Is this a good deal? High End Rare coins

ocstockpicker · July 17, 2006 10:51AM

I'm interested in what you all would do in this case, I have a chance to buy a coin

1. 1929 $2.5 Indian Gold Coin PCGS MS65 $7200.00

ocstockpicker · July 17, 2006 10:58AM

and a 1908-D $20 St. Gaudens PCGS MS65 No motto for $7800.00 both for $15,000.00

please respond

jayboxx · July 17, 2006 11:00AM

Doesn't seem too bad, depends on the coin of course. Checking prices at Heritage shows the last three MS65's Indians sold went for:

June 2005: $7475
April 2006: $8337
July 2006: $11500

Sign up for a free account at Heritage and you can view all of the past auction results.

MikeInFL · July 17, 2006 11:03AM

Unless I were confident in my ability to grade or knew someone I trusted who did, I would not buy it.

Absent evidence to the contrary, a coin this cheap is probably cheap for a reason.

Lastly, I would not buy it unless I had a return privilege...Mike

ocstockpicker · July 17, 2006 11:04AM

heritage, where is this?

Scavenger · July 17, 2006 11:06AM

I trust that you're not buying these without seeing them in hand first.

MikeInFL · July 17, 2006 11:06AM

Click me for Heritage

ocstockpicker · July 17, 2006 11:07AM

No' I'm buying them from someone with a very good history.

jayboxx · July 17, 2006 11:07AM

Heritage link

ocstockpicker · July 17, 2006 11:09AM

thank you

ocstockpicker · July 17, 2006 11:50AM

any more opinions

Text

MrEureka · July 17, 2006 12:01PM

any more opinions

Sounds like you're new to the game. I'll give you the same advice I'd give someone visiting a casino for the first time: keep your bets as small as possible and plan on losing some money. You can bet the big money later, after you learn the ropes.

SamByrd · July 17, 2006 12:02PM

decent prices at perhaps a little below retail if they are nice for the grade all ms65's are not created equal.

ocstockpicker · July 17, 2006 12:08PM

I am new to the game and I want to buy high grade gold coins that will appreciate over time and demand is pretty good. What would be a safe collection to start with that would keep my losses minimal?

ocstockpicker · July 17, 2006 12:12PM

this collection is going to be a longer term investment

coinguy1 · July 17, 2006 12:18PM

<< I'm interested in what you all would do in this case, I have a chance to buy a coin

1. 1929 $2.5 Indian Gold Coin PCGS MS65 $7200.00 >>

I sold a very nice PCGS MS65 $2.50 Indian to a client for $4800 last week. Perhaps I should have charged a bit more, but even so, $7200 sounds WAY too high. That tells me all I need to know to suggest that you pass on coins from that dealer. Also, I'd urge you not to spend any $ on coins until you learn far more about them, current rarity and values and the many pitfallls of "investing" in them.

CarlWohlforth · July 17, 2006 12:20PM

Coins are not necessarily a good investment. They don't produce income. They will only go up if demand continues to increase. You can't guarantee that.

The people who lose the least in this hobby are the ones who learn the most. The old saw is "read the book before buying the coin."

jpkinla · July 17, 2006 12:43PM

I studied a lot before I started buying $100,000 coins....I suggest you acquire some good books on gold like any of David Aker's books and/or Doug Winters and/or David Bowers....Also FYI there is a brand new book by Jeff Garrett on gold coins and I would suggest that be the first investment.....

Coins are a great hobby AND great investment when done correctly....

MikeInFL · July 17, 2006 12:47PM

<< any more opinions

Text >>

Yes, re-read Andy and Mark's posts....Mike

MrEureka · July 17, 2006 12:53PM

ocstockpicker - Please tell us why you think now is a good time to buy coins. Also, why are you focused on "high grade gold coins"? Was this your idea or someone else's?

zenny · July 17, 2006 12:59PM

click on JPKINLA's first ($10 indian) link if you want to know why you should listen to his advice.

(when you get there, take the time to go thru the photos of the indians, it is truly an awesome collection.)

good luck

Elcontador · July 17, 2006 1:04PM

Most of us long time type collectors are priced out of the market right now, prices are that high. I am unwilling to pay the prices that some others will gladly pay now for nice, pre-1835 type, so I am out of the market for most thing at present.

I know nothing about gold, but I'll bet things are more similar than different re what I wrote above.

DaveG · July 17, 2006 1:21PM

ocstockpicker:

My opinion: If you have to ask us if this is a good deal, then you shouldn't be buying these coins.

Coins are like any other antique or piece of artwork (or the stock market, for that matter): quality is everything, condition is everything, knowing who you're dealing with is everything. New players get skinned alive if they forget this.

My advice: Read "Coin Collector's Survival Manual" by Scott Travers and then ask a lot of questions before you commit this kind of money.

oreville · July 17, 2006 1:41PM

Agreed,

re-read coinguy1's and MrEureka's posts.

Invaluable advice.

rec78 · July 17, 2006 2:18PM

JUST ASK LAURA !

cladking · July 17, 2006 2:36PM

Some of these guys who have given you this advice could be selling you coins instead. It is wise to heed it.

If you need to hurry to buy something it may well be risky, anyway.

Sunnywood · July 17, 2006 3:03PM

**** If you didn't know who or what Heritage is, you should not UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be spending that kind of money on coins. You will get fleeced. ****

FIRST educate yourself, go to coin shows, subscribe to a few numismatic publications like Coin World, familiarize yourself with the major auction houses, and browse through their current catalogs. Look at lots of coins and learn about grading and eye appeal. At the very least, learn that newcomers should never stray beyond PCGS and NGC certified coins ...

Yikes !!!

Best,
Sunnywood

michael · July 17, 2006 3:42PM

: Is this a good deal?

NO

ocstockpicker · July 17, 2006 3:51PM

You are correct it's not my idea but I've been following a very knowledgeable investor that i found 4 years ago and he has called the markets to a tee and has been around the markets for 43 years. He is recommending MS65 rare coins Gold as the next investment mania. I understand coins have risen far in the last few years but according to him the US government has recently made all coins under MS65 confiscateable in the event of a global crises, like what happened in 1933 & 1955(don't quote me on the year)

through June 30
1. International Harry Schultz Letter
2. Outstanding Investments
3. The Ruff Times
+94.9%
+72.2%
+69.4%

rec78 · July 17, 2006 3:57PM

the US government has recently made all coins under MS65 confiscateable in the event of a global crises

granddad · July 17, 2006 4:10PM

Cows may come and cows may go, but the bull around here seemingly goes on forever. The MS65 theory would however insure the safety of most modern bullion coins.

Have a Great Day!
Louis

ocstockpicker · July 17, 2006 4:25PM

Please explain i don't get it?

Tarmac · July 17, 2006 4:53PM

Please explain i don't get it?

You came here seeking advice and you got some excellent advice but it's not what you wanted to hear.

When you go out and buy coins be sure to also get a large jar of vasoline. You are going to need it.

Coindexter · July 17, 2006 5:30PM

<< but according to him the US government has recently made all coins under MS65 confiscateable in the event of a global crises, like what happened in 1933 >>

While it may be hypothetically true that the government could someday decide to confiscate gold again, I have two words for you regarding the guy selling these coins to you:

"snake oil."

Run, don't walk, away from him. I am not trying to be negative or cynical. My reasoning for this strong admonishment is that this person obviously relies on hype to sell numismatic items, and at a pretty substantial mark up to boot.

Coins are for collectors. Investors seem to have a hard time making money in coins because by the time they have enough numismatic knowledge to invest with confidence they are collectors.

In summation, it is possible to make sound numismatic investments, but only if you truly do you homework. Just as in the stock market. You wouldn't buy thousands of dollars worth of an unknown company's stock without even looking at their balance sheet would you?

kranky · July 17, 2006 9:41PM

<< according to him the US government has recently made all coins under MS65 confiscateable in the event of a global crises >>

No, that's not true. Perhaps other things he has said aren't true either.

There has been some great advice in this thread already, but let me add one more item since you're looking at investment. There are three ways to lose money on coins - getting less than full value when you sell, thinking that all coins with the same grade are worth the same amount, and overpaying when you buy.

There is no definitive price guide for coins. Every coin is unique and even coins that grade the same can have much different values. That's the number-one issue, I feel, for new collectors who want to acquire valuable coins. Take the example from this thread - the last three MS65 $2.5 Indians that Heritage sold were all over $7400. You can buy one for $7200. Sounds good? Then you find out coinguy1 sold one for $4800. Still sound good? The fact is that it's possible every one of those coins sold for fair value. If you overpay when you buy, the coins you buy could go up 30% and you STILL wouldn't break even if you sold.

Please, please read the book that DaveG recommended - "The Coin Collectors Survival Manual" - before you do anything else. There has been very, very good advice offered in this thread. I hope you take it to heart before buying coins.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 17, 2006 10:21PM

welcome ocstockpicker.

No, it's not necessarily a good deal. ARE high graded GOLD US COINS a good investment ? YES
if you can get a good deal.

You learn a lot faster when you lose. Know your adversary.... it's the guy telling you how great his thing is and why it's worth twice as much as another guy's even though it's half as long.

Joe

edit to add: and just so I don't sound sexist, sometimes it's a gal selling her ORBS

just be careful or you will be on the SHORT end of the thing.

ocstockpicker · July 17, 2006 11:22PM

Ok guys I got the point, the reading begins and Thank you all very much I do appreciate everything said.

ocstockpicker · July 17, 2006 11:23PM

sunny or anyone else can you list some of the auction houses, coin magazines

Longacre · July 17, 2006 11:26PM

Read Books and Ask Questions™

That's Longacre's motto.

coinguy1 · July 17, 2006 11:35PM

It was rightly pointed out to me that the 1929 $2.50 is a better date in MS65 grade and is clearly worth more than the one I sold. My apologies for not having checked it before I posted earlier. That said, my advice would still be the same at this time.

mfcobra · July 18, 2006 12:25AM

<< sunny or anyone else can you list some of the auction houses, coin magazines >>

Teletrade good coin auctions

Coin values-- great magazine, Coin World is a great weekly coin publication. Also read Coin grading and counterfeit detection by John Dannreuther. amos publishing has some good coin resources as well--www.amosadvantage.com

--good luck

Sunnywood · July 18, 2006 12:33AM

Copied from one of my posts in another thread. Browsing the catalogs of major auctions, as well as the inventories and website commentaries of major retail dealers, is a good way to start learning about the market.

Here are links to some of the major auction houses:

American Numismatic Rarities ("ANR")
Spectrum / Bowers & Merena
Ira & Larry Goldberg Coins & Collectibles
Heritage
Scotsman Auctions
Stack's
Superior Galleries

Coins on Ebay
Teletrade (internet auctions only)

Here is a random selection of major retail dealers, including some of my personal favorites:

Anaconda Rare Coins
Albanese Rare Coins
Aspen Park Rare Coins
David Hall Rare Coins
David Lawrence (also holds auctions)
Delaware Valley Rare Coins
Harry Laibstain Rare Coins
J.J. Teaparty
Larry Whitlow Ltd.
Legend Numismatics
North American Certified Trading
Northeast Numismatics
Pinnacle Rarities
Premium Numismatics
Rare Coins of New Hampshire

Additional links:

American Numismatic Association (ANA)
American Numismatic Society (ANS)

ANACS Grading Service
NGC Grading Service
PCGS Grading Service

Coin World
Coin Dealer Newsletter (Greysheet)
NumisMedia
Coin Facts

Best,
Sunnywood

Jcarney · July 18, 2006 12:40AM

<< but according to him the US government has recently made all coins under MS65 confiscateable >>

This is absolutely untrue.

Connecticoin · July 18, 2006 1:46AM

<< I understand coins have risen far in the last few years but according to him the US government has recently made all coins under MS65 confiscateable in the event of a global crises, like what happened in 1933 & 1955(don't quote me on the year)
>>

You should not be getting advice on buying coins from whoever told you this.

bestclser1 · July 18, 2006 1:47AM

Be very very careful.Even some of us that think we know find out we dont,myself included.Read,research and learn.Coins are not for investment purposes,especially as Andy,Mark,and Sunnywood pointed out in their responses.

DMWJR · July 18, 2006 1:58AM

Also, you are not buying truely rare coins here.

1929 $2.50 in MS65 - 95, with 1,006 in MS64.
1908-D $20.00 in MS65 - 134, with 772 in MS64.

These coins will hit the market ofen enough for you to be patient and look at several examples before you purchase. It's somewhat of a widget (don't stone me here!), and coupled with the volitile bullion influence especially on the $20 SG, you increase your risk.

I understand if you have the fever and think you have to buy them now or miss an opportunity, but you are really just taking a gamble until you educate yourself. Don't rely solely on the holder either.

Russ · July 18, 2006 2:38AM

<< but according to him the US government has recently made all coins under MS65 confiscateable in the event of a global crises >>

Is this guy a regular guest on Art Bell? If the government were going to confiscate gold they wouldn't give a rat's ass what it was graded.

Russ, NCNE

CoinRaritiesOnline · July 18, 2006 2:39AM

I would also add this to your knowledge-collecting efforts: a subscription to the Rosen Numismatic Advisory.

It is written by Maurice Rosen, and has been awarded "Best Coin Investment Newsletter" many, many times by groups within the Coin Hobby.

I consider Maurice a friend, though I disagree with him that coins should be viewed as an investment (I don't think it is wise to buy coins for investment).

Still, if you are going to do it, I recommend you get the best advice (from numerous sources, not just from the Rosen Numismatic Advisory).

The RNA does not have a web presence to my knowledge, but here is a link to a sample issue on someone else's website (It gives you contact info as well):

Sample Copy of Rosen Numismatic Advisory

ocstockpicker · July 18, 2006 6:05AM

it is in fact true and everyone is this thread should pay attention to it,

January 1,2006 the New definition of of rare coins is MS65 or better, in addition any coin less than a 50% premium over melt the coin is now legally deemed as bullion, thus subjet to confiscation. Look it up!

ocstockpicker · July 18, 2006 6:07AM

what be deemed as truely rare?

coinguy1 · July 18, 2006 6:10AM

<< it is in fact true and everyone is this thread should pay attention to it,

January 1,2006 the New definition of of rare coins is MS65 or better, in addition any coin less than a 50% premium over melt the coin is now legally deemed as bullion, thus subjet to confiscation. Look it up! >>

Ocstockpicker, I don't know where you heard that, but it is incorrect. I challenge you to show us such FACTS in writing.

Is this a good deal? High End Rare coins

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