Why does artificial toning bother you?

Blackhawk

After reading threads for the last few days, I feel that I must add my two cents on the subject...

What bothers you the most in the MOC situation? Personally, I have a problem with someone toning coins and selling them as original, but only because they're lying about the originality. The artificially toned coins aren't the big issue. I have bought toned coins in the past for stupid money...not because I thought that the purchases were an opportunity to make money, but because I liked the look of the coins. The same can be said of blast white coins in older series. Do you really believe that they are 100+ years old and have never toned at all, even when stored by some of the old methods that were certainly not like an Intercept Shield holder? Most of these white coins have been dipped to remove the toning that was on them...much of it probably not very appealing to the eyes of many collectors. What dippers are doing is making the coins market acceptable...and dipping is accepted by most in the hobby. The same can be said of those who know how to tone coins with results that appear to be natural and eye appealing. Sure it's fake, but in many cases market acceptable. If you buy them, you should do so because they appeal to you as a collector for money that you believe is fair. If you spend moon money on toners, you probably aren't just buying them because the colors make you happy...you believe that the color enhances their value - that's why this issue gets people so mad, there's a lot of money involved. In my opinion, buy coins that make you happy to own, whether they be white BU examples, original VFs or toners and don't worry so much about AT/NT. If there wasn't a market for these coins, there wouldn't be people trying to figure out how to produce them. The controversy has helped in one regard though...collectors will go into shops and shows with both eyes open.

ziggy29

Why does painting over the original surfaces of a 250-year-old piece of colonial furniture bother antique collectors?

Or stripping off the original finish of the furniture (like dipping), for that matter?

Collectors like unmessed with original surfaces, be it coins or antiques or other collectibles.

Blackhawk

Sure they like unmessed with stuff, but once someone owns something, they can do what they want with it...it's up to the next buyer to decide if they want it or not. There's an awful lot of people who are bellowing about this who buy coins that aren't original and they know it - they buy them because there "Market Acceptable". If given a chance, would you pay $1000.00 for an MS65 Morgan with original toning that makes the coin resemble a brown turd, or the same money for a bright white coin that has been undoubtfully dipped. Most would pick the dipped coin, and as a matter of fact TPGs would probably give the coin with the undesireable toning a hit on the grade because of it. That's why a lot of people who like originality would just as soon go back to technical grading as opposed to the market acceptable grading that seems to be the norm now.

RedTiger

It doesn't "bother" me per se. However, just like when I learned that the top grading services routinely holder dipped coins, that a large percentage of white silver coins have been dipped, that a growing percentage of shiny gold has been dipped, I do look at coins with a more educated eye.

I have absolute confidence that a large percentage of toners that have been holdered and showing up in large numbers during the past year or two are being made today. There is no other logical reasonable explanation. There is enough convincing objective evidence from credible neutral sources. Looking to the future the number of these newly toned coins will double or triple again in the next year or two. The profits being made are sometimes obscene 2x, 5x sometimes 10x. Some of the people buying are dumb money paying stupid prices for pretty toners thinking these coins are coming out of hiding from 50 years of careful storage.

As long as I understand all the above, it doesn't bother me. As long as new collectors understand that many of the coins in holders are being made today, and more will be made in the coming years, go ahead and buy if you like. Same deal with stripped and dipped or puttied gold. Same deal with dipped blast white 19th century silver. Go in with your eyes open, don't be naive just because some dealer or collector with a pretty icon says it is easy to spot artificial toning, or that 98% or 99% of coins in holders are natural. I guess it depends on what they mean by natural. If they mean naturally made from a white coin during the past year or two, I might agree.

TwoSides2aCoin

my two cents are :
I never much liked toners (CT or TT), so I dumped 'em early on. The problem is that they are impure (to me), just as "DIPPED" coins are. They are profoundly affected by temperature or chemicals. From a scientific and purely analytical view, these are TAINTED, at best. (AT & NT) Sure, one is natural from envelopes, albums, end rolls exposed to elements, or even the old canvas bags. This is known by EXPERTS, yet accepted. Big money is spent not on TECHNICAL elements, but EMOTIONAL ones (what's new ? )
No Toners should grade higher than MS65/PF65. Eye appeal should be reserved for those technical elements in grading (STRIKE DETAIL, LUSTER), and not some "FEELING" one gets when he sees sugarplums dancing in his head.
So, the more toning it gets, the more impure the coin. Now what would happen ? PF65 ? MS65 ?
Wild toners with a chance to get cracked out and knocked down a grade !


am I too harsh ?

ziggy says it pretty good, too.

Blackhawk

If toned coins can not grade higher than MS65, why can dipped coins that have been changed from their original state? Maybe only original coins, whether they're toned turds or not, should only be graded higher. That's the problem here...when you're talking older MS coins, in some series there aren't a whole lot of coins that haven't been fiddled with in some way.

TwoSides2aCoin

it's a vicious circle, huh ?

I don't know the answer, I see a problem and try to find solutions. I don't make the rules, nor set the prices

aficionado

This runs in cycles. Soon people will be looking for the Non dipped, Non toned, semi dual coin because it will be scarce to have the original patena.

Like the furniture example, it might look good and be the thing to do Now, but down the road, its
" if you didn't mess with it, it'd be worth twice as much ".

mhammerman

Does anyone remember what MS stands for...?

If that's what the slab states then that should be what the coin is. If someone wants to have a new grading standard like FW then they should create a new designation.

mgoodm3

Makes me realize that it probably a bigger problem than most of us realize. It means that I will probably stay away from the gaudy stuff and stick to my favorite dark brown copper (paying a premium for surfaces and not color)

RYK

I think that people are bothererd more that they were deceived in the present example than that the coin was AT. People are readily buying coins that are questionable.

ABC123

Nothing Artificial bothers me---Hugh Hefner

jpkinla

I typically don't like ANY toning so the answer is easy.....

RedTiger

<< <i>If toned coins can not grade higher than MS65, why can dipped coins that have been changed from their original state? Maybe only original coins, whether they're toned turds or not, should only be graded higher. That's the problem here...when you're talking older MS coins, in some series there aren't a whole lot of coins that haven't been fiddled with in some way. >>



What are you asking? Toned coins can and do routinely grade above MS65 as do dipped gold and silver coins, and puttied gold coins. If you are one of those that say 90%+ of coins have been fiddled with, some have been treated harshly, some have been treated gently. Some were treated with in the interest of conservation, some with the intent to deceive and ring the cash register. In my mind there is a big difference between dipping a coin to remove haze that came from the plastic mint packaging, vs. artificially toning a coin in the hopes of a ten bagger vs. putting putty or using a laser on a coin to cover up marks to increase the grade. If a person likes dipped coins or AT coins in TPG holders or even lasered or puttied coins, by all means have a field day, but please know that the appearance has often been created in the past year or two.

ksteelheader

<< <i>After reading threads for the last few days, I feel that I must add my two cents on the subject...

What bothers you the most in the MOC situation? Personally, I have a problem with someone toning coins and selling them as original, but only because they're lying about the originality. The artificially toned coins aren't the big issue. I have bought toned coins in the past for stupid money...not because I thought that the purchases were an opportunity to make money, but because I liked the look of the coins. The same can be said of blast white coins in older series. Do you really believe that they are 100+ years old and have never toned at all, even when stored by some of the old methods that were certainly not like an Intercept Shield holder? Most of these white coins have been dipped to remove the toning that was on them...much of it probably not very appealing to the eyes of many collectors. What dippers are doing is making the coins market acceptable...and dipping is accepted by most in the hobby. The same can be said of those who know how to tone coins with results that appear to be natural and eye appealing. Sure it's fake, but in many cases market acceptable. If you buy them, you should do so because they appeal to you as a collector for money that you believe is fair. If you spend moon money on toners, you probably aren't just buying them because the colors make you happy...you believe that the color enhances their value - that's why this issue gets people so mad, there's a lot of money involved. In my opinion, buy coins that make you happy to own, whether they be white BU examples, original VFs or toners and don't worry so much about AT/NT. If there wasn't a market for these coins, there wouldn't be people trying to figure out how to produce them. The controversy has helped in one regard though...collectors will go into shops and shows with both eyes open. >>






<< <i>controversy has helped in one regard though...collectors will go into shops and shows with both eyes open. >>



They sure will. The majoruty will be looking for old holders so they can take a try at toning them in the holder.

Blackhawk

<< <i>They sure will. The majoruty will be looking for old holders so they can take a try at toning them in the holder. >>

Sad but true.

BillJones

Natural toning gets into the “stuff happens” category. It does represent a kind of damage or deterioration, but when it’s attractive and the coin is properly stored, it is both desirable and stable, at least within the average collector’s lifetime.

At least nine times out of ten artificial toning can be detected and represents INTENTIONAL damage with an eye toward getting a higher price for the item. Unlike natural toning artificial toning can continue from somewhat unattractive through ugly to seriously ugly to seriously damaged. And if you try to dip it off, chances are it has eaten up enough of the mint surface to leave the coin damaged or at best lowered by a grade or two.

This goes back to the nature of scratches. Scratches that result from normal circulation or from bag marks are not desirable, but the fall into the “stuff happens” category. Collectors expect to see them on coins that grade less than the Gem conditions. INTENTIAL damage is something else. In that case someone damaged the coin on purpose, and most collectors find that unacceptable and worthy of a significant decrease in value.

Bear

Many AT coins are, in fact, quite beautiful. The reason I do not like

the idea of AT coins, is that it totally disrupts the system of added

value that toning imparts. When toned coins can be produced , on

demand, like widgets,The potential value and desireability falls, at least

for me. I suppose I still view collectors as being a part of a National body

of folks, preserving a part of the Nation's history. We select and safeguard

specemins of our coinage, in various grades, for the future generations to enjoy.

By doctors constantly toning, stripping, lazering, gassing, heating and adulterating

the surfaces of our coinage, they are cheating those collectors who will come on

stream in the future . Coin doctoring is apparently an ancient art, but never on the scale

that we see today.

Leiana

Artificial Toning bothers me for just that reason. It's artifical. It was added intentionally to deceive someone and turn a profit. Not to mention the coin it is ruining. Totally ethically wrong, in my opinion.

-Amanda

Myqqy

In the short term, it bothers me because of the deceit and lack of disclosure for the purpose of trying to score more money. In the long term, it bothers me because of the damage it adds to our efforts to preserve historical artifacts- we are just custodians for future collectors, and our capitalistic greed ignores our human responsibilities....

coinnut86

<< <i>Why does painting over the original surfaces of a 250-year-old piece of colonial furniture bother antique collectors?

Or stripping off the original finish of the furniture (like dipping), for that matter?

Collectors like unmessed with original surfaces, be it coins or antiques or other collectibles. >>



I guess when you put it like that

messydesk

What bothers me the most, be it dipping, toning, or tooling, is that people see this hobby as a way to get money from other people by conning them after messing with coins. Is all this artificial enhancement much of an issue on darkside stuff?

BAJJERFAN

The thing that would bother me about AT is the strong possibility that the toning will continue, resulting eventually in an ugly and/or damaged coin.

JJM

cuz it just aint right................

rec78

Does'nt bother me a bit-I avoid them.

Do you really believe that they are 100+ years old and have never toned at all, even when stored by some of the old methods that were certainly not like an Intercept Shield holder?

I do--i have some, and there are a lot of coins especially Morgans that haven't toned or been dipped.