China Panda Coins - NGC vs PCGS

OnlyBuffalos

There seem to be a great many more China Panda coins in NGC holders compared to the number in PCGS holders based on the population reports. Is the reason for this due to NGC having a registry for Pandas while PCGS does not, or is there some other explanation? Thanks.

ajaan

I would think the reason is:

NGC - quick turn around time
PCGS - very slow turn around time

Overall, I think NGC has more World coins graded than PCGS.

bobking

<< <i>I would think the reason is:

NGC - quick turn around time
PCGS - very slow turn around time

Overall, I think NGC has more World coins graded than PCGS. >>



I agree with you. In addition, NGC usually grades higher scores on world coins and the fee of NGC is a little lower.

goldisgood

Also ANA member can submit direct to NGC. PCGS must go thru dealer or join their club $$$

OnlyBuffalos

NGC usually grades higher scores on world coins


Does this mean NGC is looser on grades than PCGS for world coins? Thanks.

bobking

<< <i>NGC usually grades higher scores on world coins


Does this mean NGC is looser on grades than PCGS for world coins? Thanks. >>



Yes, it does. Sometimes NGC MS66 is just equal to PCGS MS65 on world coins, especially on Chinese coins. That's the reason why we see more and more NGC graded coins in recent Heritage auctions.

ajaan

<< <i>That's the reason why we see more and more NGC graded coins in recent Heritage auctions. >>


I don't necessarily agree with this. I honestly believe the reason you see more World coins in NGC holder than PCGS is the turnaround times. NGC has very quick turnnaround times for World coins, PCGS doesn't. Since there usually isn't a great price jump between Unc. grades for World coins (with perhaps the exception of Canadian coins), the fast turnaround times is a great bonus for dealers. Why wait 2-4+ months when you can have the coins back in your hand in 3 weeks with NGC?

Look at NEN's inventory. Most of the coins are NGC graded. I really don't think it is because NGC grades looser than PCGS. Maybe someone from NEN will say why they prefer NGC. The sooner you can get the coins into inventory the better off you are.

SYRACUSIAN

I agree with ajaan.


There are a few exceptions, where bidders will pay more money for a PCGS coin, such as Switzerland, Canada, etc, but overall NGC is really the world coin leading service, the inventories of many good dealers are the proof of this. Besides, PCGS often has great difficulties with many countries and series, just because of their lack of experience.

ajaan

OMG!!!! someone agreed with me. Is there a full moon or something?

Preussen

In general, I believe that NGC is too loose on world coins. I've found this to be the case particularly on the latest-generation slabs, but I've seen several older examples as well. There are certainly exceptions, such as a Prussian Proof that I and others figured for minimum 67, and it came back 65 , but in the same batch was one I figured for 64 shot 65, and it came back 66 . I have ordered and returned several NGC slabbed coins recently because I felt they just didn't make the grade. Of course, we can all cite similar examples from other TPGs, but I just seem to have seen it a lot lately with NGC. Personally, I just don’t understand this so-called “market grading” concept.

I currently have three NGC slabbed coins for sale on ebay. On two of them I felt the need to state that the coins (while still very nice) are overgraded...I'll probably lose money on them, but I sleep well. - Preussen

ebay linky (sneaky ssp )

SYRACUSIAN

I believe that NGC's black period, the one when they really overgraded is over, it's these slabs with the KM numbers on them, I don't know if they used them for other countries as well, but when I see a Greek coin in an NGC holder with a KM number, I deduct a couple of grades. This lasted about two years. Now, they can go through very strict periods, or more loose, but I wouldn't say that they overgrade. Oh well, I don't get to handle that many coins anyway, maybe we should hear what others have to say, especially people who sell lots of NGC slabs on ebay, they must have a reason for this preference, other than the turnaround. Because the turnaround, if you submit coins regularly, say once a month, you're gonna wait 3 months the first time, but the next orders are going to be coming in regularly, month after month, it's just that all of them will have a 3 month delay compared to NGC.

Preussen

I sent in a 19th Century Prussian coin (last year, I think) from a German auction. The coin was a proof-like "Erstabschlag" (First Strike) that I graded MS64 PL. NGC graded it Proof 68 . Yes, they overgrade. - Preussen

edited because I hit "reply" instead of "preview."

ajaan

I sent a Canadian 1870 25c into NGC a couple months ago. I thought it graded F12, they graded it G-6. So NGC undergrades? Too small of sample for me to make a judgement. There is so much variety in World coins you are always going to have some coins be overgraded or undergraded. This is true for all TPGs. Consistancy is the key. As far as I know, there are no published grading guides for all World coins.

Preussen

<< <i>So NGC undergrades? >>


No, they're perfect...it must just be me. - Preussen

ajaan

What so many people fail to understand is each grading service grades to their standards. NGC has their grading standards, PCGS has theirs, ICCS has theirs, and so forth. You buy a NGC graded coin, it is graded to their standard, same with all other TPGs. You have to realize this when buying or submitting coins. I never did like this 'overgraded' or 'undergraded' argument. It is an opinion. Once you know which company graded the coin, you know it is their opinion. Decide if you like it or not, that's the key. If you think NGC overgrades, don't buy NGC graded coins or don't submit to them. The same for PCGS, ICCS, ICG, ACG, etc. If you want a full red Canadian cent, don't buy ICCS RED cents. It's as simple as that. It is the issue of consistancy in grading, for a particular TPG, which is a bigger question to me.

Enjoy the hobby people.

bobking

I think there is no difference between NGC and PCGS for coins under MS63, but NGC sometimes grades higher scores than PCGS does on world coins over MS63. I don't believe turnaround times is an important thing to Heritage Auctions since there are about 4 months between two Heritage Long Beach auctions. Maybe it's important to ebay dealers.

bobking

For Chinese coins, we can see dealers from ROC, Hongkong and PRC usually sell PCGS graded coins while American dealers usually sell NGC graded coins. American dealers fully understand the standards and choose the looser company. I believe PCGS has higher reputation in Asia since it is stricter. BTW, be careful on NNC. I found many fake world coins in NNC slabs.

bobking

<< <i>What so many people fail to understand is each grading service grades to their standards. NGC has their grading standards, PCGS has theirs, ICCS has theirs, and so forth. You buy a NGC graded coin, it is graded to their standard, same with all other TPGs. You have to realize this when buying or submitting coins. I never did like this 'overgraded' or 'undergraded' argument. It is an opinion. Once you know which company graded the coin, you know it is their opinion. Decide if you like it or not, that's the key. If you think NGC overgrades, don't buy NGC graded coins or don't submit to them. The same for PCGS, ICCS, ICG, ACG, etc. If you want a full red Canadian cent, don't buy ICCS RED cents. It's as simple as that. It is the issue of consistancy in grading, for a particular TPG, which is a bigger question to me.

Enjoy the hobby people. >>



Right, the most important thing to a TPG is consistancy. When I am deciding to buy a coin, I usually don't care if it is overgraded or not, I just try to bid the right price.

folderholder

Yesterday I got back a Mexican gold coin graded MS64 by PCGS. I had a chance to compare it side-by-side with the same coin graded MS65 by NGC. The PCGS MS64 was clearly the superior coin. There were several significant bag marks on the NGC coin versus none on the PCGS coin. My impression was the NGC coin was overgraded by a couple of points in relation to the PCGS example.

Doogy

<< <i>Yesterday I got back a Mexican gold coin graded MS64 by PCGS. I had a chance to compare it side-by-side with the same coin graded MS65 by NGC. The PCGS MS64 was clearly the superior coin. There were several significant bag marks on the NGC coin versus none on the PCGS coin. My impression was the NGC coin was overgraded by a couple of points in relation to the PCGS example. >>



I think we can discuss this topic 'till the sun goes down, as that seems to happen often on the liteside forum. Small sample groups of coins are too tough to get an accurate picture of overall grading, IMO. For instance, here is my newest Hamburg (MS64 NGC). In hand (and even in these pics), it is clearly undergraded by at least a point. THis one replaced my PCGS MS65 which had nice fields, but the devices looked like someone put it in a bag of other coins and shook it (but was lucky enough to only ding the designs). Much like Steve, I wanted an 'honest' grade on it, so I sent it to NGC where it got the MS63 that it deserved. For my money, i like NGC's turnaround time, consistant (to me anyway) grading and customer service. They have graded far more world coins than PCGS, so i think they established their grading criteria earlier.

i guess we can discuss this whole subject till we're blue in the face, as happens often on the US forum, but it won't change the way either company looks at the world coin that is presented to them for grading.

TommyB

I just had 4 pandas graded by ngc. They are on the way back to me within 7 days of them receiving them.

nencoin

<< <i>Look at NEN's inventory. Most of the coins are NGC graded. I really don't think it is because NGC grades looser than PCGS. Maybe someone from NEN will say why they prefer NGC. The sooner you can get the coins into inventory the better off you are. >>



Quicker turnaround times....period.

folderholder

So does it make any sense to resubmit my PCGS 64 to NGC? Will that make a difference to its value? The NGC MS65 recently brought $3500 at auction and the one I have looks a point or two better.

coinpictures

Hey Dimitri, what time period are you referring to when NGC placed KM numbers on the slabs, recently or a long time ago? The Baden Death 2M I just got from NEN has the KM number on the slab, but it's an old "fattie" holder. I think it's exemplary for the grade (as nice as the PCGS 66 I have); far from deducting points.

(of course this is a sample size of "1"... could be the exception that disproves the rule. )

From what I've bought and sold over the last 3 years I don't think that one can universally say "NGC overgrades". However, I do find NGC to be very inconsistent in their grades of the same type. I think that with classic material NGC is overly generous when grading proofs. Conversely, I think they are incredibly stingy with CAMEO, PL, and RB vs. BN designations.

On MS65 and above I actually like old-holder ANACS coins more than NGC or PCGS. In my opinion they are VERY conservative at the high end.

One other thing to consider when comparing NGC to PCGS on Darkside material: You're going to encounter at least 5x more NGC coins than PCGS, so the odds of being able to find poorly graded NGC coins is much higher...

IloiloKano

Another reason Heritage uses NGC is because they can send an entire lot from an Estate to NCS and have every coin slabbed, either by NCS or NGC. They did that with the Jules Reiver Collection, as he collected Early American Dollar die varieties (and halves as well), and MANY of his examples would have been body bagged by PCGS. Instead, NCS assigned a "Details Grade" and noted the problem, such "Improperly Cleaned", "Bent" etc. NCS would assess each coin, "conserve" it if warranted, then if it could be legitimately graded by NGC, they would pass it on to them at no extra charge. This would solve a lot of difficulties when Heritage gets enormous lots housed in vinyl flips, as NCS would remove the PVC, then pass most of them on to NGC.

Of course, quicker turn-around, (previously stated as a reason), is also a plus to a major auction house.

MR168

2-4 months? Does anyone know why it takes so long for PCGS to grade a world coin?
Do they really lack of world coin grading experience ? I have a few imperial chinese coins
need to be graded, most of them are common, but 1 of them is very rare. should I choose
PCGS or NGC?

ajaan

<< <i>Why wait 2-4+ months when you can have the coins back in your hand in 3 weeks with NGC? >>


I wrote that in Sept 2006. Since that time PCGS' turnaroound times have been quicker. May last order, in February 2007 took 4 weeks.

Doogy

that is certainly an improvement, Don. glad to hear they are making strides at improving turnaround. My last submission to NGC was less than 7 days turnaround, and that was world economy; pretty impressive

Kryten2001

<< <i>Does this mean NGC is looser on grades than PCGS for world coins? Thanks. >>



I've found NGC to be extremely poor in grading Australian/English sovereigns in anything less than MS62/3.