRUST that you will fulfill yours. When this trust starts to break down, the system falls apart. It is easy to point out how any rational seller would negotiate with the buyer... but that is always situational, and we have no way of knowing if it is reasonable. So, the buyer put in a bid. The buyer should pay. It is not reasonable to talk about what WE as the seller would do to be fair and rational, or what we have done. We don't know the situation of the seller in question here. We can't take any facts into evidence on that side of the house. So, we go with the question asked in its purest form. To me, it is a simple question of right and wrong. Not paying is wrong. Paying as promised is right.
He committed to an agreement. Part of the agreement was a right to return the item "no questions asked". This was his choice. He fulfilled his committment. End of deal. >>
He commited to an agreement? Huh? In the real world, when you place a bid, the commitment is to complete a financial transaction for the amount you offer, for the item offered. That is buying something. That is the transaction.
The return is an agreement that is available post transaction. You can not return something that has not been recieved.
The seller did not put in the listing that the transaction can be cancelled at any time. They said the item can be returned. Pure definition of return is: -To go or come back, as to an earlier condition or place. -To revert in speech, thought, or practice. -To revert to a former owner. -To answer or respond.
I think that to revert to a former owner, something has to move to a new owner... so you have to take ownership, which you do upon paying for an item. You can't walk up to the return counter in a store and return an item you don't own... it makes no sense. Ebay is a forum for forming intent, and carrying it through. Terms and conditions for returns are triggered AFTER a person takes ownership. You can't have any RIGHT as an owner, until you are an owner.
<< <i>I take it most of you don't work in the real business world. I do and things like this come up all the time. Some are accepted, some are negotiated and others are declined. That is the way the real business world works. >>
In the real business world, the negotiation occurs before the commitment is made, not after.
<< <i>You TRUST that people will fulfill their end of the bargain, and they TRUST that you will fulfill yours >>
He DID fulfill his end of the bargain. The SELLER set the terms. One of the terms was a "no questions asked" return policy. (hopefully)The seller put that term in the deal because he wanted a "satisfied buyer." This buyer was not satisfied.
Those of you who sell on Ebay and only wish to "screw" the biggest fish and not give them a way out should not use these terms. If you only want the most money and don't give a da*m about the others guys satisfaction then say, NO RETURNS. Myself, I don't want a buyer who wishes he hadn't bought from me. I don't need the money that bad.
Stores want satified customers. How many of you take an item back later because you didn't really want it or found it cheaper elsewhere?The right of return was a part of the agreement.
<< <i>In the real business world, the negotiation occurs before the commitment is made, not after. >>
Thats not really true in business particularly in the corporate world.
<< <i>One of the terms was a "no questions asked" return policy. >>
I'm surprised that justification keeps coming up since it is so nonsensical. One cannot "return" something that one never possessed.
<< <i><< In the real business world, the negotiation occurs before the commitment is made, not after. >>
We can tell you don't have a lot of real world business experience, particularly in the corporate world. >>
We can tell that you don't have a clue. I've been in the business world, including corporate, all my life. In fact, I've owned my own business for 17 years next month. In my world, commitments are kept.
Refusal to accept shipment may or may not be considered a return... but that is not what happened here. In business, the financial transaction is complete BEFORE that shipment was refused. The title had transfered, so the buyer could execute a return. In this instance, title never transfered, so a return policy was not available, nor in effect. It seems very simple to me, and a lot of others. I agree with Russ 100%. This is not a gray area, and I would not want to do business with anyone who thinks it is a gray area. The payment should have been made.
<< <i>I take it most of you don't work in the real business world. I do and things like this come up all the time. Some are accepted, some are negotiated and others are declined. That is the way the real business world works. >>
In the real business world, the negotiation occurs before the commitment is made, not after.
Russ, NCNE >>
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Negotiations occur all the time after a commitment has been made. If you are so stone cold to your customers, I am surprised you have survived 17 years.
Coins101, just remember, the acceptance of those negotiations (which can happen anytime) are purely at the whim of the SELLER when done after the fact. Negotiations done before selling are mutual. You have given away your greatest asset when negotiating after the sale! So yes, they can happen, but you are not coming from a position of power, but one of seeking a method of reparations for potential damage done the seller. The seller owns acceptance after the fact solely. Did the seller ever contact you and tell you what they thought about all of this?
<< <i>If you are so stone cold to your customers, I am surprised you have survived 17 years. >>
Again, we have an example of a rebel without a clue. If you go back to one of my very first posts you'll note that I let a bidder off the hook just last week under circumstances very similar to what you described. I have done so many times. My willingness to grant leeway to a customer does not, however, mitigate the fact that it is wrong to commit to a deal and then back out. This is a simple matter of fundamental ethics.
<< << If you are so stone cold to your customers, I am surprised you have survived 17 years. >>
These guys don't consider Ebay buyers to be customers. If they hose the suckers then they expect the guy to take it. Who cares if he's satisfied as long as they made money. There's no concern for the other guy. They only care about the money. This is why they sell on Ebay, they couldn't survive in real business with an attitude like this. >>
I was trying to be less hostile but I put it back for you. BTW it wasn't just you, it was for all those who wanted to hold him to it.
<< <i><< If you are so stone cold to your customers, I am surprised you have survived 17 years. >>
These guys don't consider Ebay buyers to be customers. If they hose the suckers then they expect the guy to take it. Who cares if he's satisfied as long as they made money. There's no concern for the other guy. They only care about the money. This is why they sell on Ebay, they couldn't survive in real business with an attitude like this. >>
Are you really this stupid? eBay didn't even exist when I went in to business.
<< <i>Coins101, just remember, the acceptance of those negotiations (which can happen anytime) are purely at the whim of the SELLER when done after the fact. Negotiations done before selling are mutual. You have given away your greatest asset when negotiating after the sale! So yes, they can happen, but you are not coming from a position of power, but one of seeking a method of reparations for potential damage done the seller. The seller owns acceptance after the fact solely. Did the seller ever contact you and tell you what they thought about all of this? >>
I completely agree with you. I have said several times it was up to the seller to decide what to do and I would abide with his decision. No time did I say I refused to pay. Everyone keeps assuming that but that is not the case.
Shortly after winning the bid, I received an email telling me the bag did not appear to be a mint sealed bag. It appeared to have been re-sewed. That is why I had second thoughts and asked to be let out of the transaction. But, the old bag guru above said it looks fine to him, so maybe it is.
The seller did contact me and said he can go either way.
<< <i>I take it most of you don't work in the real business world. I do and things like this come up all the time. Some are accepted, some are negotiated and others are declined. That is the way the real business world works. >>
In the real business world, the negotiation occurs before the commitment is made, not after.
Russ, NCNE >>
I disagree, Russ. In the real world that I live, there are post-agreement negotiations all of the time. Sure, they can be tough and contentious - and are not the norm - but they happen and are subject to further negotiation and settlement. The deal is never done until the transaction is complete - and in this case, it wasn't.
If I deal with someone - individual or corporation - and they are consistently unwilling to follow through on their committments without trying to renegotiate... Eventually I flush 'em. Often it depends on how much it will cost me in time and hassle.
<< <i>Coins101, just remember, the acceptance of those negotiations (which can happen anytime) are purely at the whim of the SELLER when done after the fact. Negotiations done before selling are mutual. You have given away your greatest asset when negotiating after the sale! So yes, they can happen, but you are not coming from a position of power, but one of seeking a method of reparations for potential damage done the seller. The seller owns acceptance after the fact solely. Did the seller ever contact you and tell you what they thought about all of this? >>
I completely agree with you. I have said several times it was up to the seller to decide what to do and I would abide with his decision. No time did I say I refused to pay. Everyone keeps assuming that but that is not the case.
Shortly after winning the bid, I received an email telling me the bag did not appear to be a mint sealed bag. It appeared to have been re-sewed. That is way I had second thoughts and asked to be let out of the transaction. But, the old bag guru above said it looks fine to him, so maybe it is.
The seller did contact me and said he can go either way. >>
That is the problem with these scenarios: they are hypotheticals to US, but only real to the people involved. As to the original question, no it is not wrong to not want to pay. I have not wanted to pay many times. Is it wrong to negotiate? Nope, not that either. It is only wrong to not pay if the seller insists that the transaction go through. Then, yes, you have the pain of recieving and mailing it back again, but they would own the right to make you do that (or take the neg, I suppose). I'm not trying to play any moral highground or say you did anything wrong. I am simply playing out the hypothetical situation (to me, since I have only some data) to its logical conclusion. Anyhow, its all been a fun excercise in hair splitting, if nothing else. Cheers.
If I was the seller, this wouldn't bother me. Just pay my listing fee, my final value fee, and a small 20% "re-stocking" charge and I'll even leave you positive feedback.
Comments
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>When was the last time you heard of an actual case of someone going to court to sue for eBay non-performance? >>
A couple weeks ago. It was on The People's Court. I swear!
<< <i>
<< <i>When was the last time you heard of an actual case of someone going to court to sue for eBay non-performance? >>
A couple weeks ago. It was on The People's Court. I swear!
Guilty! You are wrong, wrong, wrong!
Say what???
<< <i>I'm I wrong for not wanting to paying?
Say what??? >>
Your edit helped. But you're only halfway there.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Now, that's not to say that if I was a seller I wouldn't block you from buying from me in the future just to avoid future headaches. Still, that's about the only thing I'd worry about doing. >>
Pendragon- you say this out of one side of your mouth. Why would you consider blocking him if the OP had done nothing wrong?
<< <i> A no questions asked return policy does not give a buyer the right to place bids willy nilly and then breach the deal simply because they changed their mind.
Russ, NCNE >>
<< <i>Um, that's exactly the right that it gives the bidder. If you wanted to put conditions on the return policy (e.g. "Returns accepted only for damaged or misrepresented items") then the buyer wouldn't have the right to return a coin because they changed their mind. Notice I didn't say "breach the deal" - the deal was, "if you decide you want to return the item, we'll accept your return no questions asked." pendragon >>
What a crop of crap, he would have to receive the item before he had a return privilege.
<< <i> Looks like I'm in the minority, but ….. >>
This is probably the only thing that you said that makes any sense. Glad most people on eBay or these Boards are not like you.
Your last post just proved my point, that you have no substance: You wrote, “You know what? I could explain myself to you. Or I could tell you you're an ass and to shut your flapping pie hole. I'll leave it up to you to decide which of the two I decided on. ” But when I tell you that your argument is weak, and if you could have defended your position, you would have. The best that you can come back with is “Anyone with a brain could read my posts and understands my position. Anyone who can't be bothered to is just spouting BS anyway. As for your opinion of my intelligence level, I could care less. Buzz off, tiny little man...you're not worth my time. “ You have what I call “little man syndrome”, are you that much of a joke in person as you are hiding behind your keyboard? I would wait for your reply, but you have proven to be lacking in common sense or the ability to communicate anything of substance or intelligence.
<< <i>You should honor your bid. People who bid and then flake out really hack me off. These jerks simply do not want to take responsibility for their actions. That you would ask this kind of stupid question in a forum shows a total lack of class on your part. >>
Typical over-reaction. If the OP never intended to honor his bid, he never would have entered into communication
with the seller, after the end of the auction, period. Then, the seller would have to go the whole nine yards, reporting,
investigation, etc. to get his listing fees back. Quite different from this actual scenario.
Calling postings stupid is a typical hack method of dealing with the subject matter. No real thought behind it, no
substance to it. The OP had no intention of not honoring his bid, IMHO, if something else could not be worked out.
Let's hang them all, and sort out the facts later. As if no one ever had second thoughts about their purchases...
Hard to imagine, all of the perfect people, who never make mistakes or have second thoughts about anything,
that frequent this forum.
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
Pies with flapping ass holes and tiny little men with little man syndromes...balif wack his tiny little pp
You guys are hilarious!!!
<< <i>I'll jump in with the minority here and say you had every right to request to cancel the deal. A "no questions asked" return policy is carte blanche to return the item for ANY reason. Not just because you reviewed and declined the coin (as Russ said). As a seller I'd rather someone offer to cover the relisting fees rather than having to hassle with the sale/return if the buyer were certain they'd be returning it under my policy anyway. Your right to ask though doesn't mean the seller is obligated to accept your offer. If they want to force the charade of sending and returning then that's what you should do. IMO. >>
"Business101", not just Coins101. One of the reasons I have 100% Positive feedback is to use the common sense approach quoted above.
Doug
But let me add,
I have won an ebay auction with a mistake bid.
In that, I wanted to bid $70.00 on the item, Im not sure if I left out the (.), or if I hit (,) instead. But the bid posted as $700.00, or 7000.00.
The Second place bidder drove the finish price up to about $150.00, on a 1/10 oz $5 Gold Eagle.
I certainly had no intention of going more than the $70.00 bid I ment to make. I did contact the seller and explain my problem. And asked them to treat it as a return, and cancel the sale, without shipping it. I offered to pay for the trouble, relisting fee, or whatever.
I also told them up front, if they could not see there way clear to do this for me. I would pay the price. It is a contract, and commitment after all.
I did have another coin from the same seller ordered the same day. My seller was good to me. Let me off on that one. Possitive feedback both ways. All was good.
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
<< <i>John admit it - you don't know what your talking about. >>
How profound - not.
I am underwhelmed by your powers of logic, and persuasion.
I guess every village needs its idiots...
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll jump in with the minority here and say you had every right to request to cancel the deal. A "no questions asked" return policy is carte blanche to return the item for ANY reason. Not just because you reviewed and declined the coin (as Russ said). As a seller I'd rather someone offer to cover the relisting fees rather than having to hassle with the sale/return if the buyer were certain they'd be returning it under my policy anyway. Your right to ask though doesn't mean the seller is obligated to accept your offer. If they want to force the charade of sending and returning then that's what you should do. IMO. >>
"Business101", not just Coins101. One of the reasons I have 100% Positive feedback is to use the common sense approach quoted above.
Doug >>
Yes, there really appears to be a bunch of members without ANY common sense. I hate to tell all you hangmen out there, but the world is not black and white. I had a SIMPLE request of the seller and it was up to him to decide. It is like having someone buy two coins from you and ask to have them shipped together (after the fact) even though it is not in your listing. The seller can accept it or not. Based upon your responses, it seems all of you would refuse to ship the coins together because it was not in the listing.
When I posted this "stupid question", I did it kind of tongue and cheek ("flame suit deployed") knowing it was going to cause a controversy and bring out the flakes that THINK they are so perfect. Like johnsim03 said, "I guess every village needs its idiots...” Boy did we hit the jackpot here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With that said, I ask the moderators to lock this thread down.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll jump in with the minority here and say you had every right to request to cancel the deal. A "no questions asked" return policy is carte blanche to return the item for ANY reason. Not just because you reviewed and declined the coin (as Russ said). As a seller I'd rather someone offer to cover the relisting fees rather than having to hassle with the sale/return if the buyer were certain they'd be returning it under my policy anyway. Your right to ask though doesn't mean the seller is obligated to accept your offer. If they want to force the charade of sending and returning then that's what you should do. IMO. >>
"Business101", not just Coins101. One of the reasons I have 100% Positive feedback is to use the common sense approach quoted above.
Doug >>
Yes, there really appears to be a bunch of members without ANY common sense. I hate to tell all you hangmen out there, but the world is not black and white. I had a SIMPLE request of the seller and it was up to him to decide. It is like having someone buy two coins from you and ask to have them shipped together (after the fact) even though it is not in your listing. The seller can accept it or not. Based upon your responses, it seems all of you would refuse to ship the coins together because it was not in the listing.
When I posted this "stupid question", I did it kind of tongue and cheek ("flame suit deployed") knowing it was going to cause a controversy and bring out the flakes that THINK they are so perfect. Like johnsim03 said, "I guess every village needs its idiots...” Boy did we hit the jackpot here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With that said, I ask the moderators to lock this thread down. >>
Why? So you can have the last word? You said yourself you were prepared for controversy.
But it will be interesting to see if they comply. Maybe you're one of the members with clout.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll jump in with the minority here and say you had every right to request to cancel the deal. A "no questions asked" return policy is carte blanche to return the item for ANY reason. Not just because you reviewed and declined the coin (as Russ said). As a seller I'd rather someone offer to cover the relisting fees rather than having to hassle with the sale/return if the buyer were certain they'd be returning it under my policy anyway. Your right to ask though doesn't mean the seller is obligated to accept your offer. If they want to force the charade of sending and returning then that's what you should do. IMO. >>
"Business101", not just Coins101. One of the reasons I have 100% Positive feedback is to use the common sense approach quoted above.
Doug >>
Yes, there really appears to be a bunch of members without ANY common sense. I hate to tell all you hangmen out there, but the world is not black and white. I had a SIMPLE request of the seller and it was up to him to decide. It is like having someone buy two coins from you and ask to have them shipped together (after the fact) even though it is not in your listing. The seller can accept it or not. Based upon your responses, it seems all of you would refuse to ship the coins together because it was not in the listing.
When I posted this "stupid question", I did it kind of tongue and cheek ("flame suit deployed") knowing it was going to cause a controversy and bring out the flakes that THINK they are so perfect. Like johnsim03 said, "I guess every village needs its idiots...” Boy did we hit the jackpot here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With that said, I ask the moderators to lock this thread down. >>
They need to lock you down!
No it is not like someone buying two coins , and asking for combined shipping.
Most of us will combine shipping if someone buys more than one item.
I am not worried about combined shipping, but YOU buying two products and then justifying why you do not
have to go through with the purchase.
It is called taking responsibility!
<< <i>I would say due to your reneging on the deal and even though it wasn't shipped you are responsible for shipping charges both ways... >>
So he should pay the post office for return shipping even though he is not shipping anything? That doesn't make any sense at all.
He COMMITTED to buy something. What makes ebay work is that people follow through on these commitments. A return policy can only be enacted upon making a purchase. By not paying in the first place, a purchase was never completed. So, you have to follow the order of things and play them out as proper.
Agree to buy.
Pay for.
Inspect.
Return if you like.
Sure, it sounds picky to make someone go through the steps... after all, why not just take the shortcut... well, because the shortcut bypasses the proscribed process. It sort of all about civilized behavior. There is a reason we have rules, and don't break them. There is a reason we follow the law, even though 'no one will be hurt if I break it this one time'.
The 'spirit' of the return policy is to allow one to inspect and ensure that what they got met the promise of what was described. It is not intended to allow someone to simply have a change of heart or buyers remorse before even completing the contract. It is not always easy to simply push an item to the next bidder (I move on after losing an auction and bid on another, so often am no longer free to accept a second chance offer).
I don't get it. The OP has a commitment to buy. He needs to accept this. The seller then will have a commitment to return should the OP chose to do so, and should accept this. If you are going to play on ebay, you need to play by the rules, and accept the responsibility for your bids. Suck it up. I've gone a bit crazy and bid way too much in the heat of the moment... not the sellers problem. Mine. Enforcible or not, it is a contract! Respect the contract.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll jump in with the minority here and say you had every right to request to cancel the deal. A "no questions asked" return policy is carte blanche to return the item for ANY reason. Not just because you reviewed and declined the coin (as Russ said). As a seller I'd rather someone offer to cover the relisting fees rather than having to hassle with the sale/return if the buyer were certain they'd be returning it under my policy anyway. Your right to ask though doesn't mean the seller is obligated to accept your offer. If they want to force the charade of sending and returning then that's what you should do. IMO. >>
"Business101", not just Coins101. One of the reasons I have 100% Positive feedback is to use the common sense approach quoted above.
Doug >>
Yes, there really appears to be a bunch of members without ANY common sense. I hate to tell all you hangmen out there, but the world is not black and white. I had a SIMPLE request of the seller and it was up to him to decide. It is like having someone buy two coins from you and ask to have them shipped together (after the fact) even though it is not in your listing. The seller can accept it or not. Based upon your responses, it seems all of you would refuse to ship the coins together because it was not in the listing.
When I posted this "stupid question", I did it kind of tongue and cheek ("flame suit deployed") knowing it was going to cause a controversy and bring out the flakes that THINK they are so perfect. Like johnsim03 said, "I guess every village needs its idiots...” Boy did we hit the jackpot here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With that said, I ask the moderators to lock this thread down. >>
Why would the moderators lock this thread? It's a good lesson for people like you.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
Like I said, it was a SIMPLE request and it was up to the seller to accept it or not. It has happened to me a couple times and I was glad not to go through the motions of packaging and shipping the item KNOWING it was going to be returned. The buyers made me more than whole (no damages on my part) and I ended up selling the items the next week for more money. But, it was up to me, the seller to accept the request. If I did not want to, I would not. If this seller did not want to accept my request, I would pay. It is simple and straight forward.
I even had one buyer pay for the item except the shipping and told me to keep it (the shipping and handling was about the same price as the cost of the item). He had changed his mind. He said he could find it cheaper at a B&M store. I accepted his payment and re-listed it. It sold. Again, I suppose most of you would jump up on your soap box and DEMAND the shipping and handling charges so you could ship it. After all, the "contract" is not complete until the buyer receives the item.
Yes, there really appears to be a bunch of members without ANY common sense. I hate to tell all you hangmen out there, but the world is not black and white. I had a SIMPLE request of the seller and it was up to him to decide. It is like having someone buy two coins from you and ask to have them shipped together (after the fact) even though it is not in your listing. The seller can accept it or not. Based upon your responses, it seems all of you would refuse to ship the coins together because it was not in the listing.
A "no questions asked" return policy is carte blanche to return the item for ANY reason. It should not be just some marketing ploy to get more bidders. If the seller didn't mean it then he shouldn't state it. If the seller put it in the listing then you are well within your right to cancel without owing him a cent or expecting any neg. The fact you offered him anything shows you have some class and was a good thing to do.
Try not to listen to the insulting types who have grown up with the usual Internet chatroom manners. They post a lot in forums because in real life they can't keep friends. They lack people skills.
<< <i>He COMMITTED to buy something. >>
WRONG!!!!!
He committed to an agreement. Part of the agreement was a right to return the item "no questions asked". This was his choice. He fulfilled his committment. End of deal.
The answer, absent having access to the seller and understanding what their take on this is, YES. You agreed to buy, you should pay. It is a little late to determine you made a mistake after the auction closed. That is using the system, and that sort of behavior will utlimately cause the downfall of systems like ebay. Ebay is solely a trust based system. You TRUST that people will fulfill their end of the bargain, and they TRUST that you will fulfill yours. When this trust starts to break down, the system falls apart.
It is easy to point out how any rational seller would negotiate with the buyer... but that is always situational, and we have no way of knowing if it is reasonable. So, the buyer put in a bid. The buyer should pay. It is not reasonable to talk about what WE as the seller would do to be fair and rational, or what we have done. We don't know the situation of the seller in question here. We can't take any facts into evidence on that side of the house. So, we go with the question asked in its purest form.
To me, it is a simple question of right and wrong. Not paying is wrong. Paying as promised is right.
<< <i>He COMMITTED to buy something. >>
WRONG!!!!!
He committed to an agreement. Part of the agreement was a right to return the item "no questions asked". This was his choice. He fulfilled his committment. End of deal. >>
He commited to an agreement? Huh? In the real world, when you place a bid, the commitment is to complete a financial transaction for the amount you offer, for the item offered. That is buying something. That is the transaction.
The return is an agreement that is available post transaction. You can not return something that has not been recieved.
The seller did not put in the listing that the transaction can be cancelled at any time. They said the item can be returned. Pure definition of return is:
-To go or come back, as to an earlier condition or place.
-To revert in speech, thought, or practice.
-To revert to a former owner.
-To answer or respond.
I think that to revert to a former owner, something has to move to a new owner... so you have to take ownership, which you do upon paying for an item. You can't walk up to the return counter in a store and return an item you don't own... it makes no sense. Ebay is a forum for forming intent, and carrying it through. Terms and conditions for returns are triggered AFTER a person takes ownership. You can't have any RIGHT as an owner, until you are an owner.
<< <i>I take it most of you don't work in the real business world. I do and things like this come up all the time. Some are accepted, some are negotiated and others are declined. That is the way the real business world works. >>
In the real business world, the negotiation occurs before the commitment is made, not after.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>You TRUST that people will fulfill their end of the bargain, and they TRUST that you will fulfill yours >>
He DID fulfill his end of the bargain. The SELLER set the terms. One of the terms was a "no questions asked" return policy. (hopefully)The seller put that term in the deal because he wanted a "satisfied buyer." This buyer was not satisfied.
Those of you who sell on Ebay and only wish to "screw" the biggest fish and not give them a way out should not use these terms. If you only want the most money and don't give a da*m about the others guys satisfaction then say, NO RETURNS. Myself, I don't want a buyer who wishes he hadn't bought from me. I don't need the money that bad.
Stores want satified customers. How many of you take an item back later because you didn't really want it or found it cheaper elsewhere?The right of return was a part of the agreement.
<< <i>In the real business world, the negotiation occurs before the commitment is made, not after. >>
Thats not really true in business particularly in the corporate world.
<< <i>One of the terms was a "no questions asked" return policy. >>
I'm surprised that justification keeps coming up since it is so nonsensical. One cannot "return" something that one never possessed.
<< <i><< In the real business world, the negotiation occurs before the commitment is made, not after. >>
We can tell you don't have a lot of real world business experience, particularly in the corporate world. >>
We can tell that you don't have a clue. I've been in the business world, including corporate, all my life. In fact, I've owned my own business for 17 years next month. In my world, commitments are kept.
Russ, NCNE
In the legal/business world the refusal to accept shipment IS considered a return.
It seems very simple to me, and a lot of others. I agree with Russ 100%.
This is not a gray area, and I would not want to do business with anyone who thinks it is a gray area.
The payment should have been made.
<< <i>
<< <i>I take it most of you don't work in the real business world. I do and things like this come up all the time. Some are accepted, some are negotiated and others are declined. That is the way the real business world works. >>
In the real business world, the negotiation occurs before the commitment is made, not after.
Russ, NCNE >>
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Negotiations occur all the time after a commitment has been made. If you are so stone cold to your customers, I am surprised you have survived 17 years.
You have given away your greatest asset when negotiating after the sale!
So yes, they can happen, but you are not coming from a position of power, but one of seeking a method of reparations for potential damage done the seller. The seller owns acceptance after the fact solely.
Did the seller ever contact you and tell you what they thought about all of this?
<< <i>If you are so stone cold to your customers, I am surprised you have survived 17 years. >>
Again, we have an example of a rebel without a clue. If you go back to one of my very first posts you'll note that I let a bidder off the hook just last week under circumstances very similar to what you described. I have done so many times. My willingness to grant leeway to a customer does not, however, mitigate the fact that it is wrong to commit to a deal and then back out. This is a simple matter of fundamental ethics.
Russ, NCNE
<< << If you are so stone cold to your customers, I am surprised you have survived 17 years. >>
These guys don't consider Ebay buyers to be customers. If they hose the suckers then they expect the guy to take it. Who cares if he's satisfied as long as they made money. There's no concern for the other guy. They only care about the money. This is why they sell on Ebay, they couldn't survive in real business with an attitude like this. >>
I was trying to be less hostile but I put it back for you. BTW it wasn't just you, it was for all those who wanted to hold him to it.
Actually the price on the bag was a good one.
<< <i><< If you are so stone cold to your customers, I am surprised you have survived 17 years. >>
These guys don't consider Ebay buyers to be customers. If they hose the suckers then they expect the guy to take it. Who cares if he's satisfied as long as they made money. There's no concern for the other guy. They only care about the money. This is why they sell on Ebay, they couldn't survive in real business with an attitude like this. >>
Are you really this stupid? eBay didn't even exist when I went in to business.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Coins101, just remember, the acceptance of those negotiations (which can happen anytime) are purely at the whim of the SELLER when done after the fact. Negotiations done before selling are mutual.
You have given away your greatest asset when negotiating after the sale!
So yes, they can happen, but you are not coming from a position of power, but one of seeking a method of reparations for potential damage done the seller. The seller owns acceptance after the fact solely.
Did the seller ever contact you and tell you what they thought about all of this? >>
I completely agree with you. I have said several times it was up to the seller to decide what to do and I would abide with his decision. No time did I say I refused to pay. Everyone keeps assuming that but that is not the case.
Shortly after winning the bid, I received an email telling me the bag did not appear to be a mint sealed bag. It appeared to have been re-sewed. That is why I had second thoughts and asked to be let out of the transaction. But, the old bag guru above said it looks fine to him, so maybe it is.
The seller did contact me and said he can go either way.
<< <i>
<< <i>I take it most of you don't work in the real business world. I do and things like this come up all the time. Some are accepted, some are negotiated and others are declined. That is the way the real business world works. >>
In the real business world, the negotiation occurs before the commitment is made, not after.
Russ, NCNE >>
I disagree, Russ. In the real world that I live, there are post-agreement negotiations all of the time. Sure, they can be tough and contentious - and are not the norm - but they happen and are subject to further negotiation and settlement. The deal is never done until the transaction is complete - and in this case, it wasn't.
If I deal with someone - individual or corporation - and they are consistently unwilling to follow through on their committments without trying to renegotiate... Eventually I flush 'em. Often it depends on how much it will cost me in time and hassle.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
<< <i>Coins101, just remember, the acceptance of those negotiations (which can happen anytime) are purely at the whim of the SELLER when done after the fact. Negotiations done before selling are mutual.
You have given away your greatest asset when negotiating after the sale!
So yes, they can happen, but you are not coming from a position of power, but one of seeking a method of reparations for potential damage done the seller. The seller owns acceptance after the fact solely.
Did the seller ever contact you and tell you what they thought about all of this? >>
I completely agree with you. I have said several times it was up to the seller to decide what to do and I would abide with his decision. No time did I say I refused to pay. Everyone keeps assuming that but that is not the case.
Shortly after winning the bid, I received an email telling me the bag did not appear to be a mint sealed bag. It appeared to have been re-sewed. That is way I had second thoughts and asked to be let out of the transaction. But, the old bag guru above said it looks fine to him, so maybe it is.
The seller did contact me and said he can go either way. >>
That is the problem with these scenarios: they are hypotheticals to US, but only real to the people involved. As to the original question, no it is not wrong to not want to pay. I have not wanted to pay many times. Is it wrong to negotiate? Nope, not that either. It is only wrong to not pay if the seller insists that the transaction go through. Then, yes, you have the pain of recieving and mailing it back again, but they would own the right to make you do that (or take the neg, I suppose). I'm not trying to play any moral highground or say you did anything wrong. I am simply playing out the hypothetical situation (to me, since I have only some data) to its logical conclusion.
Anyhow, its all been a fun excercise in hair splitting, if nothing else.
Cheers.