Codder, I am a very fair unbiased person I just dont read into what you read into that editorial. I guess thats why we live in the USA everyone has their own opinion and views of the samething.
"Well here's another nice mess you have gotten me into" Oliver Hardy 1930
You got a chance to convert me to your side..... does that law dictionary of yours define 'First Strike'? If so, please share. Or.... do you have any statutes, laws, etc. that you can quote what the term 'First Strike' means? Or anything else that would hold up in a court of law? If so , please share. General numismatic references do not count.... they are just opinions just like yours and mine. Even if they are 'generally accepted standards'. Grading also has generally accepted standards, and look at the variance you can find in that. I would like to see some reference with some 'teeth' in it.... if you can provide some reference like that, which would result with a judge in a court of law to pound down his gavel and say, "Codder, you WIN!" then I will concede.
To me, the bottom line is, we all pick the issues that we want to fight about. The First Strike designation is meaningless to me, and I could care less. But if it is that important to you, then certainly keep persuing contacting PCGS. Also, if it were truely fraud like you think it to be, I'm sure there are lawyers out there who would love to do a class action suit. I just don't think you will get anywhere.
<< <i>Without verification from the press operator or a great deal of study, it is virtually impossible to identify the first coin struck from individual die pairs >>
Most specialist can spot first strikes at a glance. It is true that this is learned, however.
There is definitely a mountain being made of a molehill here. Most experienced collectors are well aware of what is meant by the TPG's when they say "first strike'. Even The Coin Vault has gone into detailed descriptions which are highly accurate to pass this along. There is no evidence this label is doing anything to affect the price of the coins. While it can be thought of as deceptive by some, it simply is an open secret.
Coin world is well within their rights to print the story and it is very relevant and of interest to the market. But it is not a big deal. It is not a big deal to anyone except perhaps a few who are dealing in or buying these coins and don't know.
It is a mere marketing gimmick. There are worse ones in the hobby.
I'm all for sprited debate, but codder's vulgarity reduces his credibilty to zero and makes him a first-class troll. >>
I agree but disagree that it's all Codder's fault.
There's an earlier post of Codder's I missed;
<< <i>
Here's the message I just tried to send to David Hall:
"In light of the facts that Coin World in their latest issue has documented regarding TGP "First Strike" programs, do you feel that modifications should be made to more accurately describe coins that can not be shown, by even PCGS's new definition, to be truly "First Strike" coins. What will PCGS do to comfort purchasers of these coins that they have not been victims of a fraudulent marketing campaign?
Thank you."
>>
shortened. possibly relevant material to another point deleted.
I'm guessing this was posted to the Q&A forum and he didn't know that these question don't appear at all until they are answered. (probably for just this sort of reason
I cannot believe Coin World attacked "First Strike" when they allow their advertisers to use discredited grades such as "Borderline Uncirculated," etc.
I happen to agree that perhaps the term "First Release" would be more accurate and probably even more relevant.
I truly believe Coin World needs a spanking to get them to clean the rules of their advertisers terminology FIRST!
<< <i>I cannot believe Coin World attacked "First Strike" when they allow their advertisers to use discredited grades such as "Borderline Uncirculated," etc.
I happen to agree that perhaps the term "First Release" would be more accurate and probably even more relevant.
I truly believe Coin World needs a spanking to get them to clean the rules of their advertisers terminology FIRST!
I read the piece and yes, they call into question WHY they call them First Strikes when, by definition, a first strike is the 'first coin struck'. ANACS and ICG also offer the service, as stated in the piece. PCGS has their trademark, and they have a specific- definition of what THEY call 'First Strike'. They ALL have their standards as to definition, and if the collecting community accepts it, fine, if not, oh well, another idea shot to sh*t. And, as the piece said, if it's NOT from a properly dated box, the owner must get documentation to prove it's from the accepted time period....would THAT actually be worth it for a freakin' designation on bullion??? I don't think so. I see it more as an informational piece, that, yes, QUESTIONS why, but one would be hard pressed to actually say they walked away from that piece thinking CoinWorld is all but saying it's fraudulent.
edited to add: codder, are you TECHED IN THA HAYED egging some of these guys on? Your stay won't be a pleasant one...lol
<< <i>All I want to know is who will be the first to wear down a "First Strike" to P01 and get it slabbed as such? ("First Strike P01") >>
How bout this one. Who'is going to be the first to crack out a MS69 First Strike and send it in and it comes back a MS70 First Strike?
Seriously, I might buy a First Strike ASE and crack it out and send it in just to see what it will come back. Did anybody catch the one AuldFartte posted earlier? That looked like it might body bag!
"How bout this one. Who'is going to be the first to crack out a MS69 First Strike and send it in and it comes back a MS70 First Strike?"
Justin, my 14 1/2 year old son, has already cracked out more than (20) MS69 FS coins and upgraded them to MS70 this Summer alone. He is "blessed" with the ability to fairly easily differentiate an MS69 from an MS70 coin - anytime you are in S. CA, set up a lunch with me and we'll put him to the test. And, to those who suggest it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between an MS69 and MS70 coin - you haven't met Justin
Wondercoin (proud Dad)
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Wondercoin, that's pretty cool. He definitely has the knack. Is there a way to get the 70 from a MS69 First Strike crackout to come back with a First Strike designation? If so, how does that happen? That's what I was getting at....or say joking about
<< <i>I've always thought that first strike designations are complete nonsense.... but then, I think most marketing I come into contact with day to day is complete nonsense...... >>
If you order a raw coin from a reputable dealer he characterizes as MS65, and you receive the coin and in your opinion the coin is no more than MS63, does that constitute fraud?
<< <i>Justin, my 14 1/2 year old son, has already cracked out more than (20) MS69 FS coins and upgraded them to MS70 this Summer alone. He is "blessed" with the ability to fairly easily differentiate an MS69 from an MS70 coin . . . . >>
Morpheus: We've done it, Trinity. We've found him. Trinity: I hope you're right. Morpheus: You don't have to hope. I know it.
<< <i>If you order a raw coin from a reputable dealer he characterizes as MS65, and you receive the coin and in your opinion the coin is no more than MS63, does that constitute fraud? >>
No. It constitutes a difference of opinion. Now, if the dealer represented a coin as MS65 and sent you a F15 you might have a case for fraud.
<< <i>Justin, my 14 1/2 year old son, has already cracked out more than (20) MS69 FS coins and upgraded them to MS70 this Summer alone. He is "blessed" with the ability to fairly easily differentiate an MS69 from an MS70 coin - anytime you are in S. CA, set up a lunch with me and we'll put him to the test. And, to those who suggest it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between an MS69 and MS70 coin - you haven't met Justin
<< <i>Justin, my 14 1/2 year old son, has already cracked out more than (20) MS69 FS coins and upgraded them to MS70 this Summer alone. He is "blessed" with the ability to fairly easily differentiate an MS69 from an MS70 coin . . . . >>
Morpheus: We've done it, Trinity. We've found him. Trinity: I hope you're right. Morpheus: You don't have to hope. I know it.
If I trade you one of my buffaloes that I can prove with a receipt I bought July 6th for one of your buffaloes that you bought with a receipt on Aug 1st, and then I submitted the buffaloe I got from you to PCGS with my original receipt of July 6th, do you think they would recognize the difference? Not!
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
For all those cheering PCGS I'm a bit confused. I do understand that it is their playground and their rules, but to cheer this is a bit odd. I find no merit in these first strike holders. Using the acceptable terms as stated...they are nonsense at best and are no benefit to the collector community. How many collectors have bought something that is not what they believe it to be. Yeah, I know that PCGS doesn't hide their definition (which does not match the historically accepted numismatic definition) but I can assure you the dealer community is selling these as something completely different than the PCGS definition. Bottom line, it is my opinion that these "First Strike" slabs are bad for the hobby I love. I am hereby requesting that PCGS put an end to these slabs, or at a minimum place a disclaimer on the slab defining "First Strike"..
<< <i>OK...here are the rules...and you know them already...
If you want to say what we do is "nonesense," that's OK. But if you call what we do fraud, you're outta here.
Goodbye Codder.
By the way, we think mdwoods comment,
"Coin World has a lot of gall saying anything about a marketing ploy given the reputation of some of their advertisers."
is the most appropriate of all.
Ron Guth and David Hall >>
Mr. Guth and Mr. Hall,
According to your post, you seem to endorse the idea that the First Strike designation is a marketing ploy. To me, "ploy" carries a negative connotation, especially when it is carried out by PCGS, leaders in coin certification, who hold important position of trust in the coin world. How can PCGS get behind the notion of a First Strike definition that is by all accounts truly novel, at least by traditional numismatic understanding?
<< <i>For all those cheering PCGS I'm a bit confused. I do understand that it is their playground and their rules, but to cheer this is a bit odd. I find no merit in these first strike holders. Using the acceptable terms as stated...they are nonsense at best and are no benefit to the collector community. How many collectors have bought something that is not what they believe it to be. Yeah, I know that PCGS doesn't hide their definition (which does not match the historically accepted numismatic definition) but I can assure you the dealer community is selling these as something completely different than the PCGS definition. Bottom line, it is my opinion that these "First Strike" slabs are bad for the hobby I love. I am hereby requesting that PCGS put an end to these slabs, or at a minimum place a disclaimer on the slab defining "First Strike".. >>
Really it's because I thought that Codder guy was quite annoying.
Comments
BST successful dealings with:MsMorrisine, goldman86
You got a chance to convert me to your side..... does that law dictionary of yours define 'First Strike'? If so, please share. Or.... do you have any statutes, laws, etc. that you can quote what the term 'First Strike' means? Or anything else that would hold up in a court of law? If so , please share. General numismatic references do not count.... they are just opinions just like yours and mine. Even if they are 'generally accepted standards'. Grading also has generally accepted standards, and look at the variance you can find in that. I would like to see some reference with some 'teeth' in it.... if you can provide some reference like that, which would result with a judge in a court of law to pound down his gavel and say, "Codder, you WIN!" then I will concede.
To me, the bottom line is, we all pick the issues that we want to fight about. The First Strike designation is meaningless to me, and I could care less. But if it is that important to you, then certainly keep persuing contacting PCGS. Also, if it were truely fraud like you think it to be, I'm sure there are lawyers out there who would love to do a class action suit. I just don't think you will get anywhere.
it would appear you are all set to be the pivot man.
What exactly does the "pivot man" do in a circle jerk?
<< <i>Without verification from the press operator or a great deal of study, it is virtually impossible to identify the first coin struck from individual die pairs >>
Most specialist can spot first strikes at a glance. It is true that this is learned, however.
There is definitely a mountain being made of a molehill here. Most experienced collectors
are well aware of what is meant by the TPG's when they say "first strike'. Even The Coin
Vault has gone into detailed descriptions which are highly accurate to pass this along. There
is no evidence this label is doing anything to affect the price of the coins. While it can be thought
of as deceptive by some, it simply is an open secret.
Coin world is well within their rights to print the story and it is very relevant and of interest
to the market. But it is not a big deal. It is not a big deal to anyone except perhaps a few who
are dealing in or buying these coins and don't know.
It is a mere marketing gimmick. There are worse ones in the hobby.
<< <i>
It was only $2.00 over the premium for a nice protective case. So i grabbed a few of them. >>
I bought one for the same reason. In essence it got graded and encapsulated by PCGS for $2.
If I submitted it myself, it would have cost $14 plus shipping both ways. Please call the coin posse to save me from this horrible "fraud"
Here's the link!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>What exactly does the "pivot man" do in a circle jerk? >>
He's the guy who has to eat the cracker.
Russ, NCNE
I'm all for sprited debate, but codder's vulgarity reduces his credibilty to zero and makes him a first-class troll.
<< <i>This thread sucks.
I'm all for sprited debate, but codder's vulgarity reduces his credibilty to zero and makes him a first-class troll. >>
I agree but disagree that it's all Codder's fault.
There's an earlier post of Codder's I missed;
<< <i>
Here's the message I just tried to send to David Hall:
"In light of the facts that Coin World in their latest issue has documented regarding TGP "First Strike" programs, do you feel that modifications should be made to more accurately describe coins that can not be shown, by even PCGS's new definition, to be truly "First Strike" coins. What will PCGS do to comfort purchasers of these coins that they have not been victims of a fraudulent marketing campaign?
Thank you."
>>
shortened. possibly relevant material to another point deleted.
I'm guessing this was posted to the Q&A forum and he didn't know that these question
don't appear at all until they are answered. (probably for just this sort of reason
I happen to agree that perhaps the term "First Release" would be more accurate and probably even more relevant.
I truly believe Coin World needs a spanking to get them to clean the rules of their advertisers terminology FIRST!
Besides, I like my coins LAST struck anyway!
<< <i>I cannot believe Coin World attacked "First Strike" when they allow their advertisers to use discredited grades such as "Borderline Uncirculated," etc.
I happen to agree that perhaps the term "First Release" would be more accurate and probably even more relevant.
I truly believe Coin World needs a spanking to get them to clean the rules of their advertisers terminology FIRST!
Besides, I like my coins LAST struck anyway! >>
Next to last are usually a better buy
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
edited to add: codder, are you TECHED IN THA HAYED egging some of these guys on? Your stay won't be a pleasant one...lol
All I want to know is who will be the first to wear down a "First Strike" to P01 and get it slabbed as such? ("First Strike P01")
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>All I want to know is who will be the first to wear down a "First Strike" to P01 and get it slabbed as such? ("First Strike P01")
How bout this one. Who'is going to be the first to crack out a MS69 First Strike and send it in and it comes back a MS70 First Strike?
Seriously, I might buy a First Strike ASE and crack it out and send it in just to see what it will come back. Did anybody catch the one AuldFartte posted earlier? That looked like it might body bag!
Jerry
Justin, my 14 1/2 year old son, has already cracked out more than (20) MS69 FS coins and upgraded them to MS70 this Summer alone. He is "blessed" with the ability to fairly easily differentiate an MS69 from an MS70 coin - anytime you are in S. CA, set up a lunch with me and we'll put him to the test. And, to those who suggest
it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between an MS69 and MS70 coin - you haven't met Justin
Wondercoin (proud Dad)
Jerry
<< <i>I've always thought that first strike designations are complete nonsense.... but then, I think most marketing I come into contact with day to day is complete nonsense......
TorinoCobra71
<< <i>Justin, my 14 1/2 year old son, has already cracked out more than (20) MS69 FS coins and upgraded them to MS70 this Summer alone. He is "blessed" with the ability to fairly easily differentiate an MS69 from an MS70 coin . . . . >>
Morpheus: We've done it, Trinity. We've found him.
Trinity: I hope you're right.
Morpheus: You don't have to hope. I know it.
He is The One.
<< <i>If you order a raw coin from a reputable dealer he characterizes as MS65, and you receive the coin and in your opinion the coin is no more than MS63, does that constitute fraud? >>
No. It constitutes a difference of opinion. Now, if the dealer represented a coin as MS65 and sent you a F15 you might have a case for fraud.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Justin, my 14 1/2 year old son, has already cracked out more than (20) MS69 FS coins and upgraded them to MS70 this Summer alone. He is "blessed" with the ability to fairly easily differentiate an MS69 from an MS70 coin - anytime you are in S. CA, set up a lunch with me and we'll put him to the test. And, to those who suggest
it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between an MS69 and MS70 coin - you haven't met Justin
Wondercoin (proud Dad) >>
I'm assuming that this NGC we are talking about?
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>Justin, my 14 1/2 year old son, has already cracked out more than (20) MS69 FS coins and upgraded them to MS70 this Summer alone. He is "blessed" with the ability to fairly easily differentiate an MS69 from an MS70 coin . . . . >>
Morpheus: We've done it, Trinity. We've found him.
Trinity: I hope you're right.
Morpheus: You don't have to hope. I know it.
He is The One.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>No because unless it is on the unopened box it's worthless. You just send in a buffalo with that receipt and they won't first strike it. >>
I guess I didn't read where the box has to be unopened. That disqualifies me
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Russ, NCNE
Carol
<< <i>OK...here are the rules...and you know them already...
If you want to say what we do is "nonesense," that's OK. But if you call what we do fraud, you're outta here.
Goodbye Codder.
By the way, we think mdwoods comment,
"Coin World has a lot of gall saying anything about a marketing ploy given the reputation of some of their advertisers."
is the most appropriate of all.
Ron Guth and David Hall >>
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
<< <i>By the way, we think mdwoods comment,
"Coin World has a lot of gall saying anything about a marketing ploy given the reputation of some of their advertisers."
is the most appropriate of all. >>
Hey now! Don't I get any props? I put a lot of effort in to slamming codder!
Russ, NCNE
You da man Russ!
"Welcome Back Codder" ??
Class, does anyone know the definition of fraud...
Horshack: Oooooooh!
<< <i>Goodbye Codder. We never got the chance to know you
If he came back--which I'm sure he won't--we could all say "Welcome back, Codder."
...for all you 70s people.
Edited: Somebody beat me to it.
Way to go Russ good job.
No really I mean it
If i didn't I would have used quotes
(sarcasm)(/sarcasm)
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>OK...here are the rules...and you know them already...
If you want to say what we do is "nonesense," that's OK. But if you call what we do fraud, you're outta here.
Goodbye Codder.
By the way, we think mdwoods comment,
"Coin World has a lot of gall saying anything about a marketing ploy given the reputation of some of their advertisers."
is the most appropriate of all.
Ron Guth and David Hall >>
Mr. Guth and Mr. Hall,
According to your post, you seem to endorse the idea that the First Strike designation is a marketing ploy. To me, "ploy" carries a negative connotation, especially when it is carried out by PCGS, leaders in coin certification, who hold important position of trust in the coin world. How can PCGS get behind the notion of a First Strike definition that is by all accounts truly novel, at least by traditional numismatic understanding?
Thank you.
Russ, NCNE
What IS this world coming to?
Oh, the shame. THE SHAME!
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>For all those cheering PCGS I'm a bit confused. I do understand that it is their playground and their rules, but to cheer this is a bit odd. I find no merit in these first strike holders. Using the acceptable terms as stated...they are nonsense at best and are no benefit to the collector community. How many collectors have bought something that is not what they believe it to be. Yeah, I know that PCGS doesn't hide their definition (which does not match the historically accepted numismatic definition) but I can assure you the dealer community is selling these as something completely different than the PCGS definition. Bottom line, it is my opinion that these "First Strike" slabs are bad for the hobby I love. I am hereby requesting that PCGS put an end to these slabs, or at a minimum place a disclaimer on the slab defining "First Strike".. >>
Really it's because I thought that Codder guy was quite annoying.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA