.

szavori · August 29, 2006 1:10AM

OffMetal · August 29, 2006 1:13AM

ftp

Busted!

Louis · August 29, 2006 1:15AM

ziggy29 · August 29, 2006 1:15AM

Didn't make much money. He might have *lost* money if you look at all the coins where the buy and sell sides are known.

He didn't SELL OUT his reputation. He GAVE it away.

LouisCamp · August 29, 2006 1:17AM

Crap;

All in all, he didn't make too much money on this. Seems like a lot of risk for very little upside.

What a shame.

Lou

nankraut · August 29, 2006 1:17AM

Busy as a beaver, eh?

Bunker · August 29, 2006 1:20AM

I agree...he ruined a lot of coins and in most cases made very little money or lost money doing it. What a POS

Longacre · August 29, 2006 1:33AM

If chemistry could only be used for good, rather than for evil...

gsaguy · August 29, 2006 1:35AM

<<He didn't SELL OUT his reputation. He GAVE it away.>>

Pretty much.

TWQG · August 29, 2006 1:38AM

<< All in all, he didn't make too much money on this. Seems like a lot of risk for very little upside. >>

Some of his Washingtons were plenty expensive.

seanq · August 29, 2006 1:38AM

The job he did on that 1879-S is *amazing*. How on earth did he manage to get a crescent to remain untoned like this without removing the coin from the holder?! (This is a rhetorical question, not a call for a recipe).

Before:

After:

If I were a collector of toned Morgans I'd be looking for a pair of clean boxers right about now.

Sean Reynolds

(Edited to add the before pic)

Leiana · August 29, 2006 1:38AM

That does not at all make sense to me. He took a bath on the first one and barely made up sellers fees on the other ones.

-Amanda

ss350camaro · August 29, 2006 1:41AM

Wow! A sad documentation

RotatedRainbows · August 29, 2006 1:41AM

Not surprising since the type of color which is created artificially cannot match the real thing on most coins, at least when it comes to old silver (do not know about copper).

BobaFett72 · August 29, 2006 1:42AM

tones the coins with his chemistry set, sells the coins for LESS than what he paid for them, doesnt make a lick of sense.
Reputation ruined, coins ruined.

Rampage · August 29, 2006 1:43AM

Well, it looks to me like he got his story backwards. HE is the one buying white coins and selling them for a small profit. He did say he was selling white coins and buying toned coins for a small profit. I hope he can sleep well at night know how much fraud and deception he caused. If someone has enough money tied up in coins purchased from him, maybe they will decide to take him to court and make his life miserable for some time.

NumisOxide · August 29, 2006 1:44AM

It doesn't look like he made a killing on the coins, just killed the coins, though.

Wolf359 · August 29, 2006 1:46AM

The dark side of me says he was experimenting before he moved on to bigger
things.

Bochiman · August 29, 2006 1:47AM

Nothing needs to make sense....sometimes people do things for knowledge/experimentation/learning.
Whether or not it may have progressed to money.....who knows?

66RB · August 29, 2006 1:49AM

I love it. Really , I do.

Keep on beatin' the guy while he's down.

He has apologized, which is more than can be said for others who have been 'outed' in the past. Yes, he dug himself deeper by telling the story he did. I believe he was very uncomfortable in being found out and he showed himself as not being a very good liar. Tells me he doesn't have much experience in being deceitful.

Maybe he should have explained it as uncovering the color, and how he was writing a big research paper explaining that this was okay.
We haven't forgotten that comment now have we?

How many of you asked, no, DEMANDED, that EagleEye and Gmarguli across the street, rid themselves from the hobby?

ziggy29 · August 29, 2006 1:51AM

<< How many of you asked, no, DEMANDED, that EagleEye and Gmarguli across the street, rid themselves from the hobby? >>

If you're referring to Rick's grading a lightly cleaned coin as MS-63, he's not the one who performed the cleaning. You may not agree with that standard, but he didn't ruin the coin.

66RB · August 29, 2006 2:00AM

Ziggy, that's not at all what I'm referring to.

I'm alluding to the Double Standard I seem to sense here.

Craton · August 29, 2006 2:03AM

<< The job he did on that 1879-S is *amazing*. How on earth did he manage to get a crescent to remain untoned like this without removing the coin from the holder?! (This is a rhetorical question, not a call for a recipe).

Before:

After:

If I were a collector of toned Morgans I'd be looking for a pair of clean boxers right about now.

Sean Reynolds

(Edited to add the before pic) >>

I saw that and wondered the same thing Sean. I wonder if he will confess to opening the slabs or not. It's hard to believe that this could be done without opening but maybe he has a way of opening a seam and inserting pieces of paper to block the unknown contaminant?

ss350camaro · August 29, 2006 2:19AM

<< Still searching for the corresponding sell side to these:

PCGS 8149867 (1885 PCGS MS63 Blast White Blazer - 1st Gen Hldr #1695):

MOC buy

MOC sell:

PCGS 3042391 (1887 Morgan Dollar "Old RATTLER" Holder PCGS MS64):

MOC buy

MOC sell: >>

These are surely 'in process' and expected to become available soon.

Outhaul · August 29, 2006 2:20AM

hootchiegirl · August 29, 2006 2:24AM

me thinks this will have an impact on toners

Cladiator · August 29, 2006 2:30AM

<<

>>

Ok people. The Forum King has decided that we've talked about this enough so everyone hush up!

Idiocy...

ttown · August 29, 2006 2:32AM

There goes the rainbow coin market. I think one should be careful when buying colorful coins for a big markup.

MacCrimmon · August 29, 2006 2:33AM

<< Still searching for the corresponding buy side to these:

PCGS 5082184 (1885-O Morgan dollar PCGS MS 65):

MOC buy:

MOC sell

>>

Here's your 1885-O (#5082184) listed above. From Teletrade.

Outhaul · August 29, 2006 2:35AM

<< Ok people. The Forum King has decided that we've talked about this enough so everyone hush up! >>

Ah...apparently only I'm entitled to my opinion so long as it agrees with yours.

Cladiator · August 29, 2006 2:37AM

<< 

<< Ok people. The Forum King has decided that we've talked about this enough so everyone hush up! >>

Ah...apparently only I'm entitled to my opinion so long as it agrees with yours. >>

I'll just paste in my reply to this from the other thread..........

Nice try but wrong. You are trying to enforce your opinion on others by attempting to limit the amount of discussion on the topic.

I am simply saying if you don't want to discuss it don't open the threads. I'm not trying to force anyone to read the threads.

It's a free country so don't limit other people's discussions. Don't partake in them if you're not interested.

MajorDuty · August 29, 2006 2:51AM

<< After:

>>

I hope I'm not the only one who thinks this coin is butt freaking ugly. Even if it was genuine, it is butt freaking ugly. I know each to their own but, dang, that's butt freaking ugly.

ABC123 · August 29, 2006 2:51AM

Life is Full of Larceny---Sweeny Todd---get used to it !

szavori · August 29, 2006 3:00AM

mozin · August 29, 2006 3:08AM

My guess is the best looking doctored coins were sold elsewhere. I still don't think the coins were removed from their PCGS holders. There must be some kind of a light source used to tone the coins through the plastic. Laying another coin over the encapsulated coin while shooting with the light source could well account for the crescent shape toning. Is there some kind of laser light that might tone coins?

ColonialCoinUnion · August 29, 2006 3:12AM

<< My guess is the best looking doctored coins were sold elsewhere. >>

I tend to agree - these sort of look like the practice coins.

messydesk · August 29, 2006 3:20AM

I'm not surprised he lost money on these. I don't think any of them is toned attractively enough to warrant a premium for the toning, and some, like the 79-S Morgan, I find to be ugly. Also, the insert looks paler in the "after" pictures, like you'd expect from baking paper.

Aegis3 · August 29, 2006 5:29AM

<< The job he did on that 1879-S is *amazing*. How on earth did he manage to get a crescent to remain untoned like this without removing the coin from the holder?! (This is a rhetorical question, not a call for a recipe).

After:

>>

I suspect, that after a year or two, if someone were to post this picture here (perhaps disguised w/ a different coin for the obverse) and ask if it was AT or NT, there would be a lot of votes for NT. (Let's say at least 40%, and probably over half.)

LastExitInNY · August 29, 2006 5:33AM

<<

>>

LOL too funny

ILikeMercs · August 29, 2006 5:56AM

<< The dark side of me says he was experimenting before he moved on to bigger
things. >>

wow, I agree with Wolf..............

crito · August 29, 2006 5:56AM

It's not a perfect curve, that's probably just as far as the gas got before it reacted completely. Edge of another coin increases reactive surface area but it's essentially the same process happening. There are too many high and low points for a cresent to be caused by an airtight seal between two coins. It's because all the H2S reacts and there's not enough left to continue toning the coin.

ILikeMercs · August 29, 2006 5:57AM

<< 

<< After:

>>

I hope I'm not the only one who thinks this coin is butt freaking ugly. Even if it was genuine, it is butt freaking ugly. I know each to their own but, dang, that's butt freaking ugly. >>

very ugly............

notwilight · August 29, 2006 6:02AM

<< 

<< The job he did on that 1879-S is *amazing*. How on earth did he manage to get a crescent to remain untoned like this without removing the coin from the holder?! (This is a rhetorical question, not a call for a recipe). After:

>>

I suspect, that after a year or two, if someone were to post this picture here (perhaps disguised w/ a different coin for the obverse) and ask if it was AT or NT, there would be a lot of votes for NT. (Let's say at least 40%, and probably over half.) >>

I'd say it would be about 50/50 because it is indeed a coin flip. There is no real way to tell. Remember, he was caught by matching numbers, not by some "expert" looking at his work and fingering him.

--Jerry

Newmismatist · August 30, 2006 2:18AM

Some of those coins have clearly been removed form the holders and then put back in after they were AT'd - In order to get the crescent, a portion of the coin would have to be covered by something - probably another Silver Dollar. Those coins with the vibrent crescent colors at the edge on both sides are usuall the product of heat - (edge heated and the toning forms on both sides - can also be "assisted" with chemicals) - As the plastic would melt if you tried to heat it to get that 2 sided edge toning, coins with that look would have to be removed from the old rattler, then toned and then put back in the holder and resealed - AND - note this - a coin with the same date could be substituted - so there could be a double fraud - he could have bought an MS65 coin (say a common 79-S) and replaced the white MS65 coin with an AT 79-S of a lower grade (say a MS64) - there's a $100+ difference just in the grade - and it's harder to grade a toned coin because the toning can hide grade limiting marks.

This whole thing really stinks and MOC has done serious damage to not just the toned coin market (though those of us who have in depth knowledge can usually pick out the AT crap) but to the Slabbed market as well - think about it - can you rely on ANY coin in an old rattler to be the same coin as when it was returned from PCGS?

A very sad commentary on the Ethics and morality of MOC. There may be serious legal liability on his part to, as all of this appears to be done intentially and arguably with the intend to defraud others - Whether someone pursues this or not will be up to anyone who has purchased MOCs AT'd coins. But, the most likely entity to seek legal recourse would be PCGS - as this could damage their multi-million dollar per year grading business.

greghansen · August 30, 2006 2:30AM

The dark side of me says he was experimenting before he moved on to bigger

Well I think your 'dark side' is right! His conduct after being exposed does not contain even a hint that he was going to stop on his own. To the contrary he made up a wild story to try keep his conduct secret...and then threatened those that continued to question his veracity. IMO, somewhere along the line, he had crossed the line in his own mind and convinced himself what he was doing was O.K.

Once he crossed that mental line...he wasn't going back...he was going to keep doing it. I'm not convinced he won't do it in the future with or without the assistance of 3rd parties to submit his coins. As I mentioned on another thread...I don't believe he is the least bit sorry about what his CONDUCT...I only think he is sorry he got CAUGHT!

notwilight · August 30, 2006 2:35AM

<< The dark side of me says he was experimenting before he moved on to bigger Well I think your 'dark side' is right! His conduct after being exposed does not contain even a hint that he was going to stop on his own. To the contrary he made up a wild story to try keep his conduct secret...and then threatened those that continued to question his veracity. IMO, somewhere along the line, he had crossed the line in his own mind and convinced himself what he was doing was O.K. Once he crossed that mental line...he wasn't going back...he was going to keep doing it. I'm not convinced he won't do it in the future with or without the assistance of 3rd parties to submit his coins. As I mentioned on another thread...I don't believe he is the least bit sorry about what his CONDUCT...I only think he is sorry he got CAUGHT! >>

That doesn't add up to me. If he truly was experimenting before moving on to something bigger then he wouldn't have taken a chance on getting caught by selling practice coins prior to the "big one". I believe professionals planning for a big heist will likely practice but they will destroy or at least hide all evidence of the practice until they big one is over. They don't put their practice on ebay. --Jerry

Artist · August 30, 2006 2:44AM

<< The dark side of me says he was experimenting before he moved on to bigger
things. >>

Wolf has a dark side?

CaptHenway · August 30, 2006 2:59AM

Boy, that 1879-S sure got hit with an ugly stick.........

Petarded · August 30, 2006 12:13PM

...I only think he is sorry he got CAUGHT!

greghansen...you are 100% correct.....he is a miserable POS for duping not only unsuspecting novices, but also duping people that actually looked to him for guidance and his knowledge, not to mention the other scumbag 'dealer' he sold them to (you know, the one he blamed for selling the one in question to him) . I can't believe ANYONE on these boards would consider buying from him. I have seen comments stating he was pleasant to deal with, good service...OF COURSE HE DID THESE THINGS..HE WANTED TO RIP YOU OFF!!! Hell, we ought to honor his departing with a LAST STRIKE, or STRIKE THREE designation...YOUR'E OUT! MOC, I hope you are bothered by this forever...look at what some of your friends are now saying about you.....friends no more, but they are speaking volumes.....MOC has screwed the pooch.

edited to add: MOC, I agree with most comments in regard to the toning biting the big one....UGLY UGLY UGLY.....you should have really gotten better results if you knew your 'numismatic life' depended on it...but, c'est la vie......

SUPERCARCOINS · August 30, 2006 12:29PM

this issue ain`t leavin` till everyone`s heavin`

curly · August 30, 2006 12:51PM

<< I love it. Really , I do.

Keep on beatin' the guy while he's down.

He has apologized, which is more than can be said for others who have been 'outed' in the past. Yes, he dug himself deeper by telling the story he did. I believe he was very uncomfortable in being found out and he showed himself as not being a very good liar. Tells me he doesn't have much experience in being deceitful.

Maybe he should have explained it as uncovering the color, and how he was writing a big research paper explaining that this was okay.
We haven't forgotten that comment now have we?

How many of you asked, no, DEMANDED, that EagleEye and Gmarguli across the street, rid themselves from the hobby? >>

I believe there is a difference between removing gunk to expose color and then sending the coin off to be graded.....to using a coin that is already graded and then adding color. I (for one) accept Rick's explanation.

.

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