The good news is I am told the coin will be available for all to see at the Teletrade table at the Long Beach show in about (10) days. Don't expect to see anything other than an essentially flawless coin -PCGS has been very careful with copper grades over the past year; the fact they put the "politics" aside and graded a perfect business strike MS70 Lincoln cent for a casual collector who submitted it gets a thumbs up from me.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I do not care for this TPG-generated hype. I prefer coins that are fundamentally scarce in any condition, obsolete, historically significant, and interesting. If the coin is on display at the FUN show, I will make no effort to view it.
I am glad that the buyer of the MS-70 Lincoln does not choose to collect XF/AU southern gold with the money that he will use to buy the Lincoln cent.
<< <i>PCGS graded millions of coins before assigning grades of 67, 68 and 69 to many series. Look at the number of higher grades 20 years later that never even existed back then. Pretty arbitrary huh?
When 70's become too plentiful it would be time to shift to the 100 pt system or something higher. Gradeflation must continue unabated.
This coin is the Holy Grail of Lincoln Cents
if you take this holy grail out of its plastic case what is it worth??
If you really had the Holy Grail and it was slabbed, it would be worth just as much out of the slab as in. But a MS70 Linc? It's worth essentially $10 or less out of the slab. I'm willing to take a $1000 challenge how about you? Are there 50 collectors on here willing to take this side? That's $50,000 guaranteed to the new owner if he's right about the coin being a legit MS70. Go ahead and buy the coin, and let's ship it back raw to PCGS under a 3rd party such as Coinguy. If it grades MS70 again, you win $50,000 on top of your coin. Wow, double your money on a sure thing! But.....if it goes 69 or less, you pay out $50,000+ to those 50 or more people willing to take a "chance." Takers?
roadrunner >>
To me- and I have been argued with for taking this position- The test is and will always be... What is the coin worth without its plastic stamp of approval.
If you took one of Cardinal's beauties- cracked it- and put it up raw in an auction- would it be bid up??? You bet your a$$ If you took one of TDN's beauties - cracked it- and put it up raw in an auction- would it be bid up??? You bet your a$$ If you took one of the Saintguru's beauties- cracked it- and put it up raw in an auction- would it be bid up??? You bet your a$$ If you took that 70 Lincoln- cracked it- and put it up raw in an auction- would it be bid up??? You fill in the next line...
Buy to coin folks, not the plastic... see my new cute little pic in my sigline......
Cardinal's, TDN's and Saintguru's coins are what they are, with or without plastic, that 70 Lincoln is a really nice cent without the plastic. It's worth IS the plastic. Without the plastic what do you think its % chance is of getting back in 70 plastic??? Honestly...
If you really had the Holy Grail and it was slabbed, it would be worth just as much out of the slab as in. But a MS70 Linc? It's worth essentially $10 or less out of the slab. I'm willing to take a $1000 challenge how about you? Are there 50 collectors on here willing to take this side? That's $50,000 guaranteed to the new owner if he's right about the coin being a legit MS70. Go ahead and buy the coin, and let's ship it back raw to PCGS under a 3rd party such as Coinguy. If it grades MS70 again, you win $50,000 on top of your coin. Wow, double your money on a sure thing! But.....if it goes 69 or less, you pay out $50,000+ to those 50 or more people willing to take a "chance." Takers?
roadrunner >>
An MS-69 2003 Lincoln is hardly a $10 coin. Even if it were to come back as MS-69 it would still command a premium as the finest MS-69 for the date.
Cardinal's, TDN's and Saintguru's coins are what they are, with or without plastic, that 70 Lincoln is a really nice cent without the plastic. It's worth IS the plastic. Without the plastic what do you think its % chance is of getting back in 70 plastic??? Honestly... >>
Just as a raw MS-67 trade dollar will bring more than a raw MS-61, a raw MS-70 Lincoln will bring more than an MS-65. People might travel from far and wide to bid on a raw MS- 67 dollar but they will not expend any effort to bid on an MS-70 2003 Lincoln. Few collectors even bother with coins made after 1964 so few would have any interest. Those who do have an interest are well aware that raw MS-70 Lincolns have always been overgraded.
Say what you will about this coin and the market for it but the facts aren't changed; This is pos- sibly the finest circulating issue US coin in existence and it is unique on that basis. The fact that it won't be sold raw is irrelevant as is the fact that most collectors would prefer a "real coin".
Those who think many more will be made just might be correct. But they aren't making 2003 cents anymore and you can look at a whole bunch of these before you find one nicer.
An MS-69 2003 Lincoln is hardly a $10 coin. Even if it were to come back as MS-69 it would still command a premium as the finest MS-69 for the date.
My mistake Cladking. Is it a $100 coin or $500 coin? Doesn't matter. The spread to what MS70 plastic is worth is 100 times those numbers. But at 236 coins graded in MS69, that sounds like a $10 to $100 coin at best. If someone does feel it's a 70 shot coin then they'll pay $500 to take a hundred regrades to try and "prove" it's a MS70 1 out of 200 attempts. My definition of a properly graded coin: it will come back the same grade at least 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 times (the majority)....2 out of 4 doesn't cut it, nor does 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 200. The submitter of this coin may have not been just some lucky Joe. More than likely he's a pro-collector who submits a lot of Lincs shooting for very high grades. He may be one of the best out there.
Finest 69 of the date? Do you really think that? I would wager $$ that it IS NOT the finest MS69 in a holder. We could assemble PCGS and NGC and I'd bet they'd rerank the top 10-20 of that group differently each time they looked over a period of months. My pop report is old but has 236 graded in MS69 out of 1300 or so submitted. Out of 236 coins do you think this is absolutely the best coin? I don't think so. The odds are way against it just on sheer numbers. I'm willing to wager on this. And by resubmitting the coin and getting 69 or LOWER the point will be proven. I'd be willing to wager than sent in raw a 68 grade would be achieved on at least 1 of 10 submissions. It would not surprise me to see PCGS give this a 67 grade on a whim (this is far more likely imo than getting a 70 on it again). Here's a chance to buy an icon type coin for $50K or less and make a mint if your opinions are correct. And then you can sell the coin to LMS for $100K down the road.
RB: I put "politics" in quotes because I often read assertions on these boards that:
1. PCGS gives better grades to dealers than collectors &
2. PCGS will NOT grade a super high end copper coin because it simply isn't worth the liability of taking in a $10 or $30 grading fee and risking tens of thousands of dollars in liability in the future.
In this case, the fact is PCGS did, indeed, put the "politics" of liability aside and award a casual collector with a monster coin - one, for example, I would never have dreamed receiving in a bulk lot I might have submitted to PCGS.
So, I say, good show to PCGS.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Yes, really. I believe this coin was submitted 8000 times a year for 20 years. That's possible, right? Whoever wrote that did not have their facts straight. Was this supposed to be a joke? I am a little dense, it must have been a joke.
Jonathan
I have been a collector for over mumbly-five years. I learn something new every day.
Incredibly there are well under 2000 submissions on this date, most being 68 or 69. So 20,000 submissions is not the case.
A MS68 grade is the most likely (75%) while a MS69 grade is about 20% likely based on PCGS pops. Considering that over 8000 1995 DDO's are graded sort of implies that very few 2003's have been to the slabber as of yet. Coin Values list the coin as $80 in MS 68 RD which seems high based on nearly 1000 coins graded. Are there 1000 people in need of one of these for Memorial sets? Doing a basic pops/price ratio the MS69 RD would be 2X to 3X the MS68 price.
Let's see, 1300 submissions x $15 bulk rate. It's probably worth it to send in a coin 1300 times in hopes of the one MS70.
RR: I suspect the vast majority of these coins were submitted via bulk grading. Recently, on this particular 2003 dated Lincoln, I submitted (200) fresh mint set pieces for grading for someone and, as I recall, only a dozen or so graded MS68RD out of the lot. So, you had (12) or so MS68RD show up in the pop report, while the other (188) pieces which graded under MS68RD do not show up in the pop report.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
My mistake Cladking. Is it a $100 coin or $500 coin? Doesn't matter. The spread to what MS70 plastic is worth is 100 times those numbers. But at 236 coins graded in MS69, that sounds like a $10 to $100 coin at best. If someone does feel it's a 70 shot coin then they'll pay $500 to take a hundred regrades to try and "prove" it's a MS70 1 out of 200 attempts. My definition of a properly graded coin: it will come back the same grade at least 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 times (the majority)....2 out of 4 doesn't cut it, nor does 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 200. The submitter of this coin may have not been just some lucky Joe. More than likely he's a pro-collector who submits a lot of Lincs shooting for very high grades. He may be one of the best out there.
Finest 69 of the date? Do you really think that? I would wager $$ that it IS NOT the finest MS69 in a holder. We could assemble PCGS and NGC and I'd bet they'd rerank the top 10-20 of that group differently each time they looked over a period of months. My pop report is old but has 236 graded in MS69 out of 1300 or so submitted. Out of 236 coins do you think this is absolutely the best coin? I don't think so. The odds are way against it just on sheer numbers. I'm willing to wager on this. And by resubmitting the coin and getting 69 or LOWER the point will be proven. I'd be willing to wager than sent in raw a 68 grade would be achieved on at least 1 of 10 submissions. It would not surprise me to see PCGS give this a 67 grade on a whim (this is far more likely imo than getting a 70 on it again). Here's a chance to buy an icon type coin for $50K or less and make a mint if your opinions are correct. And then you can sell the coin to LMS for $100K down the road.
roadrunner >>
It's not going to come back as an MS-68 unless it's damaged in the process.
Using your logic on sheer numbers alone there is an implication that this is the finest or very close to it. Surely they wouldn't select one coin out of 237 submitted on the basis of mere chance. If it were mere chance then some of the MS-60's might also be superior to this coin.
I never stated that this coin is worth some set amount or that the lower grade coins were necessarily always worth less. I did state on another board that I think this coin might sell for $60,000 but I'm no expert on such things. If it sells for this it will be be- cause the owner believes it is the finest available. It will be the highest graded (at least for now).
<< <i>RR: I suspect the vast majority of these coins were submitted via bulk grading. Recently, on this particular 2003 dated Lincoln, I submitted (200) fresh mint set pieces for grading for someone and, as I recall, only a dozen or so graded MS68RD out of the lot. So, you had (12) or so MS68RD show up in the pop report, while the other (188) pieces which graded under MS68RD do not show up in the pop report. >>
--So your client went 12 for 200 in making the grade? Did you prescreen these for him? If not why wouldn't he submit them himself?
I like that PCGS doesn't just imply perfection, but specifically says the coin is perfect... I'll bet that someone somewhere can find some small minute imperfection
It's not luck that the best pieces out of say 1000 are called MS69. On that particular day the TPG picked say 200 pieces to be MS69. On another day maybe only 100 of those same 200 pieces would make MS69.
Wondercoin, good point, did not consider effect of bulk submissions. The analysis for MS68 and up still works. Out of those 1000 or so coins 25% or so make MS69 and the rest MS68. I would defy the service to pick those same 25% each time...or reasonably close to it. The bulk submission BEGS for some winners, even if not fully deserving, or the submitters will stop. You see a lot of crud out there in holders and bulk submissions are a good source of them. Picking that one MS70 coin out the majority of the time is what I have an issue with. The services cannot do it. If the one 70 coin is worth $60,000, then what are the runners up worth that got picked over the MS70 on other occasions? $40,000? $20,000? $10,000? $1,000? More like in the $100-$500 range again! But how can those coins who were picked ahead of the MS70 on other occasions not be worth the same? The only difference is on those other occasions they were not placed in MS70 plastic at the end. This is all about marketing. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at PCGS when the finalizer decided to give this a 70. They discussed the pros and cons at length. "It's time for a 70 boys, slab her and ship 'em back."
<< <i> Out of those 1000 or so coins 25% or so make MS69 and the rest MS68. I would defy the service to pick those same 25% each time...or reasonably close to it. The bulk submission BEGS for some winners, even if not fully deserving, or the submitters will stop. You see a lot of crud out there in holders and bulk submissions are a good source of them. Picking that one MS70 coin out the majority of the time is what I have an issue with.
roadrunner >>
There is a real spread in grades on these. It simply is not that difficult to see the differences between coins in different grades if they are typical. Some coins are liners and would be liners everytime they came in. Some coins are atypical would be atypical everytime they came in.
Proofs have a far smaller spread of quality and it requires some learning to tell them apart. Many if not all 19th century coins are atypical because they have different surfaces that have developed over many decades of different types of care and abuse. (see recent threads), but 2003 Lincolns all have one sort of sur- face preservation. There simply isn't that much variation in how most would be graded from one submission to the next.
Well, I personally do think some politics may be involved. What better way to distract from all the other bad publicity they've been getting lately? They had to make a 70 sooner or later.
One thing that collectors of old coins may not be familiar with is the way that gems will just leap out at you when you find them. Sure there are lots of gem classics, but generally one doesn't find one in a roll of 1822 cents. One doesn't pick through a bag of 1864 quarters looking for the nicest pieces. This is not to say all moderns are common in unc but a lot of gems are found in larger batches of the same date.
It's a thrill to look through something like a batch of 1970 mint sets and have one of the San Francisco nickels just jump right out at you. The typical example will be pretty boring and even most of the nicer pieces will have a major flaw in strike, marking or die condition. When you finally find one that's nice then you know it. You don't need a grading service to tell you that these are special. Sure, with some coins like 2003 cents, there are larger numbers of "nearly as nice" coins but this is not always the case.
But even where there are "nearly as nice" coins some people will still want the nicest just like classic collectors usually include the common dates right next to the rare dates.
I do not care for this TPG-generated hype. I prefer coins that are fundamentally scarce in any condition, obsolete, historically significant, and interesting. If the coin is on display at the FUN show, I will make no effort to view it.
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
If I had the $$ of Gates or Buffet I'd buy the MS70 cent and resubmit it a 1000 times in all different methods (ascending grades, descending grades, bulk, single, etc.). It would be a very interesting survey to post the results of imo.
Unfortunately Wondercoin it is politics as usual. There was certainly a discussion over this coin and its ramifications on the current market. To anyone who doesn't think this didn't occur, there's a bridge in NY city I'd like to you see. Politics as usual? You bet? Just the fact that NGC cross rates at PCGS are 40% (and PCGS cross rates at NGC are 50% or less) says it all. How can half the coins from each service not be nice enough for the other, considering that the TPG graders are of the same basic skill level (ie 80% accurate per man). It's politics. It's a business.
Is this coin perfect? Maybe. Are there others just as nice? Out of hundreds of millions, most certainly. If cracked out and resubmitted tomorrow would it come back MS70? No way. These issues can debated and discussed until we are all blue in the face. There is only one thing that is for certain. This coin was placed in an MS70 holder deliberately and only represents the OPINION and motivation, whatever that may be, of those that did it.
Has anyone thought for a moment how many high end Lincoln's are now going to be sent in ( can you say---a nice income stream) to PCGS now that registry weenies and sellers to registry weenies think that PCGS has "opened the door a crack"
Cladking--- it has to be hard sometimes to keep making these shallow modern arguments--- why don't you give in to your common sense and start collecting classics ????
You know what's really funny about all of this? If you submit an NGC 70 coin for crossover to PCGS with a minimum grade of 70, they will not do that; they have claimed to need it raw to tell the difference between a 69 and a 70. In other words,
PCGS cannot, and admits they cannot, tell the difference between a slabbed 69 and a slabbed 70.
And yet, it is expected that collectors are able to, or should pay ludicrous difference in prices between slabbed 69's and 70's?
What if one of the 3 graders graded it MS69 and the other 2 called it MS70. Is it then perfect?? What if each guy said, I'm gonna play a joke and call this MS70, figuring no way in heck the other guys would do the same?
<< <i>It's not going to come back as an MS-68 unless it's damaged in the process. >>
Sorry cladking, but you don't submit to pcgs enough to see that's wrong. The leading dealer of wheats, once cracked out a low pop ms68 because it was so perfect, he thought it might go ms69. It came back ms66. I had 20 really awesome 1981 cents come back as ms65 or lower on a bulk once. I resubmitted all 20, and got 16 ms66's and 4 ms67's. Their graders are just not on the same page. One grader's perfect ms70 might be another graders ms68.
Nice theory to practice Lincoln's Rule. The graders can be very inconsistent among themselves, day to day, and month to month. I see this in classics all the time. Most of the TPG's now grade moderns all day long. The occasional classic is the odd man out. The expertise on those has left the building along with Elvis.
What they saw just before your coins might have a huge impact on how they perceive your coins. A 1pt difference makes all the difference. Send that MS70 in all by itself raw, and see how the chips fall. A MS68 grade would be an almost certainty imo in the first 5-10 attempts.
RR: For the sake of argument, let's assume you are right and the 2003(p) MS70RD coin would grade a point lower the next time or two through (blindly). And, let's also assume the same would be true for a few of the 1909(svdb) MS67RD Lincoln Cents, which have a spread of $12,500 in PCGS-MS66RD to about $90,000 in PCGS-MS67RD.
Next question - so what? Both coins are grade rarities and both coins will have their players chasing the grade assigned on the holder for better or for worse - right?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>RR: For the sake of argument, let's assume you are right and the 2003(p) MS70RD coin would grade a point lower the next time or two through (blindly). And, let's also assume the same would be true for a few of the 1909(svdb) MS67RD Lincoln Cents, which have a spread of $12,500 in PCGS-MS66RD to about $90,000 in PCGS-MS67RD.
Next question - so what? Both coins are grade rarities and both coins will have their players chasing the grade assigned on the holder for better or for worse - right?
Wondercoin >>
Mitch, my guess is that the point was simply that certain coins, if forced to stand on their own (without plastic, grading labels and blessings from grading companies - something that could happen one day in the future) would be likely to sell for much higher %'s of their current values, than others. That concept is extremely important to some people and just as unimportant to others.
It's not "so what" to me. I would avoid those kinds of coins like the plague for my personal holdings. I want a coin that makes the grade most of the time (3 out of 4 or better). The others I wholesale off to dealers if I flip them or make them. I would never sell such a coin to a collector w/o full disclosure. A dealer should know his trade so he doesn't get that benefit unless I work with him a lot and he with me.
Bottom line is that if the lone 67 1909s vdb cannot make that grade at least 2 out of 3 times (and forget 50/50!) it's not worth the $90K to me, but closer to the $12,500 of the 66. A 50/50 coin to me might be worth $25K to $35K. I would never pay the full 67 money like a REG set guy would. The coin has to be a legit, usually comes back MS67 coin or I don't want it. If the client is aware of this and buys it with eyes open then fine. I feel very uncomfortable keeping a just made it coin.
Here's an example. Someone made an 1841 half in PCGS MS65 about 2 years ago. One of the several MS64's got fleeted up. It's now pop 1 at PCGS. Is it worth MS65 money? Hardly. I bought the coin and paid a 0% premium to "real" MS64 money. An 1841 has an interesting price listing that is quite low. It lists for under $3000 in MS64 but an honest all day MS64 is worth closer to $5000 imo (what a MS65 lists for). This coin had lots of ticks and no one who I showed it to was impressed with it...even as "finest" graded. Maybe I was more impressed with the plastic as well, but at the same time knew the plastic would give me a floor to protect myself. I was able to flip it to a rare coin factory for a 20% profit only because of the plastic. The next guy tried to double up on it...only because of the plastic and pop 1 status. A real MS65 would be worth $10,000+ to me (2x CDN). I've never seen one. If you have one please ship for prompt payment at 2x bid. So did it make any difference that this 64 made 65 after several attempts and was gifted in? No. It was still a dog in a 65 holder and would probably take another 10 attempts (if you were lucky) to get a 65 again. Does that make it worth 65 money? Of course not. It is not worth the $10,000+ an honest one would fetch. A low end 65 as this one was is worth maybe 20% over nice MS64 level. It was worth in the $6-7K range at best. Out of the holder it was worth $4500-$5000.
I'd love to own and keep a real gem 1841 half. This was not the one so out with the bath water.
Coinguy1, Goose3, RR - I agree with almost everything you are saying. My only point is coins "not standing on their own" is not limited to a modern coin thing. The same is true for classics, especially classic condition rarities as RR shows. But, I seldom see threads discussing anything but modern condition rarities and what happens if those are removed from their holders. Yesterday, I was offered an exceptionally premium quality classic coin for around $20,000 where the typical coin in that grade sells for around $10,000. On the other hand, the next grade up is pop 1 and has sold for more than $60,000. The highly respected dealer who owns this coin made the point to me that his coin "blows away" the pop 1 coin. Whether that be true or not, you seldom see any modern collectors or dealers posting threads pointing out all of the classic coins that are overgraded coming up for auction and how much of their value would be lost if they were cracked out of the holder - it just does not happen very often.
That said - let me make it clear that I have not commented whatsoever whether this particular 2003(p) cent is good value at the $10 one poster commented the coin was worth or the $60,000 CK may have mentioned elsewhere. My comments are more general in nature and less to do about the 2003(p) cent.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<<My only point is coins "not standing on their own" is not limited to a modern coin thing>>
I agree, Mitch. My guess is that it's a much more frequent and exaggerated occurrence with respect to moderns, but either way, classics are subject to similar distortions. I almost always avoid such coins, but I respect the rights of others to do as they choose (hopefully on an informed basis).
Most intelligent people will realize that this was just a very good business decision for the grading company. This coin will get a lot of recognition, recognize a massive price, they'll get more submissions and people trying for their very own 70's, and eventually (my guess) when the coin gets the tiniest of toning spots forming on it, they'll have to pay out $50K or whatever it last sold for. Sorry, but a Red Lincoln Cent billed as "perfect" is not likely to stay perfect. I'm sure the grading room was extremely careful about observing any possible anomolies (like any sort of well hidden oils and the like that would cause the coin to eventually turn). I bet that even head of the company gave his blessing on this coin.
Once again, you have to ask yourself, without that number on that piece of plastic, what's it really worth? Chances are you can find hundreds, if not thousands of cents that have extremely similar eye appeal. What are they worth?
Envision this...break the coin out. With the shards of the holder right next to the coin, offer it to any dealer or collector. What do you think you'll get for it? I bet most dealers would laugh at anything much above face. A dealer specializing in Lincoln cents might make an offer of a couple bucks or so because it has a superb gem look to it.
Face it guys, that piece of plastic...the PLASTIC and the INSERT....is worth between $20K-$50K...not the coin.
Mitch, I'm more than willing to bash classics when I see a grading anomoly. It happens a lot. I toss them out a lot as well to be discussed here.
I'd be one of the ones to fork over $20K for that classic you mentioned if I was convinced it blew away the current pop 1. I don't need it to be holdered...but of course I'd prefer it rather than taking additional risk. If a coin has some doubts then the holder is a good thing to limit your downside. Buying an NGC coin for PCGS type money (above CDN bid) is similar to buying raw. Example: MS67 no motto seated half. The PCGS coins are less plentiful but sell in the $28-$35K range. The NGC coins sell for $14-$25K for typical quality. A real "makes PCGS standards" MS67 sitting in a NGC holder will still fetch $30K to the guy who knows his stuff. But 95+% of those out there will pass on it because the plastic doesn't fit the price. I took the risk on one such NGC 67 NM half and paid full PCGS money. Since I haven't yet tried to sell it, I'm not sure if my risk has been rewarded or not. I bought the coin and only "part of the plastic."
Mitch, my guess is that the point was simply that certain coins, if forced to stand on their own (without plastic, grading labels and blessings from grading companies - something that could happen one day in the future) would be likely to sell for much higher %'s of their current values, than others. That concept is extremely important to some people and just as unimportant to others. >>
You're right (as usual). And it's also true that modern coins (generally) will have a higher chance of being less valuable out of the slab.
To those who are investing or speculating in coins this can be all important. Even those who are strictly collectors can be concerned about getting their money back on coins. If one is con- cerned that grading can be stood on its head and that the plastic can become meaningless then he will need to know how to tell a nice coin from one that isn't so nice or he had better collect lower grades or entirely different coins (like classics).
But the fact remains that one can rate moderns from best to worst with relatively little learning. While the slab may be critical to selling the coin at this time, it is hardly important in identifying the best coins.
Moderns are easy to grade. Right off the bat the bulk of these are collected only in unc and proof, and hairlining, rub, and questionable surfaces are rarely an issue. Where there is a large spread from one grade to another such as in the mint state coins there simply isn't much disagreement on which is the superior coin. Just like in classics some modern collectors pre- fer clean surfaces and some look for strike or die condition. A few even care more about center- ing and eveness of strike than other factors. To each his own but the things that most interfere with agreement in grading is simply absent in modern coins.
Envision this...break the coin out. With the shards of the holder right next to the coin, offer it to any dealer or collector. What do you think you'll get for it? I bet most dealers would laugh at anything much above face. A dealer specializing in Lincoln cents might make an offer of a couple bucks or so because it has a superb gem look to it.
>>
Most dealers offer pennies on the dollar for all moderns. This doesn't mean they are worth pennies, it means the dealers don't get involved in niche markets.
An '09-S VDB has a high demand in all grades. Just because one doesn't grade MS-67 doesn't suddenly make it worthless but you won't find anyone to offer MS-67 on it after you bust it out. You can get MS-66 money from knowledgeable collectors but very few would offer MS-67 money.
A nice PR-68 '75 No-S dime should bring around $50,000. If you break this out of the holder then you'll find that very few would offer PR-68 money. But just like the '09-S VDB it wouldn't be too hard to find someone to offer $40,000 which is PR-67 money.
The simple fact is that MS-69 2003 cents are not extremely valuable. Why is it surprising that it might bring less out of the holder?
In reference to the value of the 2003 cent out of the holder:
<< <i>It's not "so what" to me.
roadrunner >>
I don't blame you and won't question your motives. Everyone is free to seek the coins he desires and enjoys.
But there are also huge advantages to collecting in an area like this. There are huge ad- vantages to the buyer who can be less concerned with the effects of speculation and pro- motion. There is the ability for the collector to find these coins raw which usually means paying far under market price. There is less competition.
There are also advantages to the sellers.
While I wouldn't suggest that paying $60,000 for a slabbed 2003 cent is a great investment, it's unlikely that the buyer needs any guidance in this decision. He will most probably be a collector of Lincolns or types and will come to his estimate of value based on his own know- ledge. If he's an investor then he will be assuming a different type of risk than most other coin collectors. I would hesitate to say that this risk is necessarily greater than for other col- lectors even if the percentage at risk might be steeper.
I know it's been said in this thread. But I still present for evidence to the Jury. What would happen if this coin were to be cracked out and resubmitted?
This has to be a business decision for PCGS. I am sure the graders were all told be on the lookout for a really nice lincoln because we are going to give out a MS70RD. (PS it can't be in a bulk submit, *wink wink)
I hate to be so cynical, but the numerous crackouts I have done and some of the grades I have seen(over and ungergraded) I just can't see this is just a happen chance all the graders happened to agree this was a perfect MS70.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing about. -Benjamin Franklin-
<< <i>I know it's been said in this thread. But I still present for evidence to the Jury. What would happen if this coin were to be cracked out and resubmitted?
This has to be a business decision for PCGS. I am sure the graders were all told be on the lookout for a really nice lincoln because we are going to give out a MS70RD. (PS it can't be in a bulk submit, *wink wink)
I hate to be so cynical, but the numerous crackouts I have done and some of the grades I have seen(over and ungergraded) I just can't see this is just a happen chance all the graders happened to agree this was a perfect MS70. >>
I'm sue it will go for thousands of dollars if rbought to auction, but lets think about this.
The only reason someone would want a 70 over a 69 is probably for their PCGS registry set, and that is what will most likely drive the price up. People will be paying thousands and thousands of dollars over the price of an MS69 just so they can have a slightly higher ranking with their PCGS set. It is obsurd!
Comments
Wondercoin
I am glad that the buyer of the MS-70 Lincoln does not choose to collect XF/AU southern gold with the money that he will use to buy the Lincoln cent.
<< <i>PCGS graded millions of coins before assigning grades of 67, 68 and 69 to many series. Look at the number of higher grades 20 years later that never even existed back then. Pretty arbitrary huh?
When 70's become too plentiful it would be time to shift to the 100 pt system or something higher. Gradeflation must continue unabated.
This coin is the Holy Grail of Lincoln Cents
if you take this holy grail out of its plastic case what is it worth??
If you really had the Holy Grail and it was slabbed, it would be worth just as much out of the slab as in. But a MS70 Linc? It's worth essentially $10 or less out of the slab. I'm willing to take a $1000 challenge how about you? Are there 50 collectors on here willing to take this side? That's $50,000 guaranteed to the new owner if he's right about the coin being a legit MS70. Go ahead and buy the coin, and let's ship it back raw to PCGS under a 3rd party such as Coinguy. If it grades MS70 again, you win $50,000 on top of your coin. Wow, double your money on a sure thing! But.....if it goes 69 or less, you pay out $50,000+ to those 50 or more people willing to take a "chance." Takers?
roadrunner >>
To me- and I have been argued with for taking this position- The test is and will always be... What is the coin worth without its plastic stamp of approval.
If you took one of Cardinal's beauties- cracked it- and put it up raw in an auction- would it be bid up??? You bet your a$$
If you took one of TDN's beauties - cracked it- and put it up raw in an auction- would it be bid up??? You bet your a$$
If you took one of the Saintguru's beauties- cracked it- and put it up raw in an auction- would it be bid up??? You bet your a$$
If you took that 70 Lincoln- cracked it- and put it up raw in an auction- would it be bid up??? You fill in the next line...
Buy to coin folks, not the plastic... see my new cute little pic in my sigline......
Cardinal's, TDN's and Saintguru's coins are what they are, with or without plastic, that 70 Lincoln is a really nice cent without the plastic.
It's worth IS the plastic. Without the plastic what do you think its % chance is of getting back in 70 plastic??? Honestly...
<< <i>To each his own but imagine what real coin you could buy with the money this MS-70 modern coin is "worth". >>
That is soo true. And I also live in this real world and wish that MS70 Lincoln were mine. It would fund quite a few goodies for me and my family.
<< <i>
If you really had the Holy Grail and it was slabbed, it would be worth just as much out of the slab as in. But a MS70 Linc? It's worth essentially $10 or less out of the slab. I'm willing to take a $1000 challenge how about you? Are there 50 collectors on here willing to take this side? That's $50,000 guaranteed to the new owner if he's right about the coin being a legit MS70. Go ahead and buy the coin, and let's ship it back raw to PCGS under a 3rd party such as Coinguy. If it grades MS70 again, you win $50,000 on top of your coin. Wow, double your money on a sure thing! But.....if it goes 69 or less, you pay out $50,000+ to those 50 or more people willing to take a "chance." Takers?
roadrunner >>
An MS-69 2003 Lincoln is hardly a $10 coin. Even if it were to come back as MS-69
it would still command a premium as the finest MS-69 for the date.
<< <i>To each his own but imagine what real coin you could buy with the money this MS-70 modern coin is "worth". >>
This kind of money would go a long way toward putting together a top notch Ike set.
What facts (EXACTLY) are you basing that assetion on?
<< <i>
Cardinal's, TDN's and Saintguru's coins are what they are, with or without plastic, that 70 Lincoln is a really nice cent without the plastic.
It's worth IS the plastic. Without the plastic what do you think its % chance is of getting back in 70 plastic??? Honestly... >>
Just as a raw MS-67 trade dollar will bring more than a raw MS-61, a raw MS-70 Lincoln
will bring more than an MS-65. People might travel from far and wide to bid on a raw MS-
67 dollar but they will not expend any effort to bid on an MS-70 2003 Lincoln. Few collectors
even bother with coins made after 1964 so few would have any interest. Those who do have
an interest are well aware that raw MS-70 Lincolns have always been overgraded.
Say what you will about this coin and the market for it but the facts aren't changed; This is pos-
sibly the finest circulating issue US coin in existence and it is unique on that basis. The fact that
it won't be sold raw is irrelevant as is the fact that most collectors would prefer a "real coin".
Those who think many more will be made just might be correct. But they aren't making 2003
cents anymore and you can look at a whole bunch of these before you find one nicer.
My mistake Cladking. Is it a $100 coin or $500 coin? Doesn't matter. The spread to what MS70 plastic is worth is 100 times those numbers. But at 236 coins graded in MS69, that sounds like a $10 to $100 coin at best. If someone does feel it's a 70 shot coin then they'll pay $500 to take a hundred regrades to try and "prove" it's a MS70 1 out of 200 attempts. My definition of a properly graded coin: it will come back the same grade at least 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 times (the majority)....2 out of 4 doesn't cut it, nor does 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 200. The submitter of this coin may have not been just some lucky Joe. More than likely he's a pro-collector who submits a lot of Lincs shooting for very high grades. He may be one of the best out there.
Finest 69 of the date? Do you really think that? I would wager $$ that it IS NOT the finest MS69 in a holder. We could assemble PCGS and NGC and I'd bet they'd rerank the top 10-20 of that group differently each time they looked over a period of months. My pop report is old but has 236 graded in MS69 out of 1300 or so submitted. Out of 236 coins do you think this is absolutely the best coin? I don't think so. The odds are way against it just on sheer numbers. I'm willing to wager on this. And by resubmitting the coin and getting 69 or LOWER the point will be proven. I'd be willing to wager than sent in raw a 68 grade would be achieved on at least 1 of 10 submissions. It would not surprise me to see PCGS give this a 67 grade on a whim (this is far more likely imo than getting a 70 on it again). Here's a chance to buy an icon type coin for $50K or less and make a mint if your opinions are correct. And then you can sell the coin to LMS for $100K down the road.
roadrunner
1. PCGS gives better grades to dealers than collectors &
2. PCGS will NOT grade a super high end copper coin because it simply isn't worth the liability of taking in a $10 or $30 grading fee and risking tens of thousands of dollars in liability in the future.
In this case, the fact is PCGS did, indeed, put the "politics" of liability aside and award a casual collector with a monster coin - one, for example, I would never have dreamed receiving in a bulk lot I might have submitted to PCGS.
So, I say, good show to PCGS.
Wondercoin
Jonathan
A MS68 grade is the most likely (75%) while a MS69 grade is about 20% likely based on PCGS pops. Considering that over 8000 1995 DDO's are graded sort of implies that very few 2003's have been to the slabber as of yet. Coin Values list the coin as $80 in MS 68 RD which seems high based on nearly 1000 coins graded. Are there 1000 people in need of one of these for Memorial sets? Doing a basic pops/price ratio the MS69 RD would be 2X to 3X the MS68 price.
Let's see, 1300 submissions x $15 bulk rate. It's probably worth it to send in a coin 1300 times in hopes of the one MS70.
roadrunner
RR: I suspect the vast majority of these coins were submitted via bulk grading. Recently, on this particular 2003 dated Lincoln, I submitted (200) fresh mint set pieces for grading for someone and, as I recall, only a dozen or so graded MS68RD out of the lot. So, you had (12) or so MS68RD show up in the pop report, while the other (188) pieces which graded under MS68RD do not show up in the pop report.
Wondercoin
<< <i>
My mistake Cladking. Is it a $100 coin or $500 coin? Doesn't matter. The spread to what MS70 plastic is worth is 100 times those numbers. But at 236 coins graded in MS69, that sounds like a $10 to $100 coin at best. If someone does feel it's a 70 shot coin then they'll pay $500 to take a hundred regrades to try and "prove" it's a MS70 1 out of 200 attempts. My definition of a properly graded coin: it will come back the same grade at least 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 times (the majority)....2 out of 4 doesn't cut it, nor does 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 200. The submitter of this coin may have not been just some lucky Joe. More than likely he's a pro-collector who submits a lot of Lincs shooting for very high grades. He may be one of the best out there.
Finest 69 of the date? Do you really think that? I would wager $$ that it IS NOT the finest MS69 in a holder. We could assemble PCGS and NGC and I'd bet they'd rerank the top 10-20 of that group differently each time they looked over a period of months. My pop report is old but has 236 graded in MS69 out of 1300 or so submitted. Out of 236 coins do you think this is absolutely the best coin? I don't think so. The odds are way against it just on sheer numbers. I'm willing to wager on this. And by resubmitting the coin and getting 69 or LOWER the point will be proven. I'd be willing to wager than sent in raw a 68 grade would be achieved on at least 1 of 10 submissions. It would not surprise me to see PCGS give this a 67 grade on a whim (this is far more likely imo than getting a 70 on it again). Here's a chance to buy an icon type coin for $50K or less and make a mint if your opinions are correct. And then you can sell the coin to LMS for $100K down the road.
roadrunner >>
It's not going to come back as an MS-68 unless it's damaged in the process.
Using your logic on sheer numbers alone there is an implication that this is the finest
or very close to it. Surely they wouldn't select one coin out of 237 submitted on the
basis of mere chance. If it were mere chance then some of the MS-60's might also be
superior to this coin.
I never stated that this coin is worth some set amount or that the lower grade coins
were necessarily always worth less. I did state on another board that I think this coin
might sell for $60,000 but I'm no expert on such things. If it sells for this it will be be-
cause the owner believes it is the finest available. It will be the highest graded (at least
for now).
<< <i>RR: I suspect the vast majority of these coins were submitted via bulk grading. Recently, on this particular 2003 dated Lincoln, I submitted (200) fresh mint set pieces for grading for someone and, as I recall, only a dozen or so graded MS68RD out of the lot. So, you had (12) or so MS68RD show up in the pop report, while the other (188) pieces which graded under MS68RD do not show up in the pop report. >>
--So your client went 12 for 200 in making the grade? Did you prescreen these for him? If not why wouldn't he submit them himself?
42/92
On another day maybe only 100 of those same 200 pieces would make MS69.
Wondercoin, good point, did not consider effect of bulk submissions.
The analysis for MS68 and up still works. Out of those 1000 or so coins 25% or so make MS69 and the rest MS68. I would defy the service to pick those same 25% each time...or reasonably close to it.
The bulk submission BEGS for some winners, even if not fully deserving, or the submitters will stop. You see a lot of crud out there in holders and bulk submissions are a good source of them.
Picking that one MS70 coin out the majority of the time is what I have an issue with. The services cannot do it. If the one 70 coin is worth $60,000, then what are the runners up worth that got picked over the MS70 on other occasions? $40,000? $20,000?
$10,000? $1,000? More like in the $100-$500 range again! But how can those coins who were picked ahead of the MS70 on other occasions not be worth the same? The only difference is on those other occasions they were not placed in MS70 plastic at the end.
This is all about marketing. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at PCGS when the finalizer decided to give this a 70. They discussed the pros and cons at length. "It's time for a 70 boys, slab her and ship 'em back."
roadrunner
<< <i> Out of those 1000 or so coins 25% or so make MS69 and the rest MS68. I would defy the service to pick those same 25% each time...or reasonably close to it.
The bulk submission BEGS for some winners, even if not fully deserving, or the submitters will stop. You see a lot of crud out there in holders and bulk submissions are a good source of them.
Picking that one MS70 coin out the majority of the time is what I have an issue with.
roadrunner >>
There is a real spread in grades on these. It simply is not that difficult to see
the differences between coins in different grades if they are typical. Some coins
are liners and would be liners everytime they came in. Some coins are atypical
would be atypical everytime they came in.
Proofs have a far smaller spread of quality and it requires some learning to tell
them apart. Many if not all 19th century coins are atypical because they have
different surfaces that have developed over many decades of different types of
care and abuse. (see recent threads), but 2003 Lincolns all have one sort of sur-
face preservation. There simply isn't that much variation in how most would be
graded from one submission to the next.
There we go again with the "politics"
TWQG - I did not screen the pieces - just dropped them off for someone.
Wondercoin
will just leap out at you when you find them. Sure there are lots of gem classics, but
generally one doesn't find one in a roll of 1822 cents. One doesn't pick through a bag
of 1864 quarters looking for the nicest pieces. This is not to say all moderns are common
in unc but a lot of gems are found in larger batches of the same date.
It's a thrill to look through something like a batch of 1970 mint sets and have one of the
San Francisco nickels just jump right out at you. The typical example will be pretty boring
and even most of the nicer pieces will have a major flaw in strike, marking or die condition.
When you finally find one that's nice then you know it. You don't need a grading service
to tell you that these are special. Sure, with some coins like 2003 cents, there are larger
numbers of "nearly as nice" coins but this is not always the case.
But even where there are "nearly as nice" coins some people will still want the nicest just
like classic collectors usually include the common dates right next to the rare dates.
or how many toners.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Unfortunately Wondercoin it is politics as usual. There was certainly a discussion over this coin and its ramifications on the current market. To anyone who doesn't think this didn't occur, there's a bridge in NY city I'd like to you see. Politics as usual? You bet?
Just the fact that NGC cross rates at PCGS are 40% (and PCGS cross rates at NGC are 50% or less) says it all. How can half the coins from each service not be nice enough for the other, considering that the TPG graders are of the same basic skill level (ie 80% accurate per man). It's politics. It's a business.
roadrunner
Is this coin perfect? Maybe. Are there others just as nice? Out of hundreds of millions, most certainly. If cracked out and resubmitted tomorrow would it come back MS70? No way. These issues can debated and discussed until we are all blue in the face. There is only one thing that is for certain. This coin was placed in an MS70 holder deliberately and only represents the OPINION and motivation, whatever that may be, of those that did it.
Cladking--- it has to be hard sometimes to keep making these shallow modern arguments--- why don't you give in to your common sense and start collecting classics ????
Just kidding Sam
PCGS cannot, and admits they cannot, tell the difference between a slabbed 69 and a slabbed 70.
And yet, it is expected that collectors are able to, or should pay ludicrous difference in prices between slabbed 69's and 70's?
Ed. S.
(EJS)
roadrunner
<< <i>It's not going to come back as an MS-68 unless it's damaged in the process. >>
Sorry cladking, but you don't submit to pcgs enough to see that's wrong. The leading dealer of wheats, once cracked out a low pop ms68 because it was so perfect, he thought it might go ms69. It came back ms66. I had 20 really awesome 1981 cents come back as ms65 or lower on a bulk once. I resubmitted all 20, and got 16 ms66's and 4 ms67's. Their graders are just not on the same page. One grader's perfect ms70 might be another graders ms68.
I see this in classics all the time. Most of the TPG's now grade moderns all day long. The occasional classic is the odd man out.
The expertise on those has left the building along with Elvis.
What they saw just before your coins might have a huge impact on how they perceive your coins. A 1pt difference makes all the difference. Send that MS70 in all by itself raw, and see how the chips fall. A MS68 grade would be an almost certainty imo in the first 5-10 attempts.
roadrunner
Next question - so what? Both coins are grade rarities and both coins will have their players chasing the grade assigned on the holder for better or for worse - right?
Wondercoin
<< <i>RR: For the sake of argument, let's assume you are right and the 2003(p) MS70RD coin would grade a point lower the next time or two through (blindly). And, let's also assume the same would be true for a few of the 1909(svdb) MS67RD Lincoln Cents, which have a spread of $12,500 in PCGS-MS66RD to about $90,000 in PCGS-MS67RD.
Next question - so what? Both coins are grade rarities and both coins will have their players chasing the grade assigned on the holder for better or for worse - right?
Wondercoin >>
Mitch, my guess is that the point was simply that certain coins, if forced to stand on their own (without plastic, grading labels and blessings from grading companies - something that could happen one day in the future) would be likely to sell for much higher %'s of their current values, than others. That concept is extremely important to some people and just as unimportant to others.
the SVDB seems to be the only thing you try and concoct when it comes to a modern coin argument.
An MS67 SVDB will stand on it's own with or without plastic to a knowledgeable collector. The same cannot be said for the coin in this thread. PERIOD.
Take an MS67RD SVDB, crack it out, advertise it as such at any large auction and see what it does. (of course no mention of the previous grade)
Do the same with the MS70 lincoln and see what happens.
Bottom line is that if the lone 67 1909s vdb cannot make that grade at least 2 out of 3 times (and forget 50/50!) it's not worth the $90K to me, but closer to the $12,500 of the 66. A 50/50 coin to me might be worth $25K to $35K. I would never pay the full 67 money like a REG set guy would. The coin has to be a legit, usually comes back MS67 coin or I don't want it. If the client is aware of this and buys it with eyes open then fine. I feel very uncomfortable keeping a just made it coin.
Here's an example. Someone made an 1841 half in PCGS MS65 about 2 years ago. One of the several MS64's got fleeted up. It's now pop 1 at PCGS. Is it worth MS65 money? Hardly. I bought the coin and paid a 0% premium to "real" MS64 money. An 1841 has an interesting price listing that is quite low. It lists for under $3000 in MS64 but an honest all day MS64 is worth closer to $5000 imo
(what a MS65 lists for). This coin had lots of ticks and no one who I showed it to was impressed with it...even as "finest" graded. Maybe I was more impressed with the plastic as well, but at the same time knew the plastic would give me a floor to protect myself.
I was able to flip it to a rare coin factory for a 20% profit only because of the plastic. The next guy tried to double up on it...only because of the plastic and pop 1 status. A real MS65 would be worth $10,000+ to me (2x CDN). I've never seen one. If you have one please ship for prompt payment at 2x bid. So did it make any difference that this 64 made 65 after several attempts and was gifted in? No. It was still a dog in a 65 holder and would probably take another 10 attempts (if you were lucky) to get a 65 again. Does that make it worth 65 money? Of course not. It is not worth the $10,000+ an honest one would fetch. A low end 65 as this one was is worth maybe 20% over nice MS64 level. It was worth in the
$6-7K range at best. Out of the holder it was worth $4500-$5000.
I'd love to own and keep a real gem 1841 half. This was not the
one so out with the bath water.
roadrunner
That said - let me make it clear that I have not commented whatsoever whether this particular 2003(p) cent is good value at the $10 one poster commented the coin was worth or the $60,000 CK may have mentioned elsewhere. My comments are more general in nature and less to do about the 2003(p) cent.
Wondercoin
I agree, Mitch. My guess is that it's a much more frequent and exaggerated occurrence with respect to moderns, but either way, classics are subject to similar distortions. I almost always avoid such coins, but I respect the rights of others to do as they choose (hopefully on an informed basis).
Why do people submit them?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Once again, you have to ask yourself, without that number on that piece of plastic, what's it really worth? Chances are you can find hundreds, if not thousands of cents that have extremely similar eye appeal. What are they worth?
Envision this...break the coin out. With the shards of the holder right next to the coin, offer it to any dealer or collector. What do you think you'll get for it? I bet most dealers would laugh at anything much above face. A dealer specializing in Lincoln cents might make an offer of a couple bucks or so because it has a superb gem look to it.
Face it guys, that piece of plastic...the PLASTIC and the INSERT....is worth between $20K-$50K...not the coin.
I'd be one of the ones to fork over $20K for that classic you mentioned if I was convinced it blew away the current pop 1. I don't need it to be holdered...but of course I'd prefer it rather than taking additional risk. If a coin has some doubts then the holder is a good thing to limit your downside. Buying an NGC coin for PCGS type money (above CDN bid) is similar to buying raw. Example:
MS67 no motto seated half. The PCGS coins are less plentiful but sell in the $28-$35K range. The NGC coins sell for $14-$25K for typical quality. A real "makes PCGS standards" MS67 sitting in a NGC holder will still fetch $30K to the guy who knows his stuff.
But 95+% of those out there will pass on it because the plastic doesn't fit the price. I took the risk on one such NGC 67 NM half and paid full PCGS money. Since I haven't yet tried to sell it, I'm not sure if my risk has been rewarded or not. I bought the coin and only "part of the plastic."
roadrunner
<< <i>
Wondercoin >>
Mitch, my guess is that the point was simply that certain coins, if forced to stand on their own (without plastic, grading labels and blessings from grading companies - something that could happen one day in the future) would be likely to sell for much higher %'s of their current values, than others. That concept is extremely important to some people and just as unimportant to others. >>
You're right (as usual). And it's also true that modern coins (generally) will have a higher
chance of being less valuable out of the slab.
To those who are investing or speculating in coins this can be all important. Even those who
are strictly collectors can be concerned about getting their money back on coins. If one is con-
cerned that grading can be stood on its head and that the plastic can become meaningless
then he will need to know how to tell a nice coin from one that isn't so nice or he had better
collect lower grades or entirely different coins (like classics).
But the fact remains that one can rate moderns from best to worst with relatively little learning.
While the slab may be critical to selling the coin at this time, it is hardly important in identifying
the best coins.
Moderns are easy to grade. Right off the bat the bulk of these are collected only in unc and
proof, and hairlining, rub, and questionable surfaces are rarely an issue. Where there is a
large spread from one grade to another such as in the mint state coins there simply isn't much
disagreement on which is the superior coin. Just like in classics some modern collectors pre-
fer clean surfaces and some look for strike or die condition. A few even care more about center-
ing and eveness of strike than other factors. To each his own but the things that most interfere
with agreement in grading is simply absent in modern coins.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>
Envision this...break the coin out. With the shards of the holder right next to the coin, offer it to any dealer or collector. What do you think you'll get for it? I bet most dealers would laugh at anything much above face. A dealer specializing in Lincoln cents might make an offer of a couple bucks or so because it has a superb gem look to it.
>>
Most dealers offer pennies on the dollar for all moderns. This doesn't mean they are worth pennies, it means the dealers don't get involved in niche markets.
suddenly make it worthless but you won't find anyone to offer MS-67 on it after you bust it out.
You can get MS-66 money from knowledgeable collectors but very few would offer MS-67 money.
A nice PR-68 '75 No-S dime should bring around $50,000. If you break this out of the holder then
you'll find that very few would offer PR-68 money. But just like the '09-S VDB it wouldn't be too
hard to find someone to offer $40,000 which is PR-67 money.
The simple fact is that MS-69 2003 cents are not extremely valuable. Why is it surprising that it
might bring less out of the holder?
<< <i>It's not "so what" to me.
roadrunner >>
I don't blame you and won't question your motives. Everyone is free to seek the coins
he desires and enjoys.
But there are also huge advantages to collecting in an area like this. There are huge ad-
vantages to the buyer who can be less concerned with the effects of speculation and pro-
motion. There is the ability for the collector to find these coins raw which usually means
paying far under market price. There is less competition.
There are also advantages to the sellers.
While I wouldn't suggest that paying $60,000 for a slabbed 2003 cent is a great investment,
it's unlikely that the buyer needs any guidance in this decision. He will most probably be a
collector of Lincolns or types and will come to his estimate of value based on his own know-
ledge. If he's an investor then he will be assuming a different type of risk than most other
coin collectors. I would hesitate to say that this risk is necessarily greater than for other col-
lectors even if the percentage at risk might be steeper.
This has to be a business decision for PCGS. I am sure the graders were all told be on the lookout for a really nice lincoln because we are going to give out a MS70RD. (PS it can't be in a bulk submit, *wink wink)
I hate to be so cynical, but the numerous crackouts I have done and some of the grades I have seen(over and ungergraded) I just can't see this is just a happen chance all the graders happened to agree this was a perfect MS70.
<< <i>I know it's been said in this thread. But I still present for evidence to the Jury. What would happen if this coin were to be cracked out and resubmitted?
This has to be a business decision for PCGS. I am sure the graders were all told be on the lookout for a really nice lincoln because we are going to give out a MS70RD. (PS it can't be in a bulk submit, *wink wink)
I hate to be so cynical, but the numerous crackouts I have done and some of the grades I have seen(over and ungergraded) I just can't see this is just a happen chance all the graders happened to agree this was a perfect MS70. >>
roadrunner
The only reason someone would want a 70 over a 69 is probably for their PCGS registry set, and that is what will most likely drive the price up. People will be paying thousands and thousands of dollars over the price of an MS69 just so they can have a slightly higher ranking with their PCGS set. It is obsurd!