<< <i>if that coin hits the market, I hope someone sees them swirly gouges in the reverse.... who cares about the color ? .... it's damaged and the author told us long ago, it ain't for sale and I believe him. (for now) >>
This coin is not going up for sale. I never intended to sale it, and still don't. This coin is 100% problem coin due to its scratches.
What is the difference of this coin sitting ona a anpkin and a Morgan laying against the canvas bag? Are checmicals used? Hello, there are chemcial processes around us eveyday that affect coins. What is "Natural" versus "Artificial" versus "Accelerated"? If you do this to a coin that a TPG has body bagged for being cleaned is that such a bad thing? What if the TPG grades it then? Who's the hypocrite then?
Is this any different then end-roll toning? Or tab toning from the old Commem holders? Or from old Raymond holders? Where do you draw the line.
<< <i>What is the difference of this coin sitting ona a anpkin and a Morgan laying against the canvas bag? Are checmicals used? Hello, there are chemcial processes around us eveyday that affect coins. What is "Natural" versus "Artificial" versus "Accelerated"? If you do this to a coin that a TPG has body bagged for being cleaned is that such a bad thing? What if the TPG grades it then? Who's the hypocrite then?
Is this any different then end-roll toning? Or tab toning from the old Commem holders? Or from old Raymond holders? Where do you draw the line. >>
must all come down to intent....where's the thought police when you need em?
<< <i>Paper pulping process (aka kraft process) is what produced the hydrogen sulphide gas BTW. No different than envelope toning IMHO. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraft_process >>
Wow. Facts. Cool. Thanks, Jerry
And probably my last thoughts on the AT/NT issues but I can't promise that. In my opinion this experiment has shown two things:
1. It pointed out that there is a huge grey area between what people think of as AT and NT. To have a logical and complete system of rules for deciding NT/AT you have to address this grey area and you come back to the classic question, where do you draw the line?
2. Although I don't know Bruceswar, it is obvious he is respected and trusted here. If someone with less respcect (perhaps me, being relatively new) had done it, there might have been a lot of suspicion cast my way. Bruceeswar also did a good job making it clear the coin wouldn't be on the market (maybe he'll even put that in his will). But AT vs NT decisions are greatly influenced by who presents the coin. A "highly respected" dealer/collector is much more likely to get a favorable ruling.
<< <i>I also think that Taco Bell's recycled napkin are the key, other fast food joints use bleached white paper. all the taco bells i go to use the brown recycled ones, defintely the key. My question is did you store them on a windosill, on a counter? warm/cold environment? very curious as to what factors acclerated the toning process.
Leo >>
In a cabinet wrapped in the napkin. Its been there since March or so... Dallas, Tx Area...
<< <i>I also think that Taco Bell's recycled napkin are the key, other fast food joints use bleached white paper. all the taco bells i go to use the brown recycled ones, defintely the key. My question is did you store them on a windosill, on a counter? warm/cold environment? very curious as to what factors acclerated the toning process.
Leo >>
In a cabinet wrapped in the napkin. Its been there since March or so... Dallas, Tx Area... >>
I have a couple of blast white ef 45 silver coins wrapped in the taco bell napkin sitting on a rock in a water fall, under a lamp. No changes after 30 days
AT vs. NT can't be based on solely on intent........"I've had a couple of halves in a Wayte Raymond page sitting in the window for over two years - and nothing." There's certainly intent there.
On acceleration? I've dropped some coins in Acetone to get rid of PVC....left them there too long & they toned! Not my intension, but it was accelerated....so AT?
Brucewar, nice experiment, but I wonder how many new 'toners' are going to start showing up on eBay in six months? Personally, I buy what I like & can afford. That means between a white coin & a toned coin, the white ones a better value...IMO.
I guess I'm just silly, I tend to view coins as items with a history & would rather have one with an untamptered history, but don't view cleaned, damaged or AT'd as ruined, it's just part of their history. Folks here collect holed coins, or Hobo nickels....are these not ruined coins? But still they're loved. Is it that we're upset that someone is trying to make a buck from altering coins? As we saw, this is not always the case.
I am sure many collectors have tried to see what would happen to coins when they're baked, soaked, shaked & who knows what else. And I'm sure the vast majority have been horrific failures & the person has given up trying to experiment
I am sure people are trying this. Some will sell them, some will not. I just hope a full explaination with each coin sold is givin. I know it will be not be but...
<< <i>You say the coin isn't for sale. What about the napkin??? >>
Napkin is not for sale. >>
The napkin is now famous. Feel free to put it on ebay and collect your just rewards. The buyer will be forever watched by the hounds here and won't be able to sell AT coins. Go for it!!!
<< <i>You say the coin isn't for sale. What about the napkin??? >>
Napkin is not for sale. >>
The napkin is now famous. Feel free to put it on ebay and collect your just rewards. The buyer will be forever watched by the hounds here and won't be able to sell AT coins. Go for it!!!
--Jerry >>
Now thats funny! I might just do that as a funny auction! LOL... Ok maybe not but it would be funny.
I have coins that I received/purchased in 1978 that are in Whitman albums. Those albums must be made of good stuff, because none of them have EVER toned, not even one bit. I have experimented with Kennedy's in brown envelopes on a hot windowsill. No toning there after 3 years. Coins don't seem to tone naturally, at least not in less than 30 years. I view nearly ALL toned coins less than 30 years old as AT. YMMV. I have come up with a process using a chemical no longer being sold that will tone a coin in 1 minute. Would I ever try to sell those coins? No, never. I carry them in my pocket and show them to people so they can see what AT looks like in one form. After about a month, the toning gets rubbed off and I start over. Do I believe any coins are NT? Yes, some bag-toned Morgans and other older coins. Do I believe a clad coin from after 1968 that is toned is NT? Never. Without the silver and copper content together, there can be no NT. I have hundreds of clad coins that are proof of that. No toning.
Jonathan
I have been a collector for over mumbly-five years. I learn something new every day.
I put some clad proofs in Whitman and Intercept Shield albums at same time, when the Intercept Albums first hit the market. The ones in the old Whitman album are bright and clear to this very day. Ones in Intercept Album have hazed over and some have toned yellow and/or blue.
I'm pretty sure it's the cardboard, which is also made using the kraft process. Older albums have probably just off-gased all the trapped H2S, while new paper tends to still have a little of that paper mill "rotten egg" smell to it. So I guess if you want album toning go for a new stinky album and not an old Wayte Raymond that's been airing out for a couple decades.
<< <i>I also think that Taco Bell's recycled napkin are the key, other fast food joints use bleached white paper. all the taco bells i go to use the brown recycled ones, defintely the key. My question is did you store them on a windosill, on a counter? warm/cold environment? very curious as to what factors acclerated the toning process.
Leo >>
This holds alot of truth. I have some other "junk" coins on my desk sitting on napkins so they don't scrape against the desk. Some have been on there longer than my half was in the napkin and no change. White napkins from Taco Bueno Maybe? I forgot. But the point is Taco Bell Napkins are Brown. Wendy's works as well I think. Another Board member had one in a Wendy''s Napkin that was taking on some color. Those are yellow.
I've been so inspired by this thread that I got extra napkins (the unbleached kind) from my local pizza place to experiment with. If the coins turn out nicely, I'll be willing to sell directions to the place.
<< <i>I've been so inspired by this thread that I got extra napkins (the unbleached kind) from my local pizza place to experiment with. If the coins turn out nicely, I'll be willing to sell directions to the place. >>
Comments
<< <i>AT all day long for me, that blue just looks very suspect.
-Amanda >>
In hand I doubt you would say its AT....
<< <i>if that coin hits the market, I hope someone sees them swirly gouges in the reverse.... who cares about the color ? .... it's damaged and the author told us long ago, it ain't for sale and I believe him. (for now)
This coin is not going up for sale. I never intended to sale it, and still don't. This coin is 100% problem coin due to its scratches.
Is this any different then end-roll toning? Or tab toning from the old Commem holders? Or from old Raymond holders? Where do you draw the line.
Looking for Denmark 1874 20-Kroner. Please offer.
<< <i>What is the difference of this coin sitting ona a anpkin and a Morgan laying against the canvas bag? Are checmicals used? Hello, there are chemcial processes around us eveyday that affect coins. What is "Natural" versus "Artificial" versus "Accelerated"? If you do this to a coin that a TPG has body bagged for being cleaned is that such a bad thing? What if the TPG grades it then? Who's the hypocrite then?
Is this any different then end-roll toning? Or tab toning from the old Commem holders? Or from old Raymond holders? Where do you draw the line. >>
must all come down to intent....where's the thought police when you need em?
BTW, Cool experiment and presentation of the results. Thanks!
collections: Maryland related coins & exonumia, 7070 Type set, and Video Arcade Tokens.
The Low Budget Y2K Registry Set
<< <i>Thanks goodness you stopped!!! Here's my "artist impression" of what it would have looked like in another 3 months...
BTW, Cool experiment and presentation of the results. Thanks! >>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraft_process
<< <i>Paper pulping process (aka kraft process) is what produced the hydrogen sulphide gas BTW. No different than envelope toning IMHO. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraft_process >>
Wow. Facts. Cool. Thanks, Jerry
And probably my last thoughts on the AT/NT issues but I can't promise that. In my opinion this experiment has shown two things:
1. It pointed out that there is a huge grey area between what people think of as AT and NT. To have a logical and complete system of rules for deciding NT/AT you have to address this grey area and you come back to the classic question, where do you draw the line?
2. Although I don't know Bruceswar, it is obvious he is respected and trusted here. If someone with less respcect (perhaps me, being relatively new) had done it, there might have been a lot of suspicion cast my way. Bruceeswar also did a good job making it clear the coin wouldn't be on the market (maybe he'll even put that in his will). But AT vs NT decisions are greatly influenced by who presents the coin. A "highly respected" dealer/collector is much more likely to get a favorable ruling.
Anyawy, great job.
--jerry
<< <i>You say the coin isn't for sale. What about the napkin??? >>
Napkin is not for sale.
<< <i>I also think that Taco Bell's recycled napkin are the key, other fast food joints use bleached white paper. all the taco bells i go to use the brown recycled ones, defintely the key. My question is did you store them on a windosill, on a counter? warm/cold environment? very curious as to what factors acclerated the toning process.
Leo >>
In a cabinet wrapped in the napkin. Its been there since March or so... Dallas, Tx Area...
<< <i>
<< <i>I also think that Taco Bell's recycled napkin are the key, other fast food joints use bleached white paper. all the taco bells i go to use the brown recycled ones, defintely the key. My question is did you store them on a windosill, on a counter? warm/cold environment? very curious as to what factors acclerated the toning process.
Leo >>
In a cabinet wrapped in the napkin. Its been there since March or so... Dallas, Tx Area... >>
Don't forget the glass of water
under a lamp. No changes after 30 days
Its only an experiment meant to educate. Right?
Unfortunately, some might consider this an opportunity and act upon it.
I'll try it with a VF 1922 peace dollar. A "worthless" coin, but am I wrong to do this? I'm very curious now.
I like this style of toning on Morgans and other coins. Many of my Morgans possess rim toning. All of them are slabbed.
They are market acceptable and some probably toned a blue-purple color while in the slabs (since many are in older ANA/PNG/ANACS slabs).
I believe my coins are NT, but after seeing this, I don't really know what NT or AT really means.
Accelerated toning is intentional. Unless it is accidental. See, there's contradiction in all of this.
Did my coins' toning accelerate due to the paper in the slab insert? Is that AT, NT, intentional, market acceptable, accidental?
One can accidentally leave a coin on or in a napkin or paper bag and forget it. Is the resultant toning AT or NT?
Is it natural? What about intentionally wearing down a coin by carrying it in your pocketl? Why would one do that?
What is the object of the action? Education or manipulation?
Just more to ponder while trying to stay afloat in this usually wonderful hobby.
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
On acceleration? I've dropped some coins in Acetone to get rid of PVC....left them there too long & they toned! Not my intension, but it was accelerated....so AT?
Brucewar, nice experiment, but I wonder how many new 'toners' are going to start showing up on eBay in six months?
Personally, I buy what I like & can afford. That means between a white coin & a toned coin, the white ones a better value...IMO.
I guess I'm just silly, I tend to view coins as items with a history & would rather have one with an untamptered history, but don't view cleaned, damaged or AT'd as ruined, it's just part of their history.
Folks here collect holed coins, or Hobo nickels....are these not ruined coins? But still they're loved.
Is it that we're upset that someone is trying to make a buck from altering coins?
As we saw, this is not always the case.
I am sure many collectors have tried to see what would happen to coins when they're baked, soaked, shaked & who knows what else.
And I'm sure the vast majority have been horrific failures & the person has given up trying to experiment
JMO
Neat experiment
<< <i>
<< <i>You say the coin isn't for sale. What about the napkin??? >>
Napkin is not for sale. >>
The napkin is now famous. Feel free to put it on ebay and collect your just rewards. The buyer will be forever watched by the hounds here and won't be able to sell AT coins. Go for it!!!
--Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You say the coin isn't for sale. What about the napkin??? >>
Napkin is not for sale. >>
The napkin is now famous. Feel free to put it on ebay and collect your just rewards. The buyer will be forever watched by the hounds here and won't be able to sell AT coins. Go for it!!!
--Jerry >>
Now thats funny! I might just do that as a funny auction! LOL... Ok maybe not but it would be funny.
<< <i>No one should pay a premium for toning.
Neat experiment
I disagree there. People always have and always will.
<< <i>This coin is not going up for sale. I never intended to sale it, and still don't. This coin is 100% problem coin due to its scratches. >>
I am sure many of the tone-addicted collectors are willing to overlook the scratches.
Do I believe any coins are NT? Yes, some bag-toned Morgans and other older coins. Do I believe a clad coin from after 1968 that is toned is NT? Never. Without the silver and copper content together, there can be no NT. I have hundreds of clad coins that are proof of that. No toning.
Jonathan
I'm pretty sure it's the cardboard, which is also made using the kraft process. Older albums have probably just off-gased all the trapped H2S, while new paper tends to still have a little of that paper mill "rotten egg" smell to it. So I guess if you want album toning go for a new stinky album and not an old Wayte Raymond that's been airing out for a couple decades.
Just a great thread and a wonderful experiment.
<< <i>I also think that Taco Bell's recycled napkin are the key, other fast food joints use bleached white paper. all the taco bells i go to use the brown recycled ones, defintely the key. My question is did you store them on a windosill, on a counter? warm/cold environment? very curious as to what factors acclerated the toning process.
Leo >>
This holds alot of truth. I have some other "junk" coins on my desk sitting on napkins so they don't scrape against the desk. Some have been on there longer than my half was in the napkin and no change. White napkins from Taco Bueno Maybe? I forgot. But the point is Taco Bell Napkins are Brown. Wendy's works as well I think. Another Board member had one in a Wendy''s Napkin that was taking on some color. Those are yellow.
<< <i>Just a great thread and a wonderful experiment. >>
YES, very good post !
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>I've been so inspired by this thread that I got extra napkins (the unbleached kind) from my local pizza place to experiment with. If the coins turn out nicely, I'll be willing to sell directions to the place.
Thats funny....