Coolest thing I've seen - Washington Medal Experts - a little help here - Washington Stamped on Morg
tmot99
Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭
Here is got to be one of the coolest things I've seen. It is a very highly detailed Washington stamped onto an 1882-O Morgan Dollar. This Washington, according to it's owner, is not listed in the Baker book. Can anyone help identify this? Is this a Judd of some sort? The fields are prooflike and the detail on Washington is crisp. We are wondering if this was a die trial of some sort. Then I ask the question, why didn't they just grab a blank planchet if that's the case? Any help here is appreciated.
UPDATE - I asked George Fuld about this counterstamp and this is his response:
These counterstamps were made about 1962 by Robert Bashlow from dies obtaiend from August G. Frank of Phila. They are more than restrikes--just fantasies.
UPDATE - I asked George Fuld about this counterstamp and this is his response:
These counterstamps were made about 1962 by Robert Bashlow from dies obtaiend from August G. Frank of Phila. They are more than restrikes--just fantasies.
0
Comments
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I've never seen one and have no idea to its origins but that thing is seriously cool!
That was exactly what went through my mind when the dealer pulled it out.
They did an excellent job preserving reverse detail. ...Struck on copper perhaps?
Al
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Jonathan
I KNOW I've seen that bust before. Somewhere. Now where was that...wait. Could it be, maybe, just possibly...
--Severian the Lame
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
I can confirm that it's not totally unique. The following items appeared in the Altman-Haffner Sale by Pine Tree Auction Ccompany, Inc. on April 28, 29, 30, 1975. A jpeg of a photo of a photocopy of a mediocre print doesn't exactly give the best image quality, but that's what I can offer:
858. 1880. Silver dollar countermarked by a cent-size die bearing aa Washington head r. in plain field, seemingly Longacre's work, like the Sanitary Fair medalets but in Higher relief. Coin was AU or thereabouts, counterstamp is pristine. Not in Baker. The only one we have heard of. (Photo)
859. 1897. Silver dollar countermarked obv. by Washington head r., surrounded by 5-pointed stars; rev. by the house in Newburgh N. Y., which served as Washington's headquaarters during 1783, with inscr. CENTENNIAL CELEBRATION OCT. 18, 1883. WASHINGTON'S HEADQUARTERS NEWBURGH, N. Y. The rev. is the die of Baker 456, (by George H. Lovett), the obv. is unlike anything in Baker. Coin probably was AU, counterstamp Unc. and prooflike, from polished dies. First we have seen. (Photo)
Lot 858 sold for $300 in 1975, lot 859 sold for $250. Value might be higher now, but probably not incredibly so; Washington medals have not appreciated as drastically as other areas of numismatics over the past 30 years.
jonathan
Also called Fantasy Piece ,Pocket Piece.When no one was around they would make these conversation pocket piece for themselves.
jonathan, the obv die sure does like the #859 .
1997 Matte Nickel strike thru U
"Error Collector- I Love Dem Crazy Coins"
"Money, what is money? It is loaned to a man; he comes into the world with nothing and he leaves with nothing." Billy Durant. Founder of General Motors. He died a pauper.
I wonder if the 35 stars are simply what fit. There were 38 states in 1882, so if that was the intent of the symbolism, someone didn't do a good job counting to 38.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
There was a big auction of Washington stuff about 5 years ago, but I don't have the catalog (or the reference). The Ford II auction also had a bunch of Washington stuff, but I don't have a copy of that catalog either.
Here is an image of a listed Washington Medal, Baker 315, by Lovett. The bust isn't an exact match for the counterstamp, but it's pretty close
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>I'm trying to learn more about medals, and the saying is "buy the book before the coin". Problem is, there aren't a whole lot of books to buy, so I'm looking at old auction catalogs. I don't have too many, and what I do have is hit-and-miss, but gives me less to remember. You're lucky that I remembered that one, and could locate it again.
There was a big auction of Washington stuff about 5 years ago, but I don't have the catalog (or the reference). The Ford II auction also had a bunch of Washington stuff, but I don't have a copy of that catalog either.
Here is an image of a listed Washington Medal, Baker 315, by Lovett. The bust isn't an exact match for the counterstamp, but it's pretty close
You are probably thinking of a non-Ford sale of Washingtonia that Stack's held back in 2003. I have it down at the store, along with the run of Ford Sales. Will check them Monday.
TD
1882 to 1885 Charles Barber was working on a new pair
of dies for the Revolutionary War Washington medal.
Interesting piece.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I sent him a PM
1997 Matte Nickel strike thru U
"Error Collector- I Love Dem Crazy Coins"
"Money, what is money? It is loaned to a man; he comes into the world with nothing and he leaves with nothing." Billy Durant. Founder of General Motors. He died a pauper.
<< <i>Where is BillJones when you need him? Maybe he can shed some light on this
I sent him a PM >>
Thanks. I didn't know he knew this material. Like there's something he doesn't know about??
<< <i>Here is got to be one of the coolest things I've seen. It is a very highly detailed Washington stamped onto an 1882-O Morgan Dollar. This Washington, according to it's owner, is not listed in the Baker book. Can anyone help identify this? Is this a Judd of some sort? The fields are prooflike and the detail on Washington is crisp. We are wondering if this was a die trial of some sort. Then I ask the question, why didn't they just grab a blank planchet if that's the case? Any help here is appreciated.
TMOT: That die (identifiable by the extra space between the sixth and seventh star from the left end) is the obverse of Lot 1485 in Stack's Jan. 21-23, 2003 sale of the Western Reserve Historical Society and other consigners. The reverse has "WASHINGTON'S/ FEB. 22/ BIRTHDAY" and some scrollwork. The lot description says:
"Undated Washington's Birth Day Medal. B.A154. Bronze (unlisted so). 27mm. Choice BU........ Identified with numismatist Charles Ira Bushnell."
So, the die is from Baker-154. No telling who did the overstamping, or when.
Tom D.
<< <i>That die (identifiable by the extra space between the sixth and seventh star from the left end) is the obverse of Lot 1485 in Stack's Jan. 21-23, 2003 sale of the Western Reserve Historical Society and other consigners. The reverse has "WASHINGTON'S/ FEB. 22/ BIRTHDAY" and some scrollwork. The lot description says:
"Undated Washington's Birth Day Medal. B.A154. Bronze (unlisted so). 27mm. Choice BU........ Identified with numismatist Charles Ira Bushnell."
So, the die is from Baker-154. No telling who did the overstamping, or when.
Tom D. >>
Interesting. Thanks for the info. I'm gonna call Stack's and see if they can provide a picture and or price realized.
Will’sProoflikes
Keets, do you have that one?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
First, the fact that this counterstamp has appeared at least twice on an 1882 silver is significant. 1882 would was the 150th anniversary of Washington’s birth, which could account for the selection of the host coin.
Second, the Washington portrait looks familiar because, like the majority of the well-executed depictions of Washington, it is based upon the image by Houdon. Houdon’s work is so widely respected that artists who were invited to submit designs for the Washington quarter were required to use it as the basis for their work.
I’m surprised that this piece is not listed in Medallic Portraits of Washington by Rulau and Fuld. One would have thought that the piece would have been included since an example had appeared in a Pine Tree auction. Although these auctions are generally forgotten today, they were of some importance back in the mid 1970s.
What an interesting discussion! Always learning something new on this board.
1997 Matte Nickel strike thru U
"Error Collector- I Love Dem Crazy Coins"
"Money, what is money? It is loaned to a man; he comes into the world with nothing and he leaves with nothing." Billy Durant. Founder of General Motors. He died a pauper.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
<< <i>Interesting to note that the bust is surrounded by 35 stars. Could this possibly provide a clue as to the origin of the counterstrike? >>
Don't think so, but a good conjecture. Nevada joined the union as the 36th state in 1864, eighteen years before this coin was minted. So it wouldn't be an indicator of the number of states in the union at the time.
<< <i>is it for sale? >>
Not at this time. I am trying to convince the current owner to sell it to me. Then it will definitely not be for sale.
sadly, whenever something like this shows up the thread hits page two in a few hours and gets lost. perhaps if we TTT this someone who can help identify it will notice.