A Prediction....
Skinpinch
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in Sports Talk
If the Yankees win their division, Derek Jeter will be named AL MVP.
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Although, if the Yankees win the division and the Red Sox still make the playoffs via wildcard then the nod has to go to Ortiz IMO.
-- Yogi Berra
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Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
get that jeter junk out of here.
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They lost matsui and sheffield, and they are still scoring runs. Losing Jeter wouldn't have affected that.
Now, take Ortiz out of Boston's lineup, and see where they are at...
You jeter jock sniffers are something else!
Of course he hasn't had as much homers or Ribbies as Ortiz; but their roles in the offense are completely different.
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<< <i>Jete's got the second best batting average in the league, 2nd in the AL in OB%, and is top ten in steals in the AL. So yes, he was a catalyst in scoring runs(74) and driving runs in(67).
Of course he hasn't had as much homers or Ribbies as Ortiz; but their roles in the offense are completely different. >>
Runs scored and RBI are a byproduct of your team's effectiveness either at getting on base or driving you in...it has little to do with your talent. But if you want to go there, Ortiz has more runs scored (80) and RBI (by a mile - 105).
Joe Mauer has a better BA and OBP, and stolen bases? Wow you're digging deep.
Jeter's not going to win the MVP, no matter how much you yankeeites want it to happen. Ortiz has the award in his pocket already (though I could see Manny finishing second - he's having a monster year, too).
Jeter may finish in the top 5, but I wouldn't count on it.
<< <i>If the Yankees win their division, Derek Jeter will be named AL MVP. >>
What?
I used to think you had a clue skinpinch - unless this whole thread was sarcastic in nature, you have lost your mind.
<< <i>You really, honestly believe that missing a bat out of their lineup would have done anything to their record?
They lost matsui and sheffield, and they are still scoring runs. Losing Jeter wouldn't have affected that.
Now, take Ortiz out of Boston's lineup, and see where they are at...
You jeter jock sniffers are something else! >>
Ok Ax. Here is the flaw in everything you just said.
In your statement you say take Ortiz out of Bostons lineup and where would they be ?
YET, when many of us said the same thing about the Sox last year you argued the EXACT opposite to defend your boy Arod. You said Arods bat was MVP worthy.
So how come Ortiz, the DH, who you claimed should not be MVP because of being a DH when he was up against Arod, is now your favorite when he is up against someone other than Arod ?
In your few short sentences you just proved once and for all what a complete and total hypocrite you are. You use a point to make your argument, then you flip flop and do a 180 when it suits you.
Nothing else to say, you said it all, thank you for making our point for us.
-- Yogi Berra
Comparing Ortiz and Jeter - it's not even close, Ortiz crushes him, and therefore deserves the MVP.
As far as taking Arod out of last year's lineup? That yankees team rode his shoulders to the playoffs - without him, they wouldn't have made it. Taking out a guy like Jeter, who isn't driving in runs or hitting homers isn't making that big a difference.
Thank you drive through.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Nope, doesnt float. You cant make a point one year and flip flop and say the opposite next. Doesnt work, not even a good try. Next please. >>
Look, last year, Arod's numbers were so overwhelming that if he hadn't played, the yankees would have sunk. Try as you might, you can't deny it. Jeter's having a very good year, but it pales in comparison to what Ortiz is doing. Last year, ortiz and arod were very, very close, and Arod won because of his overall importance to the club.
This year, Ortiz means more to the team than Jeter - sorry, but its true. And Ortiz will win the MVP while jeter and company will cry like schoolgirls (as will their 'fans').
In Dungeons and Dragons do they have room for a Twit-Master?
<< <i>
<< <i>Nope, doesnt float. You cant make a point one year and flip flop and say the opposite next. Doesnt work, not even a good try. Next please. >>
Look, last year, Arod's numbers were so overwhelming that if he hadn't played, the yankees would have sunk. Try as you might, you can't deny it. Jeter's having a very good year, but it pales in comparison to what Ortiz is doing. Last year, ortiz and arod were very, very close, and Arod won because of his overall importance to the club.
This year, Ortiz means more to the team than Jeter - sorry, but its true. And Ortiz will win the MVP while jeter and company will cry like schoolgirls (as will their 'fans'). >>
My point was not whether or not Ortiz deserves MVP Ax. If you read my original post you will see that. My POINT was that you said Ortiz DOES NOT deserve MVP because he is not a position player. You have said it dozens of times in various posts when you defended Arod. Your point in giving the award to Arod was that his defense was what put him over the edge.
If the Yankees win the division, and Boston fails to make the playoffs then Jeter is more deserving than Ortiz, period. Jeter is 2nd in the majors with a .355 average. He is stealing bases, scoring runs, and playing a great shortstop. Without him this year during all the injuries the Yankees would not be where they are.
In the end, some will want Ortiz, some will want Jeter, and both sides have legitimate arguments. The point I am trying to make is your uncanny method of twisting, shaking, and flip flopping your words when it suits you. This isnt going to turn into a 7 page debate, you did a 180, changed your tune over what an MVP is, and twisted your own words now that it isnt in defense of Arod. Case closed, thats all I am saying.
-- Yogi Berra
Uhh dont be suprised.
<< <i>Nope, doesnt float. You cant make a point one year and flip flop and say the opposite next. Doesnt work, not even a good try. Next please. >>
Flip-Flop
Tinkerbell said: Thursday September 29, 2005 7:56 PM
<< <i>You all know I despise the yankees, so this has nothing to do with yankee bias.
But I just don't see how you award the MVP to someone who only plays half the game. >>
BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
If Tinkerbell's favorite boo-foo buddy was having a decent year, he would be using the same argument. But since another Yankee is involved, he pulls a Kerry.
I was against the guarantee before I was for it.
But since Ortiz' importance to the red sox, as well as his overwhelming superiority to jeter is such that ortiz deserves it much more than jeter (even though he doesn't play in the field).
Hey SD, what does 2100 hits in comparison to the mariners have to do with anything? Could you be any more dim-witted? I am thinking NO.
Just like you were against guaranteed money before you were for guaranteed money?
Okay, all makes perfect sense based upon your flip-flopping logic
do you have any reason for living, other than to come here and harass me? If I stopped posting, would you kill yourself?
<< <i>stown-
do you have any reason for living, other than to come here and harass me? If I stopped posting, would you kill yourself? >>
Not only do you want me banned but now want me dead?
You sure have some demented thoughts, Tinkerbell. You really should go see someone about that...
The thread isn't sarcastic, but I didn't profess him as being of true merit either. I simply predicted that based on how things are going to shake out, and how writers sometimes vote, that Jeter will win the MVP. He will win it the Barry Larkin way.
Merit. He is in the team photo for sure. He has more merit than Ichiro did when he won his.
I'm not fully prepared to do a full merit study if he truly deserves it or not, but he is close enough that it wouldn't be a bad choice. A couple of things...
1) .429 OB%, second to Mauer(whom I touted as a MVP candidate earlier, though his numbers fell a bit, but he is still in the race being a stud catcher).
2). OPS has him 11th at .925
Now the more comprehensive numbers vs. some competitors...
1) Batting Runs above average player has him at 30. This figure does not weight the extra performace with men on numbers.
2) David Ortiz is sitting at 37 runs above average player.
3) .384 BA, .492 OB%, .525 SLG%. Those are his numbers wtih Runners in Scoring position. So he has a high percentage of his hits in the high leverage men on base situations. So this will move up his runs above average player a few runs.
4) David Ortiz's men on numbers are actually a tad lower than his nobody on numbers, therefore, his batting Runs are reflecting an accurate count.
JETER 33
ORTIZ 37
STOLEN BASE RUNS!! This must not be forgotten here. Jeter has 23 SB and only 2 CS. SUPERB! IN terms of how many runs that typically means? That equates to approximately 5 more runs to Jeter's total. Ortiz has 2 SB and 0 CS. About a half a run. Heck, we will give the big guy a full run.
JETER 38
ORTIZ 38
Base running in general. I don't have any figures, and none of these figures take into account going from first to third, or second to home, but anybody would be a fool to not recognizing Jeter having an advantage here. It would be a small factor in accounting for runs though.
Being that they are basically equal as offensive players, and that Jeter is manning the toughest position in baseball, I would say he does merit it over Ortiz. Even if Jeter is a below avg defensive shortstop, that still carries more value than a DH does.
Manny 39 BR. Worse with men on. Lose a run or two here.
Hafner 38 BR. Big uptick with men on. Add appx 5 runs. No SB runs.
Thome 31 BR Nobody else below is close enough to look at the men on numbers.
DYE.....31 BR
Wells...28 BR
Giambi..26 BR
Mauer 24 BR
Morneau 22BR
Mauer 24
So what are we looking at offensively?
Hafner appx 43 BR+SB
Jeter appx ...38 BR+SB
Ortiz appxx...38 BR+SB
Defensive value? We are measuring a SS vs. two DH's. That is certainly enough to pull ahead of Ortiz, and enough to erase the 5 run margin Hafner has over Jeter. Any other aspect that is unknown should be wiped out by Jeter's baserunning ability(not the SB variety).
I reconsider my initial response at the top of this post as I worked through it a bit. There is very strong cause for Jeter to MERIT being the MVP.
Such a twit he has to argue that a guy with a .354 BA is not having an excellent year. If everybody ignored this twit he would have to resort to spending 100% of his time on the Dungeons and Dragons boards. Don't you guys realize this? Do yourselves a favor.
How anyone continues to bash this guy is beyond me again. Jeter is one of three guys that I would want batting if my team needed a hit. He is just as consistent in the post season.
I still don't think the Yankees have the pitching to win the AL East, and I still lean towards them not making a wild card, but Jeter deserves much respect.
<< <i>Such a twit he has to argue that a guy with a .354 BA is not having an excellent year. >>
Please, please tell me where I said he wasn't having an excellent year. I won't hold my breath, as you won't be able to find it.
I simply said he won't be in the top 5 in MVP.
<< <i>If everybody ignored this twit he would have to resort to spending 100% of his time on the Dungeons and Dragons boards. Don't you guys realize this? Do yourselves a favor. >>
You say this, yet you try to call me out by implying I said he wasn't having an excellent year.
Do you even watch baseball now that Henderson's not playing anymore?
<< <i>Jeter may finish in the top 5, but I wouldn't count on it. >>
No you didn't.
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murcer you really suck at this posting thing.
<< <i>Wouldn't suprise me Jeter wins, just another case of a new york player getting something he doesn't deserve. 1941, 1946, 2005 mvps. The same bias that caused pedro not to win the mvp. >>
Must be the same bias that gave Ichiro the ROY yet couldnt find a reason to give it to Matsui.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>
Must be the same bias that gave Ichiro the ROY yet couldnt find a reason to give it to Matsui. >>
Ichiro deserved it...sorry NY!
<< <i>
<< <i>
Must be the same bias that gave Ichiro the ROY yet couldnt find a reason to give it to Matsui. >>
Ichiro deserved it...sorry NY! >>
Nobody questioned whether or not Ichiro deserved it. Of coures he did, but so did Matsui.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>The Yankees remind me of a talented race horse that is competitive but never seems to win a race. If history holds, it will be the same thing for the Yankees this season as in many previous seasons. The Yankees will get close, but then not do what is necessary to be a champion. >>
lol, the NY Yankees have won nearly 1/4 of all World Series ever played....I think that they a little beyond "competitive" and I'm pretty damn sure they know how to get it done when the time is right.
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<< <i>Maybe Matsui didn't get it because he throws like a little girl or the fact that he was one of the league leaders in double plays or the fact that he is just so darn ugly. I am glad he is hurt, I hope he is never the same player and goes back to japan in shame and ends it like a disgraced samurai warrior. >>
You can always be counted on for having class.
-- Yogi Berra
If you're all about doing favors for everyone you can do us all a big one and just vanish.
-- Yogi Berra
But I find it extremely odd that you are saying Jeter doesn't deserve it, while at the same time saying that Ichiro did???? Looking at it in laymen terms, here is how the two stack up in the MVP years.
AVG
JETER .354, Ichiro .350
OB%
JETER .429. Ichiro .389
SLG%
JETER .494, Ichiro .457
Stolen Base Runs
JETER 6, Ichiro 8.4.
Jeter has more season left of course, but you are arguing his numbers right now. Even if Jeter hits the skids he will still better Ichiro's numbers. He will add more SB runs as the season goes on too.
There is no possible way a sane man can say that Ichiro deserved his, and that Jeter does not this year.
Ichiro had 31 Batter RUns above average in 2001, Giambi 84. Giambi crushed him. Notice how the sluggers are even with Jeter this year, and that the sluggers crushed Ichiro in 2001. Thome, Arod, and Ramirez all crushed Ichiro that year too. They crushed him in OPS+ as well.
So, knowing that Jeter is at the very top offensively this season, and that he is a SS, and his two closest competitors are DH's, AND compare that to Ichiro when he was crushed offensively, and not near the top ala Jeter, I wonder.....How on earth can you say that Ichiro deserved his and Jeter does not now??? This continued stance will ruin any once of credibility you have ever earned.
it's obvious I am a mariners fan, and its obvious Ichiro is a unique player. So of course he comes in and makes a huge splash, he's going to garner a lot of attention - and, based on my obvious home team bias, I am going to say Ichiro is worthy.
As far as Jeter, you can spin the numbers any way you like, but when you look at the numbers, and the importance to the team, Ortiz >>>>>> Jeter.
There is no spinning of numbers at all. They are the value of his hits and running, plain and simple. His offensive production is on par with Ortiz, and Jeter plays Shortstop, Ortiz DH. Any measurement will tell the same things. Jeter is the better player this year.
The thing that is most valuable to a team is how many runs a player is responsible for offensively, and how many they are responsible for preventing defensively....the better player! The players that have the most worth in runs is what is most valuable to a team. Tying a players value to a team based on the worth or handicap of his teammates is very faulty and is basically meaningless. That is the "If he wasn't here, then they would still be in first. Or, if he wasn't here then they would be worse off." Those are indictments or praise for the teammates, and have nothing to do with the player. THe thing that matters is runs produced and prevented.
If you indeed insist on the archaic beliefs laid out above(of tying a players worth to the level of competence/incompetence of teammates), then think of this...David Ortiz's teammate batters have higher OPS than Jeter's teammate batters.
If one is to talk about attitude intangibles? THey have nowhere near the merit most claim towards runs and winning, but I don't see, by any stretch of the imagination, how Ortiz would have Jeter beat in this category.
I don't spin, and I don't deal in bias. I deal in reality and truth of what has occured.
The reality is what follows...Jeter has super strong merit for the MVP this year, and Jeter has more merit for the MVP than Ichiro did when he won his. Only a biased or ignorant person can disagree with these realities. Feel free to circle the one that applies.
<< <i>I hope Jeter blows his knee out or pulls a munson. >>
great, thats just great. jad get lost you idiot. Its obvious you think its "cool" to post like you do. Most likely you are a 13 year old punk who gets his a$$ whupped in school.
Little newsflash for ya little dic$head, you suck, your posting sucks, and you are'nt cool .
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<< <i>
The reality is what follows...Jeter has super strong merit for the MVP this year, and Jeter has more merit for the MVP than Ichiro did when he won his. Only a biased or ignorant person can disagree with these realities. Feel free to circle the one that applies. >>
I think I already mentioned my biased nature for the Mariners, didn't I?