Lightside thread on ATing is a must-read.

1jester · August 28, 2006 10:43AM

An AT doctor was busted. Though it's a very long thread, I recommend reading the entire thing, along with all the links. It's completely germane to our field as prices rise across the board and TPGs are increasingly the norm on the Darkside, and there have already been highly suspect slabbed Darkside coins available on the market.

coinkat · August 28, 2006 10:45AM

I think I am just going to either wait for the mini-series or the Readers Digest condensed version...

Aethelred · August 28, 2006 11:17AM

<< I think I am just going to either wait for the mini-series or the Readers Digest condensed version...

>>

Reader's Digest version:

A 1904-O Dollar was sold on eBay in one of the old PCGS slabs, the coin in the photo was fully white. A short time later the same coin in th esame PCGS slab was sold on eBay again and this time it was rainbow toned!

I have know that this was going on for a long time but until today have not seen the smoking gun.

LINK TO AUCTION #1

LINK TO AUCTION #2

MacCrimmon · August 28, 2006 11:41AM

It's good to live in the DARK!!!

wybrit · August 28, 2006 12:39PM

I scanned the thread - it is a dismal tale no matter "whodunit."

JZrarities · August 28, 2006 12:43PM

He finally admitted he did it (by himself) in another thread.

TwoKopeiki · August 28, 2006 12:52PM

There are many books out right now, like "Coin Chemistry" by Weimar W. White (published 2004) for example, that talk about subjecting slabbed coins to high-sulphur environments and the resulting toning. I think the bigger shocker was that the "doctor" was a respected member of the forums. I would have to say that he sold his good reputation pretty cheap.

wybrit · August 28, 2006 8:37PM

He finally admitted he did it (by himself) in another thread.

I'm glad he did - that makes the other thread even more disturbing.

Edited: now that I read some of the posts in the "apology" thread, I think that the drivel that's in there eclipses the first thread - un-flippin' believable.

Tip of the iceberg - can't wait to see if other well-knowns are "outed."

mojoman · August 28, 2006 8:57PM

you would "think" he would have been more careful, now what about his other coins? have they been tampered with? all the coins he has sold?

Aethelred · August 28, 2006 9:21PM

The fact of the matter is that almost all coins have been tampered with in some way, at some point, to enhance their appearance. While this may be an extreem case, many toned silver coins have had help of some kind and almost all white coins have been dipped. Very close to 100% of early copper coins in high grade have been messed with. If you think that you do not have any coins in your collection that have been doctored, I am sorry to say that you are kidding yourself.

wybrit · August 28, 2006 9:33PM

The fact of the matter is that almost all coins have been tampered with in some way, at some point, to enhance their appearance. While this may be an extreem case, many toned silver coins have had help of some kind and almost all white coins have been dipped. Very close to 100% of early copper coins in high grade have been messed with. If you think that you do not have any coins in your collection that have been doctored, I am sorry to say that you are kidding yourself.

Sad, but true.

ajaan · August 28, 2006 9:40PM

Dipping is acceptable, toning a coin isn't.

Anyone for collecting beenie-babies?

newbiecollector · August 28, 2006 9:48PM

Hi folks. I have been following this topic for a while and find it a bit sad.

I don't know anything about how to AT and to be totally honest I am not sure what AT truely is........my ignorance I know.

I have some mordern eagles I bought a few years back from our on Aethelred..........totally UNC and in great little holders. Aethelred you may remember it.

I have noticed 1 of maybe 4 I have left is toning.....not blue but more golden aroung the Obv side. Now I haven't done anything to it but if I have stored it wrong (and the others are ok) is that AT?

I know many will think this is a foolish question but I mean it honestly.

ajaan · August 28, 2006 9:54PM

<< Now I haven't done anything to it but if I have stored it wrong (and the others are ok) is that AT? >>

Only if you try to get it slabbed and a TPG says so. Or, if the mob agrees it is.

No one can really define what is AT. A raw coin is purposely left a mahongany (sp?) desk. It turns a very attractive color. Is this AT? What if the coin was left on the desk accidentally? Is it now NT?

It's all BS to me.

Aethelred · August 28, 2006 9:56PM

Wayne,

It is natural for silver coins to tone over time. I have seen ASEs tone in well stored slabs. In fact all silver coins are at some point on a journey from blast white to black. You can slow that process down, but you can't stop it.

Aethelred · August 28, 2006 9:59PM

<< Only if you try to get it slabbed and a TPG says so. Or, if the mob agrees it is.

No one can really define what is AT. A raw coin is purposely left a mahongany (sp?) desk. It turns a very attractive color. Is this AT? What if the coin was left on the desk accidentally? Is it now NT?

It's all BS to me. >>

That is why we should buy what we like and feel good about and just enjoy owning it. There are people (most on the Lightside) who are worrying themselves into an early grave over this!

newbiecollector · August 28, 2006 10:02PM

Thanks.I really didn't know.

I have a "Voyagers Into history" set of ships coins I bought from the OZ mint..........most of the obv sides are turning VERY black....but not the rev..........really disappoints me.

I admit I have never been crazy about all the colors on coins but a nice, what seems to me real, golden toning I like

TwoKopeiki · August 28, 2006 10:04PM

<< Hi folks. I have been following this topic for a while and find it a bit sad.

I don't know anything about how to AT and to be totally honest I am not sure what AT truely is........my ignorance I know.

I have some mordern eagles I bought a few years back from our on Aethelred..........totally UNC and in great little holders. Aethelred you may remember it.

I have noticed 1 of maybe 4 I have left is toning.....not blue but more golden aroung the Obv side. Now I haven't done anything to it but if I have stored it wrong (and the others are ok) is that AT?

I know many will think this is a foolish question but I mean it honestly. >>

That's the debate raging right now. What exactly is AT? What is NT? In my opinion, toning is toning. It's the formation of chemical compounds on the surface of metal due to it's exposure to elements. You can't prevent it, unless you store your coins in vacuum (that should answer your question about your modern eagles, Wayne).

MacCrimmon · August 28, 2006 10:43PM

On the subject of AT related to ManofCoins (a synopsis):

1. His act was premeditated.
2. His act was a blatant attempt to defraud bidders under the imprimatur of PCGS (this is the most grievous point).
3. He fabricated a cover story; he lied.
4. He lied a second time; both times the lies were specious and laughable.
5. He "confessed".
6. The man no longer has ANY CREDIBILITY. People of his character will carry on in another venue, or simply in the shadows.

I could go on and on, but why bother, except to say, BE CAREFUL. The coin doctors are already invading the Darkside.....

3Mark · August 28, 2006 10:55PM

<< An AT doctor was busted. Though it's a very long thread, I recommend reading the entire thing, along with all the links. It's completely germane to our field as prices rise across the board and TPGs are increasingly the norm on the Darkside, and there have already been highly suspect slabbed Darkside coins available on the market.

>>

Can you tell us more about "highly suspect slabbed Darkside coins available on the market"? Do you have any examples of these? The few AT coins that I have seen on the darkside were raw and IMHO was done to hide problems with the coins.3Mark

coinpictures · August 28, 2006 10:56PM

It really does make you question what is AT versus NT.

From a theoretical standpoint, a dipped coin is A (lack of) T, right? And both PCGS and NGC have slabbed tens of thousands of dipped Morgan dollars over the years. The craze over toning (at least to its current extent) is fairly recent; at one point everybody wanted blast white coins. How many coins were ruined in the name of blast white?

I have a pair of very nice coins that I bought that had been dipped, and obviously so. Other than that, the detail on the coins is lovely. I've had them sitting in a wooden cigar box to retone for the last 5 months. Am I guilty of being a coin doctor? By the letter of the law, probably yes. But is this any more egregious than dipping a coin? If anything, from a certain standpoint, it's less artificial than dipping a coin. After all, the coins would naturally retone over time anyway, right? Just perhaps not in as short a timeframe.

Or is the distinction the use of chemicals? How about the proximity to sulfur (matches, etc.)?

Someone who bakes coins in an oven is a coin doctor, but leaving the coins in a 100-degree room to hasten the process isn't?

Profit motive?

Intent versus accident?

Too many gray areas.

Biggest problem I have is with MOC's lying about it. That and the jackass claiming to have proof of MOC's transgressions and then backpedaling faster than a member of the Clinton administration...

It's just sad all the way around.

TwoKopeiki · August 28, 2006 11:13PM

<< Biggest problem I have is with MOC's lying about it. That and the jackass claiming to have proof of MOC's transgressions and then backpedaling faster than a member of the Clinton administration...
>>

I agree with you.

cwt · August 28, 2006 11:54PM

>>

Can you tell us more about "highly suspect slabbed Darkside coins available on the market"? Do you have any examples of these? The few AT coins that I have seen on the darkside were raw and IMHO was done to hide problems with the coins.3Mark >>

Would this very rare halfpenny appearing in the upcoming Goldberg sale be an example of one?

1860 Halfpenny

3Mark · August 29, 2006 12:21AM

<< >>

Can you tell us more about "highly suspect slabbed Darkside coins available on the market"? Do you have any examples of these? The few AT coins that I have seen on the darkside were raw and IMHO was done to hide problems with the coins.3Mark >>

Would this very rare halfpenny appearing in the upcoming Goldberg sale be an example of one?

1860 Halfpenny >>

Are you saying that this coin is AT? How about the three copper coins that follow it in the auction? They have blue also. Do you think that the toning will influence the price? I think it is hard to paint everything with the liteside brush. BTW, I don't think the toning will effect the price of this coin.3Mark

MacCrimmon · August 29, 2006 12:22AM

<< >>

Can you tell us more about "highly suspect slabbed Darkside coins available on the market"? Do you have any examples of these? The few AT coins that I have seen on the darkside were raw and IMHO was done to hide problems with the coins.3Mark >>

Would this very rare halfpenny appearing in the upcoming Goldberg sale be an example of one?

1860 Halfpenny >>

Not hardly; that is the Norweb specimen. No one in their right mind would tone down a copper from RB or RED to get that. The colour on that coin is probably a much deeper blue than the image would indicate based on my past experience with GBs images versus the coins in hand.

WhiteTornado · August 29, 2006 1:03AM

This is my first post regarding this thread or the larger, associated thread on the Liteside. I'm going to have to side with Aethelred on this one. I think we have come to the point in numismatics where it's not AT vs NT anymore, it's a question of, does it have "market-acceptable toning/brightness", or not? I'm reminded of one of our favorite phrases, buy the coin, not the holder.

I would bet this kind of thing goes on in other collectibles markets. What about stamps? Couldn't someone find a potentially high-dollar issue with a very faint cancellation mark, then doctor it up so the mark is no longer visible? How about antique furniture? I'm sure someone somewhere has tried to retrofit a modern repair to an old piece, to make it look like it was an old repair. Perhaps those are crudely explained examples, but you get the point.

Let me add that I'm far from an expert, don't deal in high-dollar coins, and certainly don't do this for a living. The above is just my humble opinion as a collector.

shirohniichan · August 29, 2006 1:15AM

Gee whiz, this really makes me want to focus on new RCM issues so I don't have worry about artificial toning.

Let's see, I can get the baby Loonie, the Lucky Loonie bookmark...

keets · August 29, 2006 1:19AM

I could go on and on, but why bother, except to say, BE CAREFUL. The coin doctors are already invading the Darkside.....

no invasion, your enemy lurks among you all. it may be a friend and it may be a local or familiar dealer. therein lies the true sadness and ultimate deception. as i bemoan the self-serving motives of dealers and collectors at the U.S, Forum, i would also do here. name the names and forget about any allegiance you wrongly think you owe these people. if you can't do that, you really have no place crying crocodile tears about how this is harmful.

coinpictures · August 29, 2006 1:20AM

<< I would bet this kind of thing goes on in other collectibles markets. What about stamps? Couldn't someone find a potentially high-dollar issue with a very faint cancellation mark, then doctor it up so the mark is no longer visible? >>

Actually, this happens all the time in stamp collecting:

"Washing" a stamp to remove cancel or staining
Reperfing a stamp that may have been straight-edged
Reinforcement or pressing of creases
Repairing tears
Regumming stamps
Trimming perforations to simulate an imperforate or coil stamp
Perforating imperf stamps or proofs (in those instances where the perforated stamp is more scarce)

I don't think it has the same stigma that "doctoring" has in coin collecting. In fact, there are professional services that offer restoration options on stamps. They're expensive as hell, but are seen as legitimate.

PFC, APS, et al. will denote faults and rework on a certificate, and the buyer and seller take that into consideration. Now, it's only been recently (a year or so) that the actual "grading" of stamps has become a big deal; prior to that point, the reason to get a stamp certified wout be for authenticity and/or finding faults/flaws.

Now that high-end graded stamps have become all the rage, there may be more doctoring occurring with the intent of "slipping one past" the TPGS.

Of course with stamp collecting it's a bit more cut and dried as no one pays a premium for toned or stained stamps; that's seen as a flaw. If anything whitening/bleaching is more of a problem...

Ricke · August 29, 2006 2:03AM

I don't think taking on a witch hunt mentality is probably the best route on this. That sort of thing can be more damaging than the problem itself.

As some people have already pointed out, this problem isn't exactly breaking news. It's unfortunate that a known member of the forum was guilty - but dang... everyone going on a rampage like they can't believe someone got caught - why is that the breaking point?

Most people knew this was going on in the market for a long time, but you never saw a 5 billion post thread about outrage over it.

drjules · August 29, 2006 2:40AM

<< It's good to live in the DARK!!! >>

theboz11 · August 29, 2006 3:10AM

Ok, am I in trouble or what? Some silver medals in my curio cabinet are beginning to show a yellow hue, does this make me guilty of having AT medals , or since the process has taken a couple years, is it NT. Now if I put my silver coins in the cabinet and this occurs am I some kind of parriah. And should I remove my medals and dip them.

1jester · August 29, 2006 5:32AM

<< 

<< An AT doctor was busted. Though it's a very long thread, I recommend reading the entire thing, along with all the links. It's completely germane to our field as prices rise across the board and TPGs are increasingly the norm on the Darkside, and there have already been highly suspect slabbed Darkside coins available on the market.

>>

Can you tell us more about "highly suspect slabbed Darkside coins available on the market"? Do you have any examples of these? The few AT coins that I have seen on the darkside were raw and IMHO was done to hide problems with the coins.3Mark >>

Mark, it's very difficult to tell if a coin is AT, especially from a picture, and often we'll never know. However, in this thread, I brought into question some of MrD's coins. Obviously, he specializes in toned coins, so that would by nature increase his risk factor in happening upon AT coins. As he explains, if a TPG certifies it, it's good enough.

I guess we have to be careful, and avoid spending vast sums of money just to get a colorful coin, unless of course that's what a collector wants to do.

Aethelred · August 29, 2006 7:59AM

<< I don't think it has the same stigma that "doctoring" has in coin collecting. In fact, there are professional services that offer restoration options on stamps. They're expensive as hell, but are seen as legitimate. >>

This is not the case, ever hear of NCS? What makes their services ethical and a collector doing the same thing at his dining room table unethical? Is it o.k. because NCS is an arm of NGC? I think we have a double standard here.

AuldFartte · August 29, 2006 8:45AM

Sheesh. I can't believe I spent about two hours reading both of those threads.

I will not post my thoughts on either of the liteside threads (some of those folks eat people

). I find it interesting that, when I purchased a wildly toned liteside piece last April and posted it "over there" to ask if they thought it was artificially toned, I got a few resounding "yes" votes - BUT the amazing thing was that a coin "doctor" on these boards took credit for "making" the coin I now own ...

and nobody said a blasted thing to him or about him. The liteside has one heckuva double standard going on.

Lynch · August 29, 2006 2:55PM

<< The coin doctors are already invading the Darkside..... >>

If people are willing to pay large premiums for white or toned coins, someone out there will give them what they want. Anyone who pays large premiums for such coins encourages the coin doctors by making it profitable for them to do what they do. In the end, that market is really all about money and not about collecting.

When I see posts with titles like "Just a got a bunch of new grades in", that tells me something about the market for such things. Grading is all about monetary values. It has zero to do with numismatics.

cacheman · August 29, 2006 3:04PM

"It has zero to do with numismatics."

Yea verily....

SYRACUSIAN · August 29, 2006 6:13PM

He's not the first, nor the last coin doctor who got caught. The only reason for which MOC will go down in history,is because he was the first "respected board member" that was caught to do such a thing and confess afterwards, in these internet times that we live. Just like wybrit, I was more upset by the second thread, the confession, rather than the first one. I was in particular disgusted by the so-called zero tolerance members who replied and who did not accept the brave apology and confession. One of them, had made his first appearance and post here ,about a year ago, trying to sell a rare Greek 1844 5 drs, but so damaged that it wasn't worth much more than melt. That's not what he was asking though, he was calling it a (problem free) VF-XF....

If anybody has a reason to be really concerned about this, it's only the few members who purchased expensive high end Washington quarters from MOC, although it looks as if these were not messed up with and he appears willing to make it right with them too if they wish. That particular Morgan was smelling AT miles away, wether in a PCGS holder or not. I'm a toned coins fan and this will not affect my future purchases. The hobby will not be as damaged as some people say it will from this story. Maybe the huge premiums for encapsulated US toned coins will suffer, but then again I think it was time for such a wake up call to those who who put all their trust in slabs. This, the PCGS boards, is only a very small part of the numismatic community, most people won't ever hear this story and even if they do, it will be one of the many that they already know. As for MOC, I think that he should rethink his decision to quit. He can start over again, with a very low profile and no selling. The difficulty that he'll encounter in trying to sell his Registry set is punishment enough.

But my god, what kind of society is this that won't give second chances to people?

Aethelred · August 29, 2006 9:21PM

<< But my god, what kind of society is this that won't give second chances to people? >>

I agree! I have done business with MOC before (he bought some toned Washington Quarters from me), I found him very pleasant and I would not hesitate to either sell to or buy from him again. He is a very nice guy and if there is anyone who deserves a second chance it is him!

Preussen · August 30, 2006 12:48AM

<< But my god, what kind of society is this that won't give second chances to people? >>

Dimitri, I must disagree. I see no obligation whatsoever on the part of the (coin collecting) society to give a “second chance” to a dishonest person who doctored (how many?) coins, lied about it, then gave a half-hearted apology (of sorts) only after being decisively “outed.”

I don’t know the guy and have never dealt with him. Considering my collecting interests (and the fact that his "art work" isn't my cup of tea) I probably never would have crossed paths with him, but I’ll certainly avoid him now and forever. Additionally, I believe that he’s getting out of the AT business about as much as I believe his “apology.”

I have zero tolerance for crooks. No second chances here, but that’s just me & I won’t apologize for it (not that you asked

).

Just my 2¢ - Preussen

Ricke · August 30, 2006 12:48AM

Quite frankly, I am mostly sick of the drama. I understand the problem, and I feel for anyone who may now own a coin they will never look at the same - we've all been there, and that sucks... but I'm a little let down by the board members that were drawing similarities between this issue and *serious* crimes and 'tragities'.

One poster made a claim that said his apology was like a statement from a man sentenced to death... Really?

I can understand people being upset, but I don't think toning coins is on par with murder, not even on a metaphorical level.

Ridiculous.

Lynch · August 30, 2006 2:48AM

<< Quite frankly, I am mostly sick of the drama. I understand the problem, and I feel for anyone who may now own a coin they will never look at the same - we've all been there, and that sucks... but I'm a little let down by the board members that were drawing similarities between this issue and *serious* crimes and 'tragities'.

One poster made a claim that said his apology was like a statement from a man sentenced to death... Really?

I can understand people being upset, but I don't think toning coins is on par with murder, not even on a metaphorical level.

Ridiculous. >>

I agree. What was done was dishonorable, but some of the posts strongly suggest that some people have lost all sense of perspective.

I don't know MOC & have never done business with him. I don't collect US coins, so it is unlikely that our paths would ever cross.

I can understand people being angry, but MOC is just the guy who got caught. People have been diddling coins for years in an effort to "improve" them, and as long as people are prepared to pay lunatic prices for "toners", they will continue to reward people who are willing to give them what they want.

Aethelred's point about high grade early US copper is correct. Nearly all of it has been diddled at one time or another, which is something to keep in mind if you are considering paying huge premiums for "original" copper.

mojoman · August 30, 2006 2:49AM

Hi,No I agree with you 100% but my point was he said it was only 1 coin , now they have 3 that he bought ,the coins "toned" and HE resold them ,I was just wondering about the many others he has sold? I am sure there will be more popping up?
I always wonder about buying toned coins, some I have in my dansco albums are toning nicley , but it is a form of AT because everyone knows the earlier ones had sulfer in them so if you put a coin in the book knowing it will tone ,do you say album toned? when you know it is a form of AT ?. mOjO

wybrit · August 30, 2006 4:40AM

Just like wybrit, I was more upset by the second thread, the confession, rather than the first one. I was in particular disgusted by the so-called zero tolerance members who replied and who did not accept the brave apology and confession.

The "pile on" guys annoyed me, for certain. What was almost as bad was the sanctimonious, "holier than thou" crowd whose posts tried to show how much better they were (not to be confused with genuine disagreement about the excesses of crowd #1).

Simply put, the seller was caught, he lied, his lies were flimsy and easy to see through by anyone with even a high school education in chemistry, he relented and apologized. Can we forgive? Of course. Can we forget? Definitely not. Does this event mean that all AT activities will cease? No way.

Doogy · August 30, 2006 7:39AM

one of the reasons I like world gold, you don't have to deal with the whole toning thing; you just have to watch out for cleaned coins, but the TPGs usually do a good job at detecting those.

Doug

mrearlygold · August 30, 2006 11:44AM

<< 

<< I think I am just going to either wait for the mini-series or the Readers Digest condensed version...

>>

Reader's Digest version:

A 1904-O Dollar was sold on eBay in one of the old PCGS slabs, the coin in the photo was fully white. A short time later the same coin in th esame PCGS slab was sold on eBay again and this time it was rainbow toned!

I have know that this was going on for a long time but until today have not seen the smoking gun.

LINK TO AUCTION #1

LINK TO AUCTION #2 >>

bidask · September 2, 2006 11:03AM

<< He's not the first, nor the last coin doctor who got caught. The only reason for which MOC will go down in history,is because he was the first "respected board member" that was caught to do such a thing and confess afterwards, in these internet times that we live. Just like wybrit, I was more upset by the second thread, the confession, rather than the first one. I was in particular disgusted by the so-called zero tolerance members who replied and who did not accept the brave apology and confession. One of them, had made his first appearance and post here ,about a year ago, trying to sell a rare Greek 1844 5 drs, but so damaged that it wasn't worth much more than melt. That's not what he was asking though, he was calling it a (problem free) VF-XF....

If anybody has a reason to be really concerned about this, it's only the few members who purchased expensive high end Washington quarters from MOC, although it looks as if these were not messed up with and he appears willing to make it right with them too if they wish. That particular Morgan was smelling AT miles away, wether in a PCGS holder or not. I'm a toned coins fan and this will not affect my future purchases. The hobby will not be as damaged as some people say it will from this story. Maybe the huge premiums for encapsulated US toned coins will suffer, but then again I think it was time for such a wake up call to those who who put all their trust in slabs. This, the PCGS boards, is only a very small part of the numismatic community, most people won't ever hear this story and even if they do, it will be one of the many that they already know. As for MOC, I think that he should rethink his decision to quit. He can start over again, with a very low profile and no selling. The difficulty that he'll encounter in trying to sell his Registry set is punishment enough.

But my god, what kind of society is this that won't give second chances to people? >>

He tried to present to the coin collecting public something that wasn't. I believe in forgiving people and fully agree that he should collect and not sell. This hobby is unregulated. All we have ( as honest collectors and honest dealers) is really to police each other to help keep this hobby at high standards. If it means shunning, avoiding, and discrediting someone for the actions they wrougth, then so be it. Punishment enough will be his reputation. And that is sad whenever something like this happens.

WillieBoyd2 · September 2, 2006 11:22AM

Re: Second Chances

Banks don't usually re-hire embezzlers.

Coindexter · September 3, 2006 9:49PM

I can't believe I'm reading an AT/NT thread on the darkside.

Seriously though, antics like this are why I will never pay a premium for color and threads like that are why my sigline exists. It's sad that it turned out that MOC actually put the sham on, but in the first ten posts of the thread people were already looking for a rope. The pile on mentality and antagonism over there gets to me some times - but hey, I guess I'm preaching to the choir.

Lightside thread on ATing is a must-read.

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