Man...the dichtomy between "fresh, natural" and "doctored and dipped" is getting
saintguru
Posts: 7,727 ✭✭✭
NOW...all we hear is how tight FRESH stuff is and how "worked" stuff is all that can be found.
Could this create parallel yet different markets? I think so....it already has.
The wave of new, serious buyers in the last 5 years has really cleaned up many of the really nice original coins. They have gotten to the point where they are now "notable"! This is very different than before. It seems that the percentage of original vs. messed-with coins has gone up dramatically, and now we are going to see the repercussions of the aggressive dealers who are destroying beautiful old coins to make them shinier, cleaner and worth a lot less that they were before, all in the name of marketing or in feeble attempts to get upgrades. A few actuslly do upgrade, but when you hold one of these you can only shake your head and wonder who had the balls to tamper with a coin and destroy what it once was.
I am disgusted at this now common practice of dealers who are ruining what few pieces of monetary history we have. These coins are tainted and will never be considered in the same light as before. It's a crime. I have even heard of "metal-movers" who fill gashes, etc. with ultra-fine shavings. Better hold onto the good stuff. It's going to pay off in the next few years.
Could this create parallel yet different markets? I think so....it already has.
The wave of new, serious buyers in the last 5 years has really cleaned up many of the really nice original coins. They have gotten to the point where they are now "notable"! This is very different than before. It seems that the percentage of original vs. messed-with coins has gone up dramatically, and now we are going to see the repercussions of the aggressive dealers who are destroying beautiful old coins to make them shinier, cleaner and worth a lot less that they were before, all in the name of marketing or in feeble attempts to get upgrades. A few actuslly do upgrade, but when you hold one of these you can only shake your head and wonder who had the balls to tamper with a coin and destroy what it once was.
I am disgusted at this now common practice of dealers who are ruining what few pieces of monetary history we have. These coins are tainted and will never be considered in the same light as before. It's a crime. I have even heard of "metal-movers" who fill gashes, etc. with ultra-fine shavings. Better hold onto the good stuff. It's going to pay off in the next few years.
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Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i> Better hold onto the good stuff. It's going to pay off in the next few years. >>
You sure got that right Mr. Guru
<< <i>Bifurcation >>
no one understood your bifurcated, convoluted thread, Mr. Bigwords.
Now we have a major grading service with full page ads for their coin doctoring services. Apparently, when they do it, it's considered "market acceptible."
....Better hold onto the good stuff. It's going to pay off in the next few years.
Pretty much my thoughts last month in Baltimore as I walked the aisles, becoming increasingly disappointed in the quality of coins out there and what had been done to many of them....
Will be interesting to see where the market goes in the next couple of years.
Chicolini: Mint? No, no, I no like a mint. Uh - what other flavor you got?
Coincidentally (I think not), here is a link to a thread I started in 2003:Some thoughts/predictions on what type/look of coins will be in greater/lesser demand a few years from now.... Perhaps the future is closer than I'd thought.
I don't think we've seen anything yet with respect to how large the dichtomy might become. Coins continue to be permanently ruined - whoops, I mean "conserved" - in large quantities, day after day.
And, as an example, while unknowledgeable buyers might prefer lifeless, white, completely unoriginal looking type coins from the 19th or even 18th century right now, that WILL change ove time.
Below are other previous comments I have posted on this topic.
From April of last year:
"While many are apparently enamored with the concept and profit potential of "conservation", many others frown upon it, privately, if not publicly.
I predict that eventually "conservation" and the accompanying grading and "slabbing" of instantly recognizable/unoriginal looking coins will be a black eye for any grading company that engages in it."
From August of last year:
"I also predict that years from now, the small number of original pieces that remain such, will command nice premiums over the silly looking, conserved widgets"
Three plus years ago when I first met "Dahlonega", he was selling complete AU sets of Dahlonega quarter eagles and half eagles. The coins were 100% original and all nice for the grade. In retrospect, the offering price was cheap, but it seemed expensive at the time. Fortunately, when he finally broke up the sets, he sold the coins to individuals that he knew would respect the heritage and originality of the coins. I was fortunate to be able to acquire four coins from these sets.
Judging by the material found in auctions and on the bourse, I am not sure that one could put together date sets like these ever again.
Coinbanguy1..you were on this and right on. I never believed in this conservation crap. You conserve a forest...you leave a coin alone and let it age with grace.
<< <i>You conserve a forest... >>
Interesting analogy Jay. A "conserved" forest is one that's been logged (usually clear-cut) and replanted. It just looks and feels wrong, and it's never the same again. Much like the "conserved" coins?
There was a 1922-S MS65 Saint in an auction a few years ago. About a 40K coin. It has a number of quite pretu copper spots, and this date is KNOWN for copper. The buyer, a major coin chemist, had it dipped, and it took him 6 months to sell a coin that he could have turned in a day. I remember when he showed it to me shortly after he bought it, and I took one look and said "why did you have this laundered?"
He stared at me, I stared back and said "That's too bad...it was a nice coin."
If you don't call them out on it, how will they ever get the message? I would have bought the coin if he hadn't destroyed it. I said destroyed...in my mind he did.
Ace...you're playing word-games with me.
I agree with just about everything you said... please consider endorsing an original surfaces designation for TPG. The time is long overdue. I have offered up this suggestion here for nearly three years now.
The sad reality is that it is great to read the thoughts here but there needs to be an action plan to change grading. At least an original surfaces designation is a move in the right direction.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Ace...you're playing word-games with me. >>
Sorry Jay. I thought I was agreeing with you that conserved=bad.
<< <i>I was agreeing with you that conserved=bad.
So removing PVC from a coin is a bad idea?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>So removing PVC from a coin is a bad idea? >>
I understood saintguru to be saying that, in general, messing with coins is bad, and I agree with that as a general premise. Can we come up with circumstances (i.e., pvc removal) where a majority of collectors would say it's ok? Of course. The dilemma lies in drawing the lines - where do we cross over to the point that it's ok color proof IHCs with MS70? It's not a difficult line to cross (witness the number of forum members who were unwilling to condemn the IHC colorizers), so I do think that a general rule of "conserve=bad" is a good one. But yes, we can always come up with exceptions that will prove the rule probably ought not be absolute.
<< <i>Saint:
I agree with just about everything you said... please consider endorsing an original surfaces designation for TPG. The time is long overdue. I have offered up this suggestion here for nearly three years now.
The sad reality is that it is great to read the thoughts here but there needs to be an action plan to change grading. At least an original surfaces designation is a move in the right direction. >>
Never happen. That only adds more liability to the Grade-Guarantee. The difference is going to fall on the eyes of the collector. That;s OK.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ace...you're playing word-games with me. >>
Sorry Jay. I thought I was agreeing with you that conserved=bad.
Conserved COINS are very bad. I was vague. Now we agree.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>coinguy seems to have predicted almost every thing that has happened in the coin world in the last 2 years. How come you never replied when you got called out on your claim of editing that book by david hall? >>
You're playing Russian Roulette with coinbannedguy. You are inflating his already oversized cranium AND deflating his ability to 'claim'.
That has a potentially horrific ending...he could implode into a BLACK HOLE!
<< <i>coinguy seems to have predicted almost every thing that has happened in the coin world in the last 2 years. How come you never replied when you got called out on your claim of editing that book by david hall? >>
I didn't reply because 1) it didn't matter to me that I didn't receive credit within the book for having helped edit it; 2) there was nothing to say other than that, whether I received official credit or not, I helped edit it; and, most importantly to me 3) because the poster who commented knows me well enough to know I was telling the truth.
"I, along with another person who also worked for David Hall at the time, helped edit that book for him. Please note, I didn't try, but presumed that I wasn't allowed to edit the coin selections ."
Trime says:
Mark, funny, I looked through the acknowledgements and dedication and I didn't see your name mentioned . I guess you are absolved from any post hoc reviews.
I did note that the book was published by American Bureau of Economic Research Ft Forth ,Tx.
LOOKS LIKE HE WANTED TO MAKE A POINT
<< <i>
<< <i>coinguy seems to have predicted almost every thing that has happened in the coin world in the last 2 years. How come you never replied when you got called out on your claim of editing that book by david hall? >>
I didn't reply because 1) it didn't matter to me that I didn't receive credit within the book for having helped edit it; 2) there was nothing to say other than that, whether I received official credit or not, I helped edit it; and, most importantly to me 3) because the poster who commented knows me well enough to know I was telling the truth. >>
and are you feeling any tremendous pressure or seeing charged ions around you yet?
<< <i>Mark said:
"I, along with another person who also worked for David Hall at the time, helped edit that book for him. Please note, I didn't try, but presumed that I wasn't allowed to edit the coin selections ."
Trime says:
Mark, funny, I looked through the acknowledgements and dedication and I didn't see your name mentioned . I guess you are absolved from any post hoc reviews.
I did note that the book was published by American Bureau of Economic Research Ft Forth ,Tx.
LOOKS LIKE HE WANTED TO MAKE A POINT >>
Please feel free to discuss it with him. I don't know what else to tell you on the subject.
Jay, behave yourself, just for a few minutes, ok?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Beauty is in The Eye of the Holder---Hugh Hefner >>
He has some doctored and some original in his.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>....."I also predict that years from now, the small number of original pieces that remain such, will command nice premiums over the silly looking, conserved widgets" >>
Mark, You're right then and you're right now. Mark
<< <i>I am disgusted at this now common practice of dealers who are ruining what few pieces of monetary history we have. >>
Unfortunately it's not only a common practice now but has been for years.
I know several $50K+ coins that got rescued out of the ANA Auctions
One of the coin doctors even complained to the winning bidder about being outbid
I think some collectors have finally gotten it and are willing to throw away the sheets to buy these coins at levels that will keep them original.
I think some collectors have finally gotten it and are willing to throw away the sheets to buy these coins at levels that will keep them original.
I still maintain that the TPG can and should help with this. If NGC can do a Star designation, then an original surfaces designation is not only possible but warranted.
The time for arm chair talk is over and change is required.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
given that NCS is still in it's infancy(and don't fool yourself and think that PCGS doesn't have the same capability and doesn't occasionally use it) i think it's only fair that the hobby allows them to go through a learning period where they can hopefully become more prudent with their choice of workable coins and solvable problems.
as a collector who occasionally uses NCS and occasionally "dips" coins, i can speak from experience and say that it's the choosing aspect which is most difficult. conservation isn't a cure-all. to use the forest analogy, conservation means wise use while preservation means no use at all. perhaps in the future perfect world wisdom will meld the two.
BTW, Jay, i always consider that it's best for collectors to keep searching for the coins they like instead of liking coins they think they can fix or have fixed.
<< <i>I still maintain that the TPG can and should help with this. >>
I agree...we NEED help from the services...since they are partly responsible for the problem.
The dichotomoy between dipped and orig was HUGE (ie LOUD) back in the 1980's. Coins with dipped surfaces were at times downgraded. It's only natural that the pendulum swing back a bit to originality.
roadrunner
Until the last original coin is dipped, the numismatic community and especially those that benefit from the practice may not realize what they have done.
whatever happened to that posse, anyway?