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Why would a pattern have die cracks?

tmot99tmot99 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭
Ok pattern experts. Here is a picture of a pattern with all kinds of die cracks.

image

I guess I'm just wondering why there would be such die failure. How many coins could have possibly been struck by this die? Certainly each Judd will have differenet numbers, but still. We are not talking a circulation die here. What's up?

Comments

  • Probably applied too much pressure testing a new metal composition.
  • GoldenEyeNumismaticsGoldenEyeNumismatics Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Probably applied too much pressure testing a new metal composition. >>

    i agree
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,485
    Tom, I found this within the description of one such coin and think it will answer your question:

    "Struck from a shattered reverse die".
  • NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,984 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Isn't that a restrike?
  • LeianaLeiana Posts: 4,349
    That's an interesting piece, thanks for posting it!

    -Amanda
    image

    I'm a YN working on a type set!

    My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!

    Proud member of the CUFYNA
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My guess is that the cracks have more to do with a poorly prepared die than with the composition of the planchets. Remember, the dies weren't expected to see extended use, so hardening them properly may have seemed unnecessary. Of course I'm only guessing.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>My guess is that the cracks have more to do with a poorly prepared die than with the composition of the planchets. Remember, the dies weren't expected to see extended use, so hardening them properly may have seemed unnecessary. Of course I'm only guessing. >>



    A die can even crack during the hardening process, so that the first strike would show the crack(s). On a pattern, it wouldn't matter.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • Conder101Conder101 Posts: 10,536
    The Capt'n has the most likely answer. The hardening process creates incredible stresses in the dies and in the early years many dies did not survive it, cracking or even shattering during the quenching. Even if a die did survive without cracking, it would sometimes have such high internal stress that they would sometimes crack or shatter as soon as they were put into use. Sometimes breaking on the first strike. That's why some varieties are unknown or almost unknown without cracks or breaks. The question is Does this pattern exist from the same dies in an uncracked state, and which is rarer the cracked or uncracked?
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,430 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It should not be a surprise to see die cracks on a pattern. One of the reasons why patterns exist is to check the metal flow created by a design when the coin is struck. It should be surprising that a die could fail early on in an experimental striking.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • SunnywoodSunnywood Posts: 2,683


    << <i>

    << <i>My guess is that the cracks have more to do with a poorly prepared die than with the composition of the planchets. Remember, the dies weren't expected to see extended use, so hardening them properly may have seemed unnecessary. Of course I'm only guessing. >>



    A die can even crack during the hardening process, so that the first strike would show the crack(s). On a pattern, it wouldn't matter.
    TD >>



    image
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    Very good question and informative answers.

    Now let's stop this nonsense and get back to discussions about Mel Gibson and Hanoi Jane. image
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • lathmachlathmach Posts: 4,720
    Probably nothing at all due to striking. Andy seems to have a handle on this.
    Most likely the cracks are from the heat treating process.
    Surface cracks, (and subsurface cracks), are a rather common occurance from heat treating.
    This is most likely the reason for so many die cracked coins in the 1800's.
    Cracks can be difficult to see, and the most common method of checking for them is using zyglo penetrant and looking for them under an ultraviolet light.
    I own a machine shop, by the way.

    Ray

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