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How's the market for FBL Frankies these days?

1960NYGiants1960NYGiants Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭✭
I haven't pursued any additions to my set the last two years and am surprised that it remains in the top 35 in the registry.

Has the market cooled for this series?
Gene

Life member #369 of the Royal Canadian Numismatic Association
Member of Canadian Association of Token Collectors

Collector of:
Canadian coins and pre-confederation tokens
Darkside proof/mint sets dated 1960
My Ebay

Comments

  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭
    Been pretty soft for a while now, but there have been some intermittent signs of life.

    Russ, NCNE
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey Gene
    Yes I think Frankies are still in a long hold pattern. They are big silver coins - affordable, and very recognizable. They will see their day, just not yet.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
    not good for some/many

    okie for a few

    and really good for pre 1955 s mint gem ms killer colored coins
  • .........same as they always been if you ask me .............

    I sold some of the finest pieces ever slabbed ,

    collected them for nearly 20 years -

    sold the best 100 or so

    AND WAS LUCKY TO BREAK EVEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!image
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Been pretty soft for a while now, but there have been some intermittent signs of life.

    Russ, NCNE >>

    Sounds like a personal problem image
  • Been pretty soft for a while now...........

    imageimageimageimageimage:
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Been pretty soft for a while now, but there have been some intermittent signs of life.

    Russ, NCNE >>

    Sounds like a personal problem image >>



    Come on now Clad- cut Russ a break , it's a holiday.... No reason at all to poke fun at his little slinky todayimage , besides - I have heard it said that on that soon to be opened "Gay Open Coin Forum" The hottest most in demand icon will be a slinky with Accented Hair image
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • Been pretty soft for a while now...........

    Solution:image
  • DHeathDHeath Posts: 8,472 ✭✭✭
    A few of mine from last week....all $1 open, no reserve

    52-P MS65 FBL

    49-S MS64 no bell lines

    54-P MS64 FBL

    52-D MS64 FBL

    53-S MS65 no bell lines
    Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers
    and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭
    There sure are a lot of smartasses around here.

    Russ, NCNE
  • DD Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭


    << <i>There sure are a lot of smartasses around here.

    Russ, NCNE >>



    No...

    -Daniel
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

    -Aristotle

    Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.

    -Horace
  • morgannut2morgannut2 Posts: 4,293
    I've found the prices all over the place. 100% price variation--same grade:: I've bought a few recently in MS66FL and it depends on the quality. The earlier dates (pre 56) seem very tough nice, either with monster colors or with blast luster and original white skin in top grades. The prices vary depending on if the coin's clean & FBL's are real in the eyes of bidders. I like the liner early date PQMS66FL's with great eye appeal-(shot 67)--but the tons of 65's around right now is driving prices down. I'm not going to worry about values of coins that look like superb gems at these $ levels, and I'm not buying a marginal 53S 64/65FL just for the sake of the PCGS Registry.
    morgannut2
  • bushmaster8bushmaster8 Posts: 5,616
    PCGS's inability to consistently apply their FBL standard over the years has severely hindered this market.

    There are literally thousands and thousands of FBL Franklins out there that are not really FBL by the standard as applied by PCGS today.image

    It's a sad situation. If you know your stuff, it's a buyers market.

    But the newcomers will suffer with overpaying for a lot of coins at the FBL price, when in reality, if those coins were cracked out and resubmitted, would not get the FBL designation. Buy the coin...
    "Wars are really ugly! They're dirty
    and they're cold.
    I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
    Mary






    Best Franklin Website
  • ...amen
  • MyqqyMyqqy Posts: 9,777
    PCGS's inability to consistently apply their FBL standard over the years has severely hindered this market.

    It seems to me that it should be pretty easy to be consistent with an FBL standard.... image
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
  • morgannut2morgannut2 Posts: 4,293


    << <i>PCGS's inability to consistently apply their FBL standard over the years has severely hindered this market.

    There are literally thousands and thousands of FBL Franklins out there that are not really FBL by the standard as applied by PCGS today.image

    It's a sad situation. If you know your stuff, it's a buyers market.

    But the newcomers will suffer with overpaying for a lot of coins at the FBL price, when in reality, if those coins were cracked out and resubmitted, would not get the FBL designation. Buy the coin... >>


    ---------------
    ---------------
    image Well said!!---Perhaps there will be a bonus for NEW holders oneday--meanwhile I'll keep selectively cherrypicking.
    morgannut2
  • quote from Rick Montgomery :

    "About 85 % of the Franklin Half Dollars PCGS certify`s fall into the no-brainer category when being designated.
    The grading dilemmas and occassional controversies are created by the other 15% of the coins.

    Sometimes the bell lines are 95 % complete with a hint of the other 5 % in evidence, challenging the grader to make the call
    : is it FBL or isn`t it ? Sometimes there`s a contact mark parrallel to the bell lines and therefor dosn`t break the visual continuity but does obscure the lines, leaving the grader with an unanswerable question : Were the lines full beneath that mark ?


    Fortunatley,the overwhelming majority of the marketplace understands this and does not demand total, unbending, riged , frozen objectivity . "


  • << <i>There sure are a lot of smartasses around here.

    what is that about the pot calling the kettle.... oh forget it...

    image
    There is nothing more powerful than the power of goodbye
  • ccexccex Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭
    Is it safe to say that no one is buying FBL Franklins in MS-64 or less at a premium for FBL unless the coin is 1953-S?
    "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
  • ...i would not say no one ...............but few , if any !
  • hey Russ ............... R Montgomery said , "unbending, riged " imageimageimage
  • StratStrat Posts: 612 ✭✭✭
    I started a set earlier this year, and have been compiling prices in a spreadsheet for PCGS Franklins in MS64FBL and MS65FBL. It's been a lot of work, but since I was dissatisfied with the various price guides, I needed something more reliable. The prices are what I've observed for actual sales through Teletrade, EBay and the major auction houses, as well as my own purchases at shows. Attached is a link to a copy of the spreadsheet, send a pm if you can't see it, and I'll email one to you. Hope the info. helps, it is very much a work in progress, and I haven't been able to update it for two months. If anyone has a price for fbl 53-S based on a recent sale, let me know, as I haven't observed a single one selling this year.

    Excel Spreadsheet with Averages

    Text file - delimited
  • morgannut2morgannut2 Posts: 4,293
    A 1953S in MS65FBL? There's one for the July 8th Heritage Sale, lot 2613, that has recently met the reserve with a bid of $15,000 (total hammer-$17,250). I remember one at last Bowers/Merena Baltimore Sale too--but don't remember the bid or if it no saled.
    morgannut2
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭


    << <i>If anyone has a price for fbl 53-S based on a recent sale, let me know, as I haven't observed a single one selling this year. >>



    Besides the MS65 currently in the Heritage sale, the only other FBL I've seen sell recently was an MS63 that brought $4600 plus the juice on Teletrade back in February.

    Russ, NCNE
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A dealer I know in Boston summed up full bell line Franklins pretty well. He characterized them as “a gimmick” and pretty much of a “one way market.” (You can buy ‘em, but you can’t sell ‘em.”)

    I feel much the same way about full split bans Mercury dimes, but a lot of collectors don’t agree with me on that one.

    The premium coin for strike that REALLY is legitimate is the full head Standing Liberty Quarter. These coins really are FAR more attractive when they are well struck. Still I think too much emphasis is placed on the head. Having a well struck shield and gown are good things too.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,307 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>A dealer I know in Boston summed up full bell line Franklins pretty well. He characterized them as “a gimmick” and pretty much of a “one way market.” (You can buy ‘em, but you can’t sell ‘em.”)

    I feel much the same way about full split bans Mercury dimes, but a lot of collectors don’t agree with me on that one.

    The premium coin for strike that REALLY is legitimate is the full head Standing Liberty Quarter. These coins really are FAR more attractive when they are well struck. Still I think too much emphasis is placed on the head. Having a well struck shield and gown are good things too. >>



    They're no more a gimmick than FS nickels. They'll probably be back in the future just as the
    nickels will be dead at some time in the future. At the current time there are just more collec-
    tors selling than buying. It's difficult to believe that this will be the case indefinitely.
    Tempus fugit.
  • bushmaster8bushmaster8 Posts: 5,616


    << <i>Is it safe to say that no one is buying FBL Franklins in MS-64 or less at a premium for FBL unless the coin is 1953-S? >>



    No! That is definitely not the case! There is a very real market for MS64FBL's.
    "Wars are really ugly! They're dirty
    and they're cold.
    I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
    Mary






    Best Franklin Website
  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I started a set earlier this year, and have been compiling prices in a spreadsheet for PCGS Franklins in MS64FBL and MS65FBL. It's been a lot of work, but since I was dissatisfied with the various price guides, I needed something more reliable. The prices are what I've observed for actual sales through Teletrade, EBay and the major auction houses, as well as my own purchases at shows. Attached is a link to a copy of the spreadsheet, send a pm if you can't see it, and I'll email one to you. Hope the info. helps, it is very much a work in progress, and I haven't been able to update it for two months. If anyone has a price for fbl 53-S based on a recent sale, let me know, as I haven't observed a single one selling this year.

    Excel Spreadsheet with Averages

    Text file - delimited >>



    Your spreadsheet is great work, thanks for sharing this information.

    This looks like a bluesheet for Franklins, what coins would trade for on a sight-unseen basis. The vast majority of Franklins on the marketplace lately have been very average at best quality. The nice ones have gone into hiding, no doubt mainly because of softening prices. When they do appear, they can bring 2x to 5x the prices on the list. The price spread is not too unlike many other series, but it is particularly true for Franklins, with reason.

    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • 1960NYGiants1960NYGiants Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭✭
    Strat - Thanks for the excel file.

    All - Thanks for your input. Looks like this is a buyers bargain market. Guess I'll continue to "hold".
    Gene

    Life member #369 of the Royal Canadian Numismatic Association
    Member of Canadian Association of Token Collectors

    Collector of:
    Canadian coins and pre-confederation tokens
    Darkside proof/mint sets dated 1960
    My Ebay
  • StratStrat Posts: 612 ✭✭✭
    Glad to be of help, Gene. Thanks to those of you who provided prices for 53-S, I'll plug that info into my spreadsheet. It's true that nice Franklins will sell for well above the prices I've listed, it's just a matter of knowing the problems/challenges of the series and then knowing when to reach for the right coins. For example, my spreadsheet shows an average price of $735 for a 49D in 65fbl. Anyone who has tried to buy one knows that low price reflects low quality. My original white one cost me much more than that. Knowing the criteria of the grading services is critcal, someone mentioned the liner coins. Only buy those that exhibit strong bell lines. Great thread.
  • ccexccex Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for your work, Strat!

    I left coin collecting in the late '80s with a bad taste in my mouth after buying a bunch of so-called FBL Franklins after reading Jack Ehrmantraut's book on the subject. I soon found FBL Franklins to be a one-way market back then, and your spreadsheet shows the same is largely true today, even in PCGS slabs.

    When I came back to coins, I decided to concentrate on small, ugly, circulated coins too scarce to be promoted by market-makers, and still love my VF-AU Barber Dimes. Recently, I decided to check out a few PCGS FBL Franklins which posters here say are tough in FBL. Your average prices for these are 76% of what I paid for these (although I had to interpolate a price for my PCGS MS-65 1959-P FBL). I guess I'll slink back to my dirty old circulated Barbers!
    "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,307 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Thanks for your work, Strat!

    I left coin collecting in the late '80s with a bad taste in my mouth after buying a bunch of so-called FBL Franklins after reading Jack Ehrmantraut's book on the subject. I soon found FBL Franklins to be a one-way market back then, and your spreadsheet shows the same is largely true today, even in PCGS slabs.

    When I came back to coins, I decided to concentrate on small, ugly, circulated coins too scarce to be promoted by market-makers, and still love my VF-AU Barber Dimes. Recently, I decided to check out a few PCGS FBL Franklins which posters here say are tough in FBL. Your average prices for these are 76% of what I paid for these (although I had to interpolate a price for my PCGS MS-65 1959-P FBL). I guess I'll slink back to my dirty old circulated Barbers! >>



    It's probably no consolation but few collectors in that era did much better. Whether they were
    buying walkers, Morgans, or Franklins most still wouldn't be able to sell at a profit.
    Tempus fugit.


  • << <i>quote from Rick Montgomery :

    "About 85 % of the Franklin Half Dollars PCGS certify`s fall into the no-brainer category when being designated.
    The grading dilemmas and occassional controversies are created by the other 15% of the coins.

    Sometimes the bell lines are 95 % complete with a hint of the other 5 % in evidence, challenging the grader to make the call
    : is it FBL or isn`t it ? Sometimes there`s a contact mark parrallel to the bell lines and therefor dosn`t break the visual continuity but does obscure the lines, leaving the grader with an unanswerable question : Were the lines full beneath that mark ?


    Fortunatley,the overwhelming majority of the marketplace understands this and does not demand total, unbending, riged , frozen objectivity . " >>



    ......o.k then !


  • << <i>Been pretty soft for a while now, but there have been some intermittent signs of life.

    Russ, NCNE >>



    Care to 'splain this sale today:

    2613 Franklin Half Dollars
    1953-S 50C MS65 Full Bell Lines PCGS. This is the premier Franklin half dollar issue when certified with Full Bell Lines, a... Signature PCGS MS65 July 8, 2006 $23,000.00
  • morgannut2morgannut2 Posts: 4,293
    Hmmm 53SFL, simple explation--two Registry collectors.image
    morgannut2
  • I'm going strictly for Proofs Cam/Dcam looks better in my opinion
  • Sure Lucy Ball , i `splain to you ...........

    thats the going rate for a PCGS MS65 FBL 53-S Franklin ; there is huge demand for the coin;

    in fact -if you were to read the plethera of posts and responses regarding the FBL market @ this time

    you would know that the 53-S is exempt from nearly all comments because of it`s extremly low pop

    and heavy demand .

    Then you would not have to ask to have `splained to you what is already common knowlege
    ; and you could continue your obnoxious pursuit of PCGS`s authenticity gaureentee`s


  • << <i>
    ; and you could continue your obnoxious pursuit of PCGS`s authenticity gaureentee`s >>





    Authenticity what? Jeez, you combined misspelling and improper punctuation in one word!!

    Way to go Cosmo!

    Sorry, I just looked at your picture and understand your situation.
  • I just came across this post in another thread. The author of this excerpt has extremely deep pockets, and he gives some insight as to why he doesn't mess with Franklins:

    "For a while, I started collecting the Franklin Halves in Full Bell lines. I find the Franklins very attractive and when well struck, they can be dazzlers. The Full Bell Lines being a metaphor for well struck.

    Well I soon found that the PCGS designations for Full Bell Lines were absurd. Coins that imho weren't even close got the designation. So I couldn't buy sight unseen, and since I live in Asia, I couldn't buy the Franklins at all. So I cleared out of Franklins entirely. " JHF
    "Wars are really ugly! They're dirty
    and they're cold.
    I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
    Mary






    Best Franklin Website
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,307 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I just came across this post in another thread. The author of this excerpt has extremely deep pockets, and he gives some insight as to why he doesn't mess with Franklins:

    "For a while, I started collecting the Franklin Halves in Full Bell lines. I find the Franklins very attractive and when well struck, they can be dazzlers. The Full Bell Lines being a metaphor for well struck.

    Well I soon found that the PCGS designations for Full Bell Lines were absurd. Coins that imho weren't even close got the designation. So I couldn't buy sight unseen, and since I live in Asia, I couldn't buy the Franklins at all. So I cleared out of Franklins entirely. " JHF >>




    It would still be easier to collect them today than it was before 1986. There
    was little option but to buy rolls and bags and look yourself in the old days.

    This could get extremely expensive extremely fast especially if you didn't have
    a way to get out of the rejects.
    Tempus fugit.
  • .........it`s HOT baby ; RED HOT !!!!!!!!!!!!


  • << <i>.........same as they always been if you ask me .............

    I sold some of the finest pieces ever slabbed ,

    collected them for nearly 20 years -

    sold the best 100 or so

    AND WAS LUCKY TO BREAK EVEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!image >>



    Is that because they were slabbed ? .......
  • ........yes; if they had not been slabbed I

    surely would have lost ten`s of thousands of dollars !
  • Here's a couple of perfect examples from Heritage of why FBL Franklins can't get off the ground:

    Sorry, but no way is this FBL PCGS.

    only a moron would pay FBL for these

    actually, not a moron, but a neophyte that does not know any better.

    The moron label in this case belongs to the PCGS graders!
    "Wars are really ugly! They're dirty
    and they're cold.
    I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
    Mary






    Best Franklin Website
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,738 ✭✭✭
    Whenever FLB's discussions come up it reminds me of a dinner I had at the Brassier Grill in I think at the Treasure Island Hotel in Vegas. Great food, but you pay for it. Anyway I asked the waiter for a wine menu becuase there is a particular wine I enjoy, a Margeau. The wine dude came out with an encyclopedia and opened it up to a $865 bottle, I laughed (he frowned) and said I am not in the market for an expensive wine, so after showing me four other listings, finally we got to the $80 bottle and he made a sale. Point being I got the pleasure I was looking for at $80 rather than $865. I couldn't have cared less what the wind dude thought, same thing with FBL's.

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